Dungeon Deserter is awful.

[Siri]

Good luck with doing that in this large of a community where people pay for their own game.

Pulling anecdotal arguments on Non-specified communities shows nothing to realism or applicability.

It's Idealism at best, naive at worst.

I never said it would change back once it has gone bad, I said that's why they turn to shit in the first place. People ignore things until they grow too large to deal with, it's a terrible, TERRIBLE attitude to have.

[Extremity]

People still do that thoug, frequently.




I suppose that's true. Grit my teeth and bear with it until after the first boss.

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It was a mistake I've never done before. One simple mistake that I apologized for.
No, I'm not. You seem to be though. Judgemental, elitist, toxic, rude, arrogant.

It was a mistake.

You seem to throw the word "toxic" out a whole lot and are very defensive about the entire thing. Several people have pointed out a very clear fact about the situation; you expected the group (and expect us) to overlook a mistake. That's fine and completely understandable, yet you refused to look over the tank of the group doing the EXACT same thing, making a mistake, and then complain about getting debuffed when you abandoned a group.

Think about how this post would look if somebody else in the group made it - "Some priest joined our group as the healer in Shadow spec and just started DPSing the entire time and wiped us; then we wiped again because they couldn't get mana fast enough after changing their spec, and while they called us 'toxic' and 'elitist' for complaining about these things, they complained about the tank not waiting for them to respec (when they shouldn't have needed to in the first place) and abandoned our group before we even killed the first boss because of the tank's mistake, the whole time complaining that we should let them off the hook for theirs. The group then fell apart."

You're being nothing but a massive hypocrite. And I'm sure you'll come along and tell me I'm "toxic" or "rude" or "arrogant" because my opinion differs from yours, but the fact is that you apparently consider everybody who doesn't agree with you to be "toxic" and don't understand the actual nature of the word in its adjective form; the fact that you then decided to go further and make a top level post complaining about the outright ATROCITY of the situation makes it all the more apparent that regardless of the facts, you consider yourself to never make mistakes and thus should be immediately forgiven when you rarely, rarely make one... yet you refuse to give others the courtesy you expect to receive yourself. Congratulations, you are literally exactly what you're complaining about.

[Deleted]

I never said it would change back once it has gone bad, I said that's why they turn to shit in the first place. People ignore things until they grow too large to deal with, it's a terrible, TERRIBLE attitude to have.

Or it is realism and acceptance of your own helplessness towards facts.

Wasting your energy trying to preach idealism to millions of people - who by no account must share your opinion..

Also, pointing out something is "terrible" shows to nothing. Stick to arguments. Not make-shift blames.

[Seditian]

I never said it would change back once it has gone bad, I said that's why they turn to shit in the first place. People ignore things until they grow too large to deal with, it's a terrible, TERRIBLE attitude to have.

All good and well. But why are you giving people advice to "get themselves kicked"? By leaving you can make your point as well. Just take the 30 minute debuff hit (and hopefully in the future 1+ hours). Hell, I think it's stupid that you don't get deserter if you killed a boss. It's one of the reasons why so many people leave because that's the only boss you need. Just help others out with the rest of the run, it doesn't take much time nor effort.

[dusselldorf]

[Siri]

Or it is realism and acceptance of your own helplessness towards facts.

Wasting your energy trying to preach idealism to millions of people - who by no account must share your opinion..

Also, pointing out something is "terrible" shows to nothing. Stick to arguments. Not make-shift blames.

I can understand why you'd feel helpless if your opinion is that it doesn't matter what people let people get away with but that's not really how it works. There's nothing makeshift about it.

All good and well. But why are you giving people advice to "get themselves kicked"? By leaving you can make your point as well. Just take the 30 minute debuff hit (and hopefully in the future 1+ hours). Hell, I think it's stupid that you don't get deserter if you killed a boss. It's one of the reasons why so many people leave because that's the only boss you need. Just help others out with the rest of the run, it doesn't take much time nor effort.

Because that's the only way you can get out of the dungeon at that point without incurring the debuff, I actually did suggest to just not have instance chat enabled in a post on the first page of the thread. The kick thing is just if the whole group is that insufferable. I agree with the deserter thing in 5-mans, it wouldn't work well in LFR though.

[Deleted]

I can understand why you'd feel helpless if your opinion is that it doesn't matter what people let people get away with but that's not really how it works. There's nothing makeshift about it.

