Disrupting shout changes, once again PvP stuff gimps PvE

[Archimtiros]

Archimitros already did a good job of explaining why the change makes things more difficult but not impossible, especially relating to heroic Garrosh, so I won't go into repeating all that. But, yeah, it by no means makes it impossible to do heroic Garrosh or any other PVE encounter. It just seems unnecessary making things like that a little harder for the sake of nerfing PVP, and that's what the annoyance is caused by.

It doesn't destroy the class or make any fights impossible, it's just irritating that it's changed for no reason when there could be solutions that would only affect PVP.

Buuuut nobody reads more than the most recent page, yet feel compelled to join in the debate anyways and repeat the same question over and over again.
Of course, debate is a stretch by any means of the word, considering most people just want to come in and scream about how PvP is better than PvE or otherwise.

Really, before you post something silly like "amg blizzard sucks at their jobs" or "dragonslayers are dumb, pvp is a minigame hur hur"; please stop and think for a moment.

This game has been going pretty strong for almost a decade. You really think that the developers, most of whom have extensive experience on one if not both sides of the game are simply too inept or lazy to do something like design abilities differently for PvE and PvP?
Consider that, even if you do not understand or agree with the decision, they do it for a reason. I can't speak for them of course, but any one who stops and thinks about it for a second can realize it is a pretty conscious decision, given their design history.

If I had to take a guess; my assumption is that they simply don't want to differentiate the two aspects of the game. It's easy to say your going to make something work differently in PvP, then a year of tweaks later, decide to remove the PvE aspect for balancing reasons, or perhaps separate it into two abilities to make them easier to tune. Now you have an ability for PvE and PvP.
Now you have set a precedent. The next time a similar situation comes up, players expect and demand the same treatment; and so what happens? You end up with a spell book full of PvP and PvE only abilities.

So where does it end? Separate PvP and PvE specs? It's a slippery slope my friends, and while many of us, including myself actually, wouldn't hate the idea of (for example) Arms being specifically designed for PvP and Fury being PvE only, that is not the developers design or intent. Time and time again they have reminded us that players do not make decisions for them. They listen to feedback and occasionally tweak things based on the communities input but they generally stay true to their own decisions, especially the big ones.

I guess my TLDR for this is;
Don't lose your shit. Leave the petty superiority complexes at home. You could be the #1 PvX player in the world, but you come in with an attitude that "the other sucks because they're dumb" and nobody is going to respect anything you have to say.

Think about both sides of the discussion and post something constructive, or just read quietly. It's better for everyone.

[Leih]

Now you have set a precedent. The next time a similar situation comes up, players expect and demand the same treatment; and so what happens? You end up with a spell book full of PvP and PvE only abilities.

While you make a good post, the only real problem is they kind of already did set a precedent, which is the whole issue. There's a rogue change a couple of lines above the warrior change in this very patch that changes the ability for PVP only. Not to mention things already in Live, like our very own CS and Gag-Order.

Not really going anywhere with this post, this has kind of been discussed to death now, but just thought I'd point that out since you mention it.

[Archimtiros]

While you make a good post, the only real problem is they kind of already did set a precedent, which is the whole issue. There's a rogue change a couple of lines above the warrior change in this very patch that changes the ability for PVP only. Not to mention things already in Live, like our very own CS and Gag-Order.

Not really going anywhere with this post, this has kind of been discussed to death now, but just thought I'd point that out since you mention it.

I agree, and I know. Like I said, I can't speak for them, but its very easy to see that it isn't something they do often at all. As I said a few pages ago, its very easy to make a PvP only change to ability scaling on an something like CS or Kidney Shot, because it doesn't effect how you play one bit. You are still going to CS and it is still going to be a large dmg increase. Still going to Kidney Shot for reduced damage.

It's another thing entirely to make a change like "does this only in PvP and works completely different in PvE".

And honestly, they can do whatever the hell they want regardless of how we feel about it! As long as they can justify it. I really don't concern myself with (relatively) small changes such as this. These kinds of changes happen a half dozen times each expansion. I worry much more how this change effects the overall tier of talent choices. With three very situational talents (two of which overlap), you often end up with no choice rather than a best choice.

They think we have too much interrupting power. Ok, got it. Make the abilities lock each other out. Hell make speccing Disrupting Shout replace Pummel (without the extended CD I think) instead of merely conflicting with it. But don't simply take away utility without any kind of compensation, or giving us another good choice of talent to replace.

