Has relative power between Fully Geared vs Ungeared been higher than this before?

[threads]

That's the problem with double upgrades + warforged, ilvl went out of control during ToT. Wish they'd just kill that combo altogether cause it's mostly just been an annoyance. Have to farm same offset pieces twice and upgrade them twice is just dumb design.

[Fahrenheit]

Probably not. That being said, in late Classic WoW, when I was in a mix of Naxx and AQ40 gear and your average player was in D1 blues and maybe a mix of MC epic (maybe) I was nigh unkillable by 3 or even 4 DPS as a Resto/Feral Druid.

[Solial]

I remember doing up to 6k dps on patchwerk on my frostfire mage. I remember doing about 10k in full ICC 25H gear. Granted Frostfire was incredibly OP until it was nerfed. (This is single target). I remember seeing numbers over 100k during that whelp pack before Sindragosa.

I think I was bursting about 40k during heroic rag progression as an arcane mage. I remember doing over 50k on H Ultraxion when I was near BiS.

I remember our mage doing something like 90k on Heroic Gara'jal. This was around a 480 ilvl maybe. I remember our mage bursting for over 300k on sha of fear heroic around a 510 ilvl (Take note this is with tier bonuses and gems and enchants). Looking at World of logs for ra-den and going back to around August a mage was doing 300k in a top parse for that time over a 5 minute fight. The current top parse for an arcane mage in non-asia is 459k on Iron Juggernut Heroic (All of this on 10 man).
A would guess the mage for ra-den had roughly a ~545 ilvl. The mage for Ra-den would likely have around 575-580. 30 ilvl increase was roughly a 50% dps increase including the cloak procs.

[Maelstrom51]

A 1 ilvl increase has approximately .94% more stats than the previous ilvl. There is a spread of 117 ilvls between heroic dungeon blues and 2/2 upgraded heroic warforged gear. This is approximately 3 times the total stats, which is much higher than any previous expansion. This explains why the gap between geared and not is so great this expansion.

[Deja Thoris]

That's the problem with double upgrades + warforged, ilvl went out of control during ToT. Wish they'd just kill that combo altogether cause it's mostly just been an annoyance. Have to farm same offset pieces twice and upgrade them twice is just dumb design.

Thinking you have to farm for pieces twice is dumb (and ironic since you feel you have to do it and bemoan the higher ilevels in the same breath).

Thinking upgrades matter in this context is dumb. Even without item upgrades the power difference between a fresh 90 and a fully geared person would be the largest its ever been.

[Deleted]

craziest ive seen so far

from ~540 to ~560 I gained 100k DPS (~230 to ~340 / Burst ~500k to ~1m, playing Hunter)

looking back at 463 to now... its just all INSANE and way too depressing when you twink or start new, you feel like you do nothing and when I twink people often say "OMG that dude only does 80k DPS! Kick him!" when I'm at ~480 Itemlevel so yeah... depressing

Really hope the Squish will make this a smoother transition

[gibbie99]

No, never. The gap in MoP is much larger than ever before. Even in Cataclysm, new 85s didn't deal 1/5th the DPS of fully T13-equipped characters. A new 90 might deal 80k at best, while T16H-equipped players can top 450k.

The problem is they need to differentiate rewards within tiers, and they feel the need to separate them by at least 13 itemlvls, and 13 itemlvls is a whopping 10% stat inflation, and in MoP each raid tier has either three or four different reward tiers, plus thunderforged for another 7 itemlvl inflation for the last two tiers, plus valor upgrades across the board for another 8. That's why the gap is so huge now.

This is true, however in the last 3 expansions the difference in power between freshly dinged max and end of expansion fully geared was also about 5 fold. So yeah this is a bit higher but we've had similiar issues for the last 3 expansions. People just don't remember. For example, in BC I remember doing 200 dps (lol right?) at 70, and I remember doing about 1000 dps at the end of BT. Similiar for the other two expacs.

