Does fury need an overhaul?

[Toppy]

To start off, I've played numerous other classes in WoW; rogue, mage, shaman, paladin, warlock, hunter, but my main will always be Warrior. Playing the others though makes something a tad clear: fury is dated and clunky

Arms and Prot rotations and playstyles are much more smooth while still maintaining a bit of finesse that makes better players stand out from worse. But fury on the other hand doesn't flow, it's a very clunky style, pvp wise its crippled by a dated mechanic than no one else relies on that makes them useless (enrage), pve wise its very effective no doubt, but that does not excuse how horrible the spec is to play.

I'm sure many will say that this is a case of "You need to learn how to play it" since, as of now, fury pretty much has the highest skill ceiling among DPS classes (debatable point, but you cant argue that its not difficult to play to its fullest). But the high skill ceiling is more so brought upon by how poor the spec is rather than how difficult it inherently is. This is easily illustrated by comparing to arms: the two pretty much have the same skills, if you've ever switched from one to the other you realize that all you're really doing is changing the name of skills, since so much is a mirror. The only major difference is the heavy reliance on raging blow procs, which the spec revolves around and makes the whole thing a RNG fest. Gameplay of the spec is essentially a game of chance, waiting, and careful juggling of multiple RNG procs.

Due to it being so close to arms, I was curious what others opinions on this were: does fury need an overhaul, and if so, what should it entail? As of now it's a spec based more heavily than any other class on RNG, and also very alike to arms: the two specs being more alike than any other classes various DPS specs (rogue comes close, when speaking on DPS specs that play alike. But compare the DPS specs of other classes, like the hunter specs of the warlock specs, and you get very distinct gameplays, not something you get going from fury to arms or vice versa).



In my own opinion, I'd actually propose to go so far as to get rid of fury and give arms the ability to duel wield. In its place add something new, something that would have to play different: a medium range "throw" spec. Though that's more a pipe dream than anything. If fury would just be able to make itself different in some way other than being a duel wielding roulette then it could stand easily enough on its own (IE: a flat out overhaul, similar to what Warlocks got)

[meteo]

I think the fury playstyle is in the best spot we've ever had. The combination of our critlevel and the CDR trinket make the rotation quite a lot of fun. It's not just mindlessly spamming buttons (see ICC where thinking wasn't required at all but a lot of people call it the golden era of fury just because we did damage but the rotation could be done with both eyes closed....) or compared to the "finesse" [I'm sorry... you really made me laugh] you need to play Arms which is nearly impossible to screw up at the moment because as long as you're using your CS proccs and smash random buttons the remaining time, you'll still play the specc at 95% efficiency.

I don't think a specc is fun to play when there is no challenge at all (Fury, ICC or Arms, now). I really enjoy playing a specc where you get punished for screwing up while at the same time it's possible even for a newer player to play fury at roughly 80% of the potential.


Having stormbolt as a 20sec cooldown and reducing our crit reliance would be all I wish for as far as changes to fury are concerned. Arms on the other hand... I wish it was not as stupid as it is right now.




PS: The only real problem with fury right now is that there is NO good way to make haste scale better with our current rotation. For all people who suggest having our GCD scale with haste etc, please use the forum search and look at the thread dedicated to it

[Deleted]

I agree with meteo. Fury feels very engaging and rewarding for perfect play.

Just remember that you can always go Arms when you prefer a less procc/gear dependant playstyle. This is the beauty of having 2 different specs - making both functioning the same way would destroy that.

[Gestopft]

I like Fury.

Arms is supposed to be measured and methodical; Fury wild and unpredictable. I think overall they've done a good job with the core concepts and differentiating the two DPS specs for Warriors.

Fury can be frustrating at low gear levels, but I find it interesting (and rewarding) that improving your gear can have such a noticeable effect on the rotation.

Also, "dated" isn't the word you are looking for. Fury has been redesigned significantly in the past two expansions. Just because you dislike a mechanic doesn't mean it's "dated."