[Leih]

It's another thing entirely to make a change like "does this only in PvP and works completely different in PvE".

I guess. Though, again, Gag-Order works this way and was almost for entirely the same reason (reducing our interrupts) so just seems kind of strange they would make that change to the glyph but decide they don't care about the effects on PVE with the talent. Hmm.

They think we have too much interrupting power. Ok, got it. Make the abilities lock each other out. Hell make speccing Disrupting Shout replace Pummel (without the extended CD I think) instead of merely conflicting with it. But don't simply take away utility without any kind of compensation, or giving us another good choice of talent to replace.

Like I mentioned at some point earlier, would at least be nice if they feel they have to do this nerf -now- as a band-aid fix, without reworking the talent or the talent tier as a whole (which as you say, badly needs to be done, especially after this!) they could at least compensate for the lost utility by making Gag-order interrupt silence-immune mobs or something. The glyph already affects only NPCs, so why not. That'd keep things pretty much the same in PVE until WoD rolls around and they can properly rework this talent tier into something decent.

I have to assume they will rework it in WoD, because, yeah, it's a bit... "Ehhh, what?" right now. Even from a PVP perspective this talent tier is really lacklustre and uninteresting now... never mind PVE.

[Deleted]

No, no, no, the so called dragon slayers never had an issue with PvP, its the PvP heroes that always had problems with Dragonslayers owning them at their own game. PvE players never qqed how someone who does PvP beats them in PvP, its the PvP heroes tears that started all the changes in the past of wow that had to do with balancing PvE around PvP.

"Dragonslayers owing them at their own game"
Sorry but do you mean world PVP where PVE gear is superior because of things like 500k+ Chaos bolts, or back in Cata, when a full pve geared player with a legendary would do absurd damage to you? Like RBGs in s11, Spriest would wear pve gear and you'd have an arcane mage because RETARDED FUCKING DAMAGE.

[Sithalos]

PVP is a minigame.

Just because you're awful at it, doesn't mean you should dismiss it as a "minigame".

Pet battling is a "minigame". PvP is half of the core game.

[Deleted]

Ok I know logic is hard. So lets go back to the beginning for you and I'll talk you through it.

Current state of the game: 3 tank-viable classes have 2 interrupts.

Proposed nerf: Remove it from warriors. Why?

Proposed PVPer excuse: Because warriors shouldn't have two interrupts. No one else does!

My counter: Warriors are not the only class with two interrupts.

PVPer counter to that: But they are the only one who has two interrupts in DPS spec too!

My counter: No. Monks and DKs do as well.

Your counter to that: But rets and druids don't!

My counter: That doesn't matter, because in the CURRENT STATE of the game, warriors do. So why remove it?

Well firstly, RoP is not a 3 sec blanket, which you can easily avoid most of them time. And a lot of players also use Leg sweep.
Secondly, once in a blue moon do you see strang these days. Everyone runs Asphyxiate (which honestly is more annoyong). To be fair, DKs do have too many ways to make your life hell as a caster, double grip, pet interrupt, mind freeze, strange/stun. However, you can shake a dk off of you from time to time.
That because a little bit more difficult with the up time overlord Warrior.

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To be fair, Disrupting shout should replace pummel when talented.
Just like Fist of Justice, or Asphyxiate.
So then you'd have a lovely AoE kick on a 15 sec CD.

Quote fix'd. (Senen)

[Mormolyce]

Are you sure about that? This so-called "minigame" just caused Blizzard to make actual changes to class mechanics, a few of many more to come apparently from the looks of it, to accommodate it.

As mechanic changes go they don't get much more trivial than this.

PVP suffers 100 changes due to PVE for every one change PVE suffers due to PVP.

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Just because you're awful at it, doesn't mean you should dismiss it as a "minigame".

Pet battling is a "minigame". PvP is half of the core game.

Kind of ironic given that according to recent stats there are more pet battles per day than PVE and PVP instances combined. And then doubled.

I don't think anyone doubts PVP is the poor cousin to PVE.

"Shut up PVP guy".

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Ideally a perfect-world solution would make this change only apply inside Instanced PvP such as Arena, Wargames, Battlegrounsd and Wintegrasp etc places.

However if that happened then it would leave a huge question of "why the fuck wasn't this done 5 years ago?"

Because Disrupting Shout didn't exist 5 years ago?

