Why hasn't Siege been nerfed like DS and ICC?

[Taik]

I am currently sitting at 11/14hc with my guild, and although I don't expect these DS/ICC nerfs, I still fear they will be implemented. I'd hate to have killed Garrosh hc with a 10% nerf on it (the first time that is).

[Santoryu]

Does Blizz really expect people to keep running it for months and months without being able to pug it easily?
When they nerfed previous raids it worked out really well for the community. There was still heroic for the hardcore raiders to fall back on and casual players had the opportunity to pug normal.

Siege has been out for a few months now. It's not like gear or time is the reason people aren't able to progress. A nerf will help guilds that are stuck as well.

There are 4 difficulty modes now, there is no need to nerf the highest one. You can't have everything, deal with it.

[xytech]

Compared to DS and ICC, SoO is getting nerfed every week, it's called valor upgrade.

Far as most people are concerned normal items are 561 (567) ilvl and heroic items are 574 (580) ilvl. Chances are you won't get more than 2 new upgrades every week unless it's a brand new alt, so you won't have to wait a week to upgrade the gear. Unupgraded gear is simply unoptimized, as if it was missing reforge, gems and enchants.

[Deleted]

Garrosh hm 10 is seriously overtuned, 5 months already and barely 45 10man guilds in america has killed him, this is almost as bad as ICC with that insane wall at the very end.



H garrosh is balanced around at least 571+ gear and full legendaries, unless you think 700 paragon wipes 1 healing at 567 is the proper tuning.

It's not overtuned imo. The issue with Heroic Garrosh on 10 man is the strict requirements to the setup. You mention Paragon who's been the best guild in the world for years and reach Heroic Garrosh way sooner than anyone else. The only reason they had to solo heal, was cause their ilvl was not intended for Heroic Garrosh. That's cutting edge progression right there, doesn't mean it's overtuned.

I think my own guild's average ilvl was 574 on our first kill back in December but most guilds reaching Garrosh back then would be around that ilvl. People reaching Heroic Garrosh now, will most likely have an average of 576-577. So don't compare a world first 10 man kill to the rest of us mortal players. If you can't kill Heroic Garrosh with 575ish ilvl, it's not because the boss is overtuned, it's because you don't have the required setup (Partly Blizz's fault) or it's cause you fail at the mechanics.

Generally I don't see the need for nerfs, when we we have Flex. If you want to pug Normal SoO and can't, you're most likely joining the wrong groups or you're on a low pop/crap server.

[Sinndra]

I'm expecting the rolling nerfs to come once 5.4.7 hits, or perhaps the week after.

sorry, but Ahead of the Curve and The Cutting Edge mean that wont happen. 5.4.7 is not a proper raid tier. it is just minor changes and bug fixes. the deal with these achieves is that you have the full duration from one tier to the next (or in this case start of a new expansion) to earn them without blanket nerfs.

[Deleted]

Garrosh hm 10 is seriously overtuned, 5 months already and barely 45 10man guilds in america has killed him, this is almost as bad as ICC with that insane wall at the very end.



H garrosh is balanced around at least 571+ gear and full legendaries, unless you think 700 paragon wipes 1 healing at 567 is the proper tuning.

Paragon had 565, huge difference. I would say Garrosh is tuned around 566-567~ in 10 man with legendaries. We were several guilds that killed it in the 568-569 area without wiping 700 times and it was for sure doable with much less gear than that.

Granted, the fight is fairly setup dependant, if you have a shitty setup, you should probably have 572ish, but I do not think that raids are tuned around shitty setups. Imo your start overgearing the encounter with a proper setup at 571-572ish.

[Deleted]

Far as most people are concerned normal items are 561 (567) ilvl and heroic items are 574 (580) ilvl. Chances are you won't get more than 2 new upgrades every week unless it's a brand new alt, so you won't have to wait a week to upgrade the gear. Unupgraded gear is simply unoptimized, as if it was missing reforge, gems and enchants.

SoO is tuned with unupgraded gear in mind, the developers have even stated that the valor upgrade system is a tool to gradually nerf the raid content and to make sure the raid is always a little bit stronger than the previous week.