[Recke]

I'll play the other side.

First, no, please don't get rid of Fury for some medium range spec.

On to the main topic, I don't like Fury, Sam I am. I do not like it with green eggs and ham. I do not like to rely on Crit, I do not like my rotation to sit. I do not like it, Sam I am, I do not like it, not one bit.

It's not a matter of it being 'clunky' or not for me. It's a matter of having to plan. I'm accustomed (from other classes/old mains) for a rotation to be preplanned, to alter your rotation based on the raid needs, or to be some terribly droll First Come, First Serve that makes you feel you have something steady. By some definitions, rotation means a cycle of motion. In it's current iteration, this "cycle" follows a few key abilities with several branches of "if x, do y" which makes it far from smooth, sometimes even not a cycle, as many variables have increasing chances to be delayed the longer the fight goes on. I don't mind thinking, but Fury is in a position where there is almost always something the player could of done better. I have a firm belief in "practice makes perfect, but perfection is unachievable," which makes the concept of a class having too much depth being realistically unreasonable sometimes. I also despise that it overtook Arms all of this expac, so it could be that I just find it stale now, outside of all the variables which don't "freshen" the spec as much as give me a headache.

All in all, I don't think it needs an overhaul, just more of a 'retuning' that mellows out it's playstyle from beginning to end.

[Deleted]

I loved arms back in WotlK, it was messy but challenging, I think it's just boring now and definitely face roll. Fury on the other hand is fun, and requires quite a lot of skill imo. I agree it would be nice if they reduced the RNG factor though.

like the hunter specs of the warlock specs, and you get very distinct gameplays, not something you get going from fury to arms or vice versa).

Sorry, but being my main a hunter I can't help it, you never played one, did you? Hunters have among the most homogenized specs in the game, Blizzard itself stated that. I agree with warlocks, but hunters are just the worst example you could make there. :P

[cFortyfive]

Matter of opinion. While I have my issues with fury I find arms to be the worst spec in this game and not only for its poor performance on anything that isn't an ae fest.
That said I'd still want an overhaul just to change things up again.

[Jalopy]

I don't know what game you're playing that makes exceptional arms play stand out. Either you're hitting buttons or you're not.

[sjsctt]

Fury's play feels rock solid A+ right now to me.

[esoterickk]

Fury feels great with high levels of Crit and the CDR trinket. However, with these 2 gone it's questionable.

Only change to Fury I'd ever like to see is not being so Crit/gear reliant (purely in the case of Challenge modes and areas where gear is scaled down). Warriors have always had gear dependency and I haven't minded that too much, but when content is based on needing to reduce gear levels and our play is significantly hindered, especially in comparison to other classes - it feels like a problem.

The rest is fine to me though.

[Jalopy]

Just give fury a baseline 20% crit + double chance. Tweak the double chance to 1.5-1.8x if necessary, depending on WOD crit levels.

[Vvulf]

Fury is one of those specs (like Boomkin) that sucks pretty hard at low gear levels, and becomes much more rewarding at higher gear levels (towards the middle/end of an expansion).

[Archimtiros]

To start off, I've played numerous other classes in WoW; rogue, mage, shaman, paladin, warlock, hunter, but my main will always be Warrior. Playing the others though makes something a tad clear: fury is dated and clunky

Arms and Prot rotations and playstyles are much more smooth while still maintaining a bit of finesse that makes better players stand out from worse. But fury on the other hand doesn't flow, it's a very clunky style, pvp wise its crippled by a dated mechanic than no one else relies on that makes them useless (enrage), pve wise its very effective no doubt, but that does not excuse how horrible the spec is to play.