[Maelstrom51]

I actually like warforged, despite contributing to the ilvl bloat. I have almost all the heroic gear I need, but I still don't mind doing farm bosses since I have a decent chance of getting a warforged upgrade. Just last week I got my first heroic warforged weapon. I was pretty stoked.

[Deleted]

It won't happen again. Mostly because LFR gear won't be as powerful as it has been. LFR gear will probably be slightly worse than the previous normal tier. Just speculations, but Blizzard said that they don't want LFR to be something you do to gear your characters.

- - - Updated - - -

I actually like warforged, despite contributing to the ilvl bloat. I have almost all the heroic gear I need, but I still don't mind doing farm bosses since I have a decent chance of getting a warforged upgrade. Just last week I got my first heroic warforged weapon. I was pretty stoked.

Not a single WF heroic caster weapon for us so far and we're on like week 15 of Sha of Pride now.

[Musta Kyy]

I did close to 100k in full timeless on my shadow priest - not that hard to accomplish with any spec/class.

A priest in 496 gear (enchanted, gemmed, reforged right) sims at about 80-85k dps, this was including 502 weapon and you have to remember with simcraft there is also all raid buffs present, flask, food and potions.
So in realistic situation, doing even 75k in timeless gear is pretty good as shadow priest at least. With 463 weapon Id be surprised if you can pull over 60k.

You can even check simcraft for T14N bis, thats with set bonuses and items with nice amount of gem sockets, its at about 90k for shadow priests.

So any claims about 100k dps easily with shadow priest in 496 gear are bullshit.

So basically you either, A. have a lot higher gear than full 496, B. did this in an environment with damage buff (5man hc, lfr with determination) or C. bursted 100k in a short fight.

[Gaman]

I actually like warforged, despite contributing to the ilvl bloat. I have almost all the heroic gear I need, but I still don't mind doing farm bosses since I have a decent chance of getting a warforged upgrade. Just last week I got my first heroic warforged weapon. I was pretty stoked.

I like it for that reason aswell. And want it to stay for that reason after the item squish aswell.

OT: Yeah, ivl between first tier to last tier is 476 (MSV Raidfinder) 580 (SoO 2x upgraded HC WF). Playing a newly dinged 90 after playing a 572ilvl 90 makes it kinda tedious. Items squish will hopefully fix this.

[Normie]

90k is reasonable if they enchant, reforge, and find a weapon.

50k is what 463 gear gets you. 50k in Timeless is simply being bad.

I disagree. With both statements.

- - - Updated - - -

So any claims about 100k dps easily with shadow priest in 496 gear are bullshit.

So basically you either, A. have a lot higher gear than full 496, B. did this in an environment with damage buff (5man hc, lfr with determination) or C. bursted 100k in a short fight.

Or were fighting 3 or 5 or 10 targets. But yeah. Spriest + 496 != 100k single target dps.

- - - Updated - - -

You could already solo 5 man heroics in tier 14 LFR gear. Most good guilds don't recruit based off ilvl alone, and the cloak takes only 2-3 months at most these days. What exactly is your point?

The cloak does not ever take 2 months. If you are very lucky with your runestones it takes 3 months.

- - - Updated - - -

It won't happen again. Mostly because LFR gear won't be as powerful as it has been. LFR gear will probably be slightly worse than the previous normal tier. Just speculations, but Blizzard said that they don't want LFR to be something you do to gear your characters.

That's an interesting sentiment but I'm sure Blizzard is aware that LFR is almost the only thing most players do to gear their characters.

[KaPe]

So basically you either, A. have a lot higher gear than full 496, B. did this in an environment with damage buff (5man hc, lfr with determination) or C. bursted 100k in a short fight.

You forgot D - he did it on Timeless Isle, using all those crazy buffs. I imagine 25% more haste/crit/mastery, on damage proc, 5% more stats and +8000 int proc free trinket would inflate those numbers "a bit".

[hablix]

The delta between Timeless and Heroic gear alone is probably greater than most expansions, let alone fresh 90/MSV gear to SoO. The problem is the intra-tier delta, where the difference between LFR and Heroic Warforged SoO gear is the difference between Karazhan gear and Sunwell gear. From my experience a person in Heroic gear can do about double the DPS of a player in just about the exact same gear but LFR ilvls.