[Zantos]

I can't agree with anyone saying they have flex. The simple point is people will not want to continue to only be able to raid flex. Worse yet are the leaders of those groups. You don't already have 540+ ilevel gl getting into flex 3, or even flex 4. Hell, it's not uncommon for me to see people requiring 550+ for flex 4. So unless you get into normal raiding, you'll have to have full flex gear to get into flex raiding for the most part. At least the second half. My guild recently downed garrosh normal and it was annoying. Some of the targeted nerfs made bosses we had already killed feel so easy. I think the nerfs are inc. People might say "but the ahead of the curve achievement!". To that, I have one thing to point out to you. ICC nerfed. Heroic droped invincible 100% of the time on heroic. Did that matter to keep ICC hard for the entire expansion? No. Did the DS mount matter? No. The achievement will play no factor as to if the nerf is put into place or not.

Im not sure when the nerfs will be put in, but they will be. They nerfed every other raid thus far, SoO will be the same.

[xytech]

SoO is tuned with unupgraded gear in mind, the developers have even stated that the valor upgrade system is a tool to gradually nerf the raid content and to make sure the raid is always a little bit stronger than the previous week.

The raid will be stronger than the previous weeks because of the items they gained that week, not because they had 8 unupgraded items on them and now got to upgrade 2 of those. I got 3 characters I've been raiding with, and all of them are constantly sitting at 2-3k valor so it's not like I can't upgrade every new item I get when I get it.

[Zantos]

SoO is tuned with unupgraded gear in mind, the developers have even stated that the valor upgrade system is a tool to gradually nerf the raid content and to make sure the raid is always a little bit stronger than the previous week.

Didn't stop them from nerfing any of the previous tiers when a new tier was put out so far this expansion.

[Deleted]

Paragon had 565, huge difference. I would say Garrosh is tuned around 566-567~ in 10 man with legendaries. We were several guilds that killed it in the 568-569 area without wiping 700 times and it was for sure doable with much less gear than that.

Granted, the fight is fairly setup dependant, if you have a shitty setup, you should probably have 572ish, but I do not think that raids are tuned around shitty setups. Imo your start overgearing the encounter with a proper setup at 571-572ish.

Not sure I agree with this. There's a big difference between someone like yourself who's among the top 1% being able to kill H Garrosh with 568-569 ilvl and then the better half of the Heroic raiders in general, who I think majority would struggle with that ilvl tbh. Again, it depends on your setup and if you have a Heroic trinkets or not. I mean, I know annoying the Engineer was for our Lock, when he had a Flex trinket (Bindings I think it was). Cause it was up to RNG whether the Engineer would die in time or not. Had it not been for myself as Bear tank doing insane damage (vengeance whoring ofc), it was really close when it came to pushing the boss into the last phase. Having to take upwards 15 stacks with no tanking cloak, just to make sure, we could push it.

I still think, it's more fair to say, that for the better half of the Heroic raiders, 574-575 ish is more realistic. If you don't have a setup that allows you to split into 5 groups during the first intermission, you'll need some heavy burst to make it before he reach 25 energy. Then again, I don't think the ilvl itself is the most important factor, I think it's whether you got Heroic trinkets/weapon or not.

[Chrysia]

Didn't stop them from nerfing any of the previous tiers when a new tier was put out so far this expansion.

Key distinction here. They were nerfed when we got a new tier. So if there are nerfs, they'll hit with 6.0.

[Choptimus]

Garrosh hm 10 is seriously overtuned, 5 months already and barely 45 10man guilds in america has killed him

175 in EU that have killed him.

This is a problem with US guilds not being as good as the EU guilds, not the content. Sorry.

[nekobaka]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt normal currently still not cross realm. Easily PuGable is a vague term. Even with the nerfs to ICC only a fraction of those who raided cleared the place including in 10 man which Flex difficulty is targeted towards although I cant say if it was pre or post 30% buff. The DS nerf ended up being an over nerf despite the developers earlier claims of trying to prevent that. As others have said the gear upgrade system is the developers intended gradual content nerf system.