I'm sure many will say that this is a case of "You need to learn how to play it" since, as of now, fury pretty much has the highest skill ceiling among DPS classes (debatable point, but you cant argue that its not difficult to play to its fullest). But the high skill ceiling is more so brought upon by how poor the spec is rather than how difficult it inherently is. This is easily illustrated by comparing to arms: the two pretty much have the same skills, if you've ever switched from one to the other you realize that all you're really doing is changing the name of skills, since so much is a mirror. The only major difference is the heavy reliance on raging blow procs, which the spec revolves around and makes the whole thing a RNG fest. Gameplay of the spec is essentially a game of chance, waiting, and careful juggling of multiple RNG procs.

Due to it being so close to arms, I was curious what others opinions on this were: does fury need an overhaul, and if so, what should it entail? As of now it's a spec based more heavily than any other class on RNG, and also very alike to arms: the two specs being more alike than any other classes various DPS specs (rogue comes close, when speaking on DPS specs that play alike. But compare the DPS specs of other classes, like the hunter specs of the warlock specs, and you get very distinct gameplays, not something you get going from fury to arms or vice versa).



In my own opinion, I'd actually propose to go so far as to get rid of fury and give arms the ability to duel wield. In its place add something new, something that would have to play different: a medium range "throw" spec. Though that's more a pipe dream than anything. If fury would just be able to make itself different in some way other than being a duel wielding roulette then it could stand easily enough on its own (IE: a flat out overhaul, similar to what Warlocks got)

You have to be out of your mind. Fury is in a better place than it has ever been with the debatable exception of ICC (and remember the game was much different then, not to mention the playstyle at the time was very simple, although it was engaging due to spam).

Arms on the other hand is not in such a good place. Damage wise, its not bad, but it simply doesn't reward the player for playing well which is an issue many people have with it. Add that to a distinct lack of the frantic/spammy playstyle that is pretty native to most long term warriors, and awkward rage management makes your CS procs feel pretty meh. It's AoE is awesome sure, but limited by such exact positional requirements that it really isn't viable on as much as you'd think.

Fury is almost brand new. Most of our overhauls happened in Cata, but it didn't really start to shine until MoP when most of the fine tuning happened. That's a pretty short time frame as far as WoW class overhauls are concerned. You really could go as far as to say that current Fury is pretty original to MoP.
It does have some gear(stat) requirements, which can be annoying when you are on the low end, but this has been a hallmark of Warriors since the games inception. It has been continually adjusted since then as well, so I don't see that as grounds to overhaul the spec by any means.

I really don't understand how you think Arms and Fury are the same with different spell names. The abilities are almost completely different, and while there are similarities (such as the advanced Heroic Strike Arms rotation), you will find that in every class. They are there by design, to make the specs more familiar, while still retaining some of its own identity. I would imagine it is so that each spec doesn't try to feel like a new class. You have your class defining abilities (Enrage, Colossus Smash for dps, etc), and the abilities that make your spec more individual (sweeping strikes, raging blow). Obviously some classes do it better than others.

Arms and Fury have very different playstyles and feels to them, in my opinion. I would remind you that Rogue, Warrior and DK are all Melee only, so there will be a certain amount of familiarity between their DPS specs. Rogue suffers FAR worse than Warriors, and DK's are pretty good but they have a bit more room to deviate with their emphasis on magic and diseases than pure melee attacks.

Due to it being so close to arms... In my own opinion, I'd actually propose to go so far as to get rid of fury and give arms the ability to duel wield.

Paraphrasing, but this has to be the worst thing I've read on these forums in quite some time. Not only would a dual wield Arms spec necessitate its own spec overhaul, it would suffer from the same problems as Frost DK's with the constant need for theorycraft and "sub-spec" changes to stay optimal. Personally I think giving that choice is the worst thing ever done with the Spec (from a HC raiders point of view). It essentially forces you to juggle two specs in one.

But aside from that, as I outlined above in a very rambling sort of way. Fury is in the best spot of its existence where as Arms is simply present; but neither need an overhaul. When played and understood correctly, they are both pretty different. About as far apart as they could get while maintaining the same core mechanics.