The way you interpet the point - makes it evident that you do not understand.

It's not my opinion wether it matters if people "get away" with things or not. I don't involve personal vengeance into the equation at all, nor do i get personally invested enough to want to consider it a important thing wether to punish a group or resentfully keep going on with them.

It's a game, where the main goal is to have fun. Not a political structure, where you by some means are a overarching monarch dealing with subjects. These are other people. They give 0 shits about you, lest they want to.

There of why it's makeshift to make arguments to blaming or "This is why X is shit". It's not relevant to the subject.

The only relevance to the subject - would arguably be how to most efficiently avoid arguments - Not how to incite them or how to effectively shun half the population.

[Seditian]

Because that's the only way you can get out of the dungeon at that point without incurring the debuff, I actually did suggest to just not have instance chat enabled in a post on the first page of the thread. The kick thing is just if the whole group is that insufferable. I agree with the deserter thing in 5-mans, it wouldn't work well in LFR though.

Sure, the group might be very annoying/offensive. I just tend to ignore the people and keep on healing/dpsing/tanking. Not responding to such people tends to dissolve the tension. I don't think leaving the instance channel is really an option, unless you do it purely for that run and enable it for the next instance.

I generally don't get a lot of offensive people, just do your role as good as you can. People really hate waiting (including me) and when I'm tanking, I just keep an eye on the healer's mana and keep on pulling as long as he can keep up with mana/movement.

I agree it doesn't work as well in LFR as in Dungeons. Because it's pretty much pointless to keep on going even if you cannot get loot from the boss. So yeah, you're right about that, the deserter debuff shouldn't be put on you when leaving after a single boss in LFR. In Dungeons however, it should.

[Siri]

It's a game, where the main goal is to have fun. Not a political structure, where you by some means are a overarching monarch dealing with subjects. These are other people. They give 0 shits about you, lest they want to.

And people behaving like idiots kind of cuts into the fun. It's a multiplayer game, the easier it is to have good interactions with other people the easier it is to have a good time playing. It is relevant, you just don't want it to be.

[StationaryHawk]

You're fortunate (or maybe unfortunate, in your case) that they didn't just vote-kick you in the first place. Just because it was a mistake doesn't mean that it didn't inconvenience other people, and given what game you're playing and where you are playing it people being upset over it shouldn't be a surprise. That's what the ignore feature is for.

But to remove the dungeon deserter debuff over one incident is kind of silly. It serves its purpose of deterring people from ditching dungeons lest they be faced with a 30min penalty. It doesn't stop everyone, but it stops enough. Just because it wasted 30mins of your life for what could be viewed as a justifiable reason doesn't mean it needs to be revamped.

[judgementofantonidas]

No, changing it so you can't see how many bosses are down was pretty much the best thing they could do. Before that change LFR had a much lower completion rate because people would just cancel and requeue if they got an in-progress run. If you want a full run you queue twice.

and how is that fair to force people to take twice the time to get a full run just in order to carry baddies that wipe repeatedly and lose people?

OR on the flip side of the coin how is that fair to people who just want to grab some quick valor? I used to love looking for and finding a run stuck on the last boss and getting my one boss valor kill in.

[Bremmon]

Just heal in shadow, that is what I do... once in a while I will have a group nerd rage and kick me for it, but most of the time it's not an issue.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry but if you can't be bothered to pay enough attention to know what role you are going into the dungeon as when the big fricken box comes up that shows your role and makes you click "accept" you deserve the debuff and worse. People like you are part of the reason lfd/lfr continue to get worse, because you are so self-absorbed that you think only you matter. You didn't even glance at the others in the group to see which one was the healer?? Knowing everyone's roles helps the group but that's too much work for you isn't it? You don't care about the group just yourself.

^^^ Well said

[judgementofantonidas]

Deserter is fine. The real issue is turds who are so awful that have 3 hour to 2+ days kick protection, because they are so awful they are kicked at any possible time.

two day kick protection is a myth. a few hours is not.

[Deleted]

And people behaving like idiots kind of cuts into the fun. It's a multiplayer game, the easier it is to have good interactions with other people the easier it is to have a good time playing. It is relevant, you just don't want it to be.

There's an easy solution to your issues - play with friends.