The nerfs particularly for DS was an attempt to get players to jump up in higher difficulties and continue the grind while the ICC buff was to get players further into the raid in the first place. If Blizzard isnt doing it again then it might mean it didnt work as intended and not a significant amount of players bothered to jump up in difficulty after clearing their intended difficulty.

Didn't stop them from nerfing any of the previous tiers when a new tier was put out so far this expansion.

With drop rates increased as a subtle attempt to get players who still needed gear from those raids to run them especially without having to wait and rely on LFR. For the first two tiers primarily the developers tried to keep some sense of tier progression and wanted players to run the old raids in order to gear up and transition into the next raid instead of gear catch ups. Both in ToT and SoO there was issues where guilds jumped the gun right into the new tier without being ready for it gear wise. The nerf was still fairly small however to where if a group couldnt PuG it without the nerf then they would still have issues.

There is no new tier however which would leave the next expansion patch and the safety nerfs that are done.

[Choptimus]

I can't agree with anyone saying they have flex. The simple point is people will not want to continue to only be able to raid flex.

So get better at the game?

[Thelxi]

Content nerfs itself these days with warforged gear and valor upgrades. If you are stuck on a boss with fully upgraded gear and plenty of warforged pieces on most of your raiders, you probably have hit your team's skillcap.

[Deleted]

Not sure I agree with this. There's a big difference between someone like yourself who's among the top 1% being able to kill H Garrosh with 568-569 ilvl and then the better half of the Heroic raiders in general, who I think majority would struggle with that ilvl tbh. Again, it depends on your setup and if you have a Heroic trinkets or not. I mean, I know annoying the Engineer was for our Lock, when he had a Flex trinket (Bindings I think it was). Cause it was up to RNG whether the Engineer would die in time or not. Had it not been for myself as Bear tank doing insane damage (vengeance whoring ofc), it was really close when it came to pushing the boss into the last phase. Having to take upwards 15 stacks with no tanking cloak, just to make sure, we could push it.

I still think, it's more fair to say, that for the better half of the Heroic raiders, 574-575 ish is more realistic. If you don't have a setup that allows you to split into 5 groups during the first intermission, you'll need some heavy burst to make it before he reach 25 energy. Then again, I don't think the ilvl itself is the most important factor, I think it's whether you got Heroic trinkets/weapon or not.

Well, I get where you are coming from.
In my opinion, content is tuned for the item level where it is doable, not where the most people complete it. I would not say that limit is paragon level, since they used one healer, but they could have done it with two though. Paragon used 700 wipes, so that does not seem a good basis, but people at 567+ start having 200-250 wipes, which is not that insane, so I would say that is what the boss is tuned around roughly.

Then if a majority of players kill the boss in higher item level simply because they did not put the hours in or had the skill to do so, I do not think that should affect the "tuned" item level for a boss. If 10 guilds kill a boss at 570 and 100 at 575, I would still say it is tuned for 570, even though those 100 guilds killed it at 575.
Also what needs to be remembered, a lot of the guilds that kill a boss could have killed it in far less, it is simply a matter of them having the gear they have. People that reach garrosh with 575 now could probably have killed it in 570, just that they did not put the hours into progressing to bring them to garrosh soon enough. I know we could have done it in 1-2 less item level.
This is super clear in 25 man, I dont think any single guild have killed Garrosh 25 man in the item level it was "tuned" for, since every guild that reaches it have higher item level than that.

But yeah, I guess it is a definition of what the item level a boss is tuned for should be, is it where the boss is doable, or where most people kills it? I would say the earlier. To me it does not make sense when people say stuff like "Garrosh is tuned for 575 ilvl!" when so many people did it in 7 less item level than that.

[MoanaLisa]

Flex is the nerf. Alternately Raid Finder's existence makes it unnecessary. Nonetheless they may nerf it anyway after a while longer since there won't be any more tiers this expansion. Or perhaps they'll make some adjustments when 6.0 arrives.

[kamuimac]

So get better at the game?

people get better only to certain point - after that point they cba and quit game.

when blizzard sees q1 sub losses they will preset much more targeted/blanket nerfs in q2 -_-

[Adoxe]

Too early. I'm hoping they don't, LFR and Flex exist for a reason.