[Teence]

Funny, I was just thinking this to myself while doing ToT LFR on my alt. Yes, the gap is the largest its ever been compared to any previous expansion.

In BC, the typical Karazhan-geared player could pull about ~700-900 DPS. The typical late Sunwell character (i.e. no Warglaives or Thoridal) hovered around ~2100-2300 DPS including Drums and Bloodlust stacking. Warglaives or Thoridal meant Rogues and Hunters could reach close to 3000 DPS, with one Hunter from SK Gaming reaching 3200 at one point, but that is not the typical player. From start to finish, DPS increased by 2-3 times over the course of TBC.

In Wrath, output went from about 2000-2500 DPS in Heroic blues to about 3500-4500 in full Naxx 25 gear. Without the ICC buff, output in T10 capped at around 9000-15000. This is due in part to the absolutely insane trinkets that were available in Heroic ICC (Deathbringer's Will, DFO). About a 4-fold DPS increase from start to finish in WotLK, but mainly due to ridiculously powerful trinkets.

In Cata, DPS went from about 10-13k in Heroic blues to about 45k on Heroic Ultraxion. DPS roughly quadrupled over the course of Cataclysm.

There is absolutely no comparison with any previous expansion as the DPS disparity currently stands in Mists of Pandaria. As others have mentioned, most classes with a 570+ iLvl are capable of putting out just shy of 10 times as much DPS as someone in 463 gear. 40-50k as a fresh 90 in 463 gear (I'm not counting TI gear) to upwards of 350k with a Heroic Warforged SoO weapon. Of course, the ilvl spectrum over the course of the expansion is also the highest its ever been (115-164 in TBC vs. 463-580). As a fresh 90, it truly is abysmal until you're mostly geared from SoO LFR.

[Mormolyce]

No, never. The gap in MoP is much larger than ever before. Even in Cataclysm, new 85s didn't deal 1/5th the DPS of fully T13-equipped characters. A new 90 might deal 80k at best, while T16H-equipped players can top 450k.

The problem is they need to differentiate rewards within tiers, and they feel the need to separate them by at least 13 itemlvls, and 13 itemlvls is a whopping 10% stat inflation, and in MoP each raid tier has either three or four different reward tiers, plus thunderforged for another 7 itemlvl inflation for the last two tiers, plus valor upgrades across the board for another 8. That's why the gap is so huge now.

Cata had only 3 tiers and removed the 10/25 split so had much fewer actual steps up in gear between fresh toon and fully geared than other expansions. Better example would be Wrath. Where IIRC damage gap was huge as well.

At least we have base resil and no more massive difference between PVE and PVP gear so you don't get 1shot in BGs in starter gear anymore.

[Feali]

One of the many reasons why we NEED the item squish.

[Mormolyce]

To be fair, there was also a 30% damage buff for the bulk of ICC that heavily inflated the numbers there. 16k wasn't a regular sight except on gimmick encounters like Blood Queen or until the 4.0 patch where some specs like Arcane were just ridiculous.

IIRC 10k was about right for top end gear without the ICC buff. I used to hit around 9-10k in NM gear at 20% ish IIRC. HM would've been a lot more.

[threads]

Thinking you have to farm for pieces twice is dumb (and ironic since you feel you have to do it and bemoan the higher ilevels in the same breath).

Thinking upgrades matter in this context is dumb. Even without item upgrades the power difference between a fresh 90 and a fully geared person would be the largest its ever been.

No it wouldn't. The double upgrades meant they had to make ToT reg gear higher than 2/2 gear in t14. ToT ilvl would've been 8 ilvls lower than it is. Then they added thunderforged which added another 6 ilvls on top of that. Then SoO came along and they had to make the gear higher than upgrade thunderforged heroic.

gg ilvl inflation

[Mikael123]

In Classic wow I got 1 shot by a hunter with an aimed shot. My druid had several epics. So yes relative power has been higher.