Like i said - if the baseline is to have fun, there are easy ways to deal with it. You don't seem to champion the cause of fun, more so then vengeance.

I personally don't put weight on it - As my solution is to fix issues, not focus on wether to be emotionally mad or w/e your emotional response is.

Also, projection of concieved ideas and forming arguments there of - instead of actually going on my ACTUAL arguments.. is make-belief, to put it gently.

[judgementofantonidas]

I don't see why you are qq the tank not holding agro. You could do those 5mans with 5 dps... In fact you could do every 5man in the game with 5 dps now days.

sure you can.

not.

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If the community as a whole shunned the people who behaved that way people wouldn't behave that way (or would go do it somewhere else). There are online communities that do that and it works perfectly. Just because it's a virtual environment it doesn't mean real life isn't applicable.

define the toxic behavior that you are specifically looking to alter because something toxic for you may be acceptable for another.

for instance the whole debate about under-performing. if that person is filling a needed roll and causing us to go more slowly than we would with a competent player then I would not hesitate to kick, which some would find toxic while others would find reasonable as they do not play the game to make up for the inadequacy of others.

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If the community as a whole shunned the people who behaved that way people wouldn't behave that way (or would go do it somewhere else). There are online communities that do that and it works perfectly. Just because it's a virtual environment it doesn't mean real life isn't applicable.

then the fix is obvious. GET RID OF THE QUE SYSTEM altogether. go back to forming your own group and manually going to an instance. then you have quality control and policing the ranks.

[Siri]

and how is that fair to force people to take twice the time to get a full run just in order to carry baddies that wipe repeatedly and lose people?

How would it take twice the time to get a full run?

OR on the flip side of the coin how is that fair to people who just want to grab some quick valor? I used to love looking for and finding a run stuck on the last boss and getting my one boss valor kill in.

Few changes are of the kind that favours everyone, before this change people would do exactly this. The result was that unless they got a run with the progress they wanted they wouldn't join at all, the group would take ages to get filled, if at all. While this was great for the people who actually could take advantage of it it is better for LFR/LFD in general to have a higher completion percentage

I personally don't put weight on it - As my solution is to fix issues, not focus on wether to be emotionally mad or w/e your emotional response is.

Ignoring is not fixing.

[judgementofantonidas]

Whilst leveling, people in Dungeons are plain dumb. I've been tanking on an Alt Druid less than a week ago and had the Monk Healer saying he had aggro and complaining constantly. In reality, the only thing that was getting aggro besides me was the Ret with RF on who refuses to turn it off. Anyways, all the DPS died on the Monk Boss in Scarlet Monastery and I decided to leave given the Healer seemed to be ready to rant again.

For the future, my attitude is going to be you pull it, you tank it. Also I think I may turn off instance chat whilst in leveling dungeons.

Anyways, I think Dungeon Deserter should be at least an Hour, same with BG Deserter. Also, what Tank? I had a friend who recently soloed most Dungeons as Prot Paladin from 72-80, and another two who went in as Ret Paladin and Disc Priest and did Gun'drak. Anyways for future reference pay more attention. Then they won't have reason to complain as much.

You tank it you pull it is the way to go. always.

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And people behaving like idiots kind of cuts into the fun. It's a multiplayer game, the easier it is to have good interactions with other people the easier it is to have a good time playing. It is relevant, you just don't want it to be.

again. you feel that someone not wanting to wait for you to do your job correctly is being an idiot, when on the flip side of the coin they think that you qued as a healer in dps spec is being an idiot.

if you want to run five mans in shadow spec give me a holler ill tank them for you.
there problem solved.

[Kazmodius]

Why don't reward what is good instead of punishing what is bad.

[judgementofantonidas]

How would it take twice the time to get a full run?

assuming you are a dps that is twice the que time JUST to get in, not counting whether you may leave because you got into a craptastic group.

Few changes are of the kind that favours everyone, before this change people would do exactly this. The result was that unless they got a run with the progress they wanted they wouldn't join at all, the group would take ages to get filled, if at all. While this was great for the people who actually could take advantage of it it is better for LFR/LFD in general to have a higher completion percentage

move to mother russia? I am not interested in what is good for EVERYONE. I am interested in quick clean completion of content that I am forced to run with sub-standard players so that I can move on to more, or content that I do not have to interact with such players.