Fury's biggest disadvantage is its RNG at lower levels, but it is actually quite reliable at the higher. If it wasn't, you wouldn't see the same players consistently on top in rankings and would instead you'd see constant shuffle (larger than the normal deviation).

Arm's biggest disadvantage is its lack of engagement. It's honestly a very boring spec to play, and as I said before, unrewarding. Which buttons you press, or even getting extremely good RNG doesn't yield noticeably higher DPS for you to feel it. Fury certainly has RNG and feels frantic, but rewards the careful and calculating player who performs well. You can smash your face on the keyboard and as long as you are not capping rage, and hitting CS on CD, your going to come out with pretty close results.

The difference is Fury's disadvantage is overcome by gear, which is frustrating while gearing up at the end of expansion, is kind of a good thing throught the course of all three tiers. We have seen Fury slowly grow more reliable and more powerful with each expansion and you really get that sense of your character improving with each jump in gear.
Arms disadvantage however, is not able to be overcome. It is a pretty simple spec that can shine well but overall has no real progression, no curve to it. For the average/casual player, that is fine and enjoyable because you can pick it up where you left off and feel exactly the same. But for the power player, Fury takes the cake hands down.

I think you simply dislike Fury and enjoy the simplicity of Arms vs the calculating style of Fury and that is fine for you, but don't mess with what is potentially the best spec in the game atm (minus Warlocks!).

[Taik]

I could not agree with Archimtiros more. Fury is better than it has ever been, and feels very engaging. There might be a few minor issues with fury, like the haste situation, but gameplay wise fury is solid throughout.

[Juni]

I'm quite interested in knowing what sort of gear OP has been "testing" fury with or what kind of experience he has with the spec. Because it's certainly not with 560+ as Fury feels absolutely AMAZING to play with that amount of gear (crit).

Yes, perfect play requires a lot from the player, but it absolutely does not require any type of overhaul at all. It simply needs a fix to make it not painful at low crit amounts.

I think you simply dislike Fury and enjoy the simplicity of Arms vs the calculating style of Fury and that is fine for you, but don't mess with what is potentially the best spec in the game atm (minus Warlocks!).

And this.. this sooo much.

[Tekkommo]

Fury is one of the best specs ever and always has been.

I think you don't know what clunky means, because Fury is certainly not clunky.

Arms is shit in PVE, don't you ever dare suggest Fury needs to be more like it.

[NuLogic]

I like fury how it is but I do wish the talents where more gameplay changing instead of just cd's.

[Teebu]

Fury is dated and clunky? It's one of few specs where you have to think when to do what. Pool your rage for CS. It might not be very much thinking, but it's definitely more than I can say about my Mage or my Hunter for example.
Because of that, Fury does in fact, differentiate the good from the not so good players.

Just because Enrage has been around since the start doesn't mean the spec has played around it since. I did not play my Warrior in WotLK but I will just go ahead and assume Enrage was "first" used for real in Cataclysm as the Mastery.

Your point about RNG is identical to Fire Mages points to it. The lower your gear, the shittier the spec is. This does suck for sure, but at least Arms also really like the crit rating unlike Arcane or Frost so at the worst, you can go Arms without losing much (if any) gold to reforging and gemming.

You seem like you liked the simplistic playstyle of the spec prior to Cata/MoP or whenever it became like this (note to self; must start gearing for funry). Fury does absolutely not need an overhaul of any kind. It is one of the more interactive DPS specs out there. With 6 healing specs, and 5 tanking specs, that leaves 22 or so DPS specs. For one of the best in terms of fun to be on your class while also being above average is pretty good.

[Kawaii]

Having stormbolt as a 20sec cooldown

Please Lords of WoW, have mercy on us, the poor fury warriors.

[Beasty]

I would rather change Arms to be honest, to be a slower spec and not be GCD locked, it does make them feel very similar. Just my opinion, some people hate not having something to press. Fury is ok, I dislike 'Wild Strike' it doesn't seem to fit for some reason. I preferred the fury spec more in WOTLK for the brief time I played.