Why complicate the game rules by making this PVP only when it makes FUCK. ALL. DIFFERENCE. in PVE?

[Sickjen]

Warrior Nerfs-> Sky is falling.

Amen to that

[TeeZed]

Makes it SUPER situational in PvP, and also in PvE. Can use it while bladestorming, only reason for PvP realisticly, In PvE, might be more than 1 mob to interrupt at the same time, but that's it.

This Really doesn't help the PvP scene at all, warriors still have a stupidly large amount of disruption against casters, it may be why so many people have moved over to hunter in PvP now, you have better tools to kite and even if you don't everything you do is either instant or can't be pummeled anyway.

[Archimtiros]

Warrior Nerfs-> Sky is falling.

Amen to that

You know the funny thing is, there really hasn't been much of any "freaking out" over this. 90% of the thread is rediculous arguing over PvE vs PvP, as if it really makes a difference.

I will say this is a very odd and ill timed change. Bad idea to change utility, especially utility that is being actively used and that is where the majority of the hate comes from on the PvE side. I realize they want a change prior to the new PvP season coming up, but its still not a great idea.

Come down to it, this isn't a change that makes or breaks anybody, in PvE or PvP, but it is a nerf and no matter how slight a nerf will ALWAYS draw hate from some part of the community.

Also, the majority of the people posting on here aren't even active Warriors on this forum; which to me is the funniest part of those two quotes above.

[Vurdah]

Good thing the change we talk about was made because PvE players complained, yes, idd i see your point...




Ah, so thats the reason why tryhard "hardcore raiders" qq how they get annihilated in WPvP by PvP heroes. Or wait, is it the other way around, hmm?

You win ONLY because you have 100k more hp and about 2x the damage/healing as someone in pvp gear in world pvp. Oh and btw I rape dragon slayers in any 1v1 fight because most of you are just bad at an encounter that you cant watch a strat vid for on you tube or use dbm to tell you that a warrior is about to wreak on your face.

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Well the game is built around PvE since the start, I've never even looked at PvP as I play other games that do it better.

Please tell me what other hot key based mmorpg is better at pvp than wow and don't say dota or LoL because they are moba's.

[Thychiz]

Yeah sure it's a pain in the ass, I quite enjoyed having double interrupts on Garrosh. But it isn't the end of the world.....

[Deleted]

I don't see any problems with this, from PvE perspective. It's not like we need 2 interrupts in 15 second margin at any PvE encounter currently unless players are sleeping.

But from PvP perspective, its justified change because we can lockdown certain classes so much that they cannot play the game. People are saying that other classes have two interrupts, yeah they do. BUT they are on GCD when our interrupts AND charge are not on GCD which allow us to lockdown those certain specs so good that they cannot play. We also have one AoE stun (Shockwave) and ranged stun (Stormbolt) which is problem on its own.

And people saying they need the double interrupt for CM's, you also have other players and thier CC/interrupts to help you with CM's.

[Senen]

Please tell me what other hot key based mmorpg is better at pvp than wow and don't say dota or LoL because they are moba's.

WoW was, at first, pve-oriented. There are pvp-oriented mmorpg (Guild Wars, for one) but that doesn't always mean that their pvp aspect is better than their pve aspect.

Anyway, let's calm down about the whole "I'm better cause I pvx" discussion. The thread is not about that and it isn't going anywhere interesting.
Plus, I'm tired of having my mailbox go crazy because of so many reported posts.

On topic, as I already explained, I fully agree with Archimtiros on the fact that it's stupid to destroy our tier45 talent which was already pretty lame.
The other fact that bother me is how they make these changes in a "learn a new clunky gameplay" style. It has already been the case with Thunderclap, when suddenly pve warriors (tanks, mainly) have to wonder before any Shockwave if they do have 3 targets in range or if it will mess up with a further utilisation of TC.
Now I'm considering the idea of unbinding Plummel in CMs since aoe-kick is golden there and I don't want to be unable to use it because I interrupted something else by reflex.
These changes are bad not only because they are pvp changes that affect pve or because the whole lvl45 tier talent makes no sense in pve anymore but also because they bring a clunky and badly designed gameplay to pve players.

[Tucci]

PVP is a minigame.

lol? No. Recent statistics even prove that. But you already know that.

And PvP'ers would also like to see separate changes. They already did it for Colossus Smash. I think they don't want to complicate things for newer players. If they have to figure out what an ability does for both PvP and PvE it might be overwhelming for them. But in the long run I think it would make things a lot easier to balance. As long as they don't completely change an ability's effect to the point of the original ability being unrecognizable, I don't think it would be a problem for anyone.

If they're willing to put 90's in the store, they can take a leap of faith with some other things too.

[Deleted]

It bugs me people are making this into a huge issue. If it gimps PvE as much as you say it does, instead of crying about it ...Maybe you should be asking your raid leader (or yourself in the other case) why you're assigned to TWO interrupts when near enough every class in the game - implying 9 or 24 other players - have an interrupt and a good portion of those have a lockout attached to it.
I can understand the whole "but now I can't save the raid!" thing, but in reality you shouldn't have to save someone elses ass because they failed. It's nice and all but if were as good as they think they are, they wouldn't *need* Disrupting Shout to be used within 15 seconds.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but coming from a 2k~ Arena background and a guild progressing on Garrosh HC at this moment in time, it's really *not* that big of a deal and from a PvP point of view anyone who thinks Warriors DIDN'T need changing clearly shouldn't be commenting on Balance (Yes Arms is my main for PvP).

[Leih]

On topic, as I already explained, I fully agree with Archimtiros on the fact that it's stupid to destroy our tier45 talent which was already pretty lame.
The other fact that bother me is how they make these changes in a "learn a new clunky gameplay" style. It has already been the case with Thunderclap, when suddenly pve warriors (tanks, mainly) have to wonder before any Thunderclap if they do have 3 targets in range or if it will mess up with a further utilisation of TC.
Now I'm considering the idea of unbinding Plummel in CMs since aoe-kick is golden there and I don't want to be unable to use it because I interrupted something else by reflex.
These changes are bad not only because they are pvp changes that affect pve or because the whole lvl45 tier talent makes no sense in pve anymore but also because they bring a clunky and badly designed gameplay to pve players.

You meant shockwave, right?

If so, yeah. I absolutely agree. That was pretty much on the same level as this change. I think it slipped under the radar a bit more because a lot of PVE tanks just go for Dragon Roar anyway for the DPS boost but any time you want to use shockwave it's just more of a clunky pain in the arse than it needs to be. Just like the disrupting shout change, not usually game-breaking or raid-wiping but a really annoying extra thing you have to keep track of purely because it was too powerful in PVP.

Accidentally only hit 2 targets with Shockwave because one mob ran a little too far out? Oops, double cooldown time!
Use pummel on a single mob casting only for the other two in the group to start a cast immediately after? Too bad!

Decision like "should I risk trying to shockwave now or wait until there's 3 mobs cause I might need it in 25 seconds time...." just makes the class feel a bit clunky. Either make the CD 40 seconds or make it 20 seconds but the whole variable thing is a pain. And yep, same goes for the change as well.

I would prefer even if, as people suggested, they would just make disrupting shout replace pummel because at least then you'd know you only have one interrupt, and it would feel like less icky gameplay!

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Well firstly, RoP is not a 3 sec blanket, which you can easily avoid most of them time. And a lot of players also use Leg sweep.
Secondly, once in a blue moon do you see strang these days. Everyone runs Asphyxiate (which honestly is more annoyong). To be fair, DKs do have too many ways to make your life hell as a caster, double grip, pet interrupt, mind freeze, strange/stun. However, you can shake a dk off of you from time to time.
That because a little bit more difficult with the up time overlord Warrior.

You quoted me on a very specific discussion about PVE with a response about why warriors are OP in PVP, a fact which I already agreed with. Removing double interrupt in PVP setting is fine! The post you quoted related to asking why it should be removed in PVE as well.

[Beefkow]

This change is very necessary in ALL prospectives, in pvp i am glad as a warrior that this is getting nerfed for the reason that i can bladestorm and interrupt some1 or just double interrupting is just too op.

Might be too much of a nerf in pve, but its tolerable.

[Keile]

I think people forget that in a raid environment a single warrior is not the only one interrupting. This is why we have at least another 9 other people in the raid with us...to help deal with things like this. Not only that but, for the most part, interruptable abilities on an a very easily predicted timer. The majority of these abilities (are there exceptions? Yes, but exceptions do not make the rule) are cast every X seconds, usually lining up with interrupt CD's.

Basically....teach other DPS that they can also interrupt.