Has relative power between Fully Geared vs Ungeared been higher than this before?

[Airwaves]

That would be a terrible idea. Not everyone cares about transmog.

They you should be fine with just the challenge not the extra gear.

[Thyranne]

Why is it better to add a letter telling you that the number is actually huge rather than having a similar small number without the trailing letter?
Lets say the change happend right now and you hit for 300'000 damage. Why would it feel better to hit for "300K" than to hit for "300"?

Because one of the reasons that make me keep playing a RPG is to see my character getting stronger and my character strength is measured by the number.

It's not a matter of seing 455349875349 in my screen. It's disgusting seing my character doing less damage (in before relative power) as time passes. If I was doing 5k dps right now I'd have no problem so please don't bring the argument that all I care is huge numbers.

[ypolt]

Because one of the reasons that make me keep playing a RPG is to see my character getting stronger and my character strength is measured by the number.

It's not a matter of seing 455349875349 in my screen. It's disgusting seing my character doing less damage (in before relative power) as time passes. If I was doing 5k dps right now I'd have no problem so please don't bring the argument that all I care is huge numbers.

So to summarize just to make sure I've understood it correctly, you want to feel that you're getting more powerful but don't think relative power, as in killing mobs faster, accomplishes that but numbers do but you don't care about huge numbers?
I'ld have to admit I can't really understand the point of view but everyone has their own idea of what's important to them I guess.

[Thyranne]

So to summarize just to make sure I've understood it correctly, you want to feel that you're getting more powerful but don't think relative power, as in killing mobs faster, accomplishes that but numbers do but you don't care about huge numbers?
I'ld have to admit I can't really understand the point of view but everyone has their own idea of what's important to them I guess.

You misunderstood.

I'm saying that I measure my power in damage and HP so if it's squished even if my relative power remains the same I still feel weaker and that my efforts were meaningless.

[Varabently]

No, never. The gap in MoP is much larger than ever before. Even in Cataclysm, new 85s didn't deal 1/5th the DPS of fully T13-equipped characters. A new 90 might deal 80k at best, while T16H-equipped players can top 450k.

The problem is they need to differentiate rewards within tiers, and they feel the need to separate them by at least 13 itemlvls, and 13 itemlvls is a whopping 10% stat inflation, and in MoP each raid tier has either three or four different reward tiers, plus thunderforged for another 7 itemlvl inflation for the last two tiers, plus valor upgrades across the board for another 8. That's why the gap is so huge now.

In TBC I think new 70s would do something like 500 or 600 dps while geared people could do 2 or 2.5k which is almost 5x.

But I agree MOP seems a lot worse.

[ypolt]

You misunderstood.

I'm saying that I measure my power in damage and HP so if it's squished even if my relative power remains the same I still feel weaker and that my efforts were meaningless.

Fair enough, we simply have very different views on our character progression then

[Zka]

They you should be fine with just the challenge not the extra gear.

You shold not tell what other people should be fine with

- - - Updated - - -

In TBC I think new 70s would do something like 500 or 600 dps while geared people could do 2 or 2.5k which is almost 5x.

But I agree MOP seems a lot worse.

2K+ in BC required T6+ itemlevel and certain pure dps specs only. In reality in our average guild, top DPS started around 800-1100 in T4 gear and finished around 1500-1800 in T6 gear which was completely fine. 500 and 2500 dps were pretty much outliers.

It's hard to compare to nowadays numbers anyway. Back then 1) most specs didn't scale well with all stats. This means that for example crit for shadow priests was close to worthless as only mindblast/swd was able to crit and it was a +50% crit anyway IIRC 2) lots of items were stupidly itemized, see agi for warriors. 3) there was this hybrid vs pure distinction, hybrids were doing crap personal dps but gave great dps buffs/debuffs for everyone.

[Deleted]

New 90s comes out from questing at about ~430-440, and heroic raiders are 570-580, so yeah, its a big gap. But timeless isle make up for that gap quite alot.

[Laurathansal]

No, never. The gap in MoP is much larger than ever before. Even in Cataclysm, new 85s didn't deal 1/5th the DPS of fully T13-equipped characters. A new 90 might deal 80k at best, while T16H-equipped players can top 450k.

The problem is they need to differentiate rewards within tiers, and they feel the need to separate them by at least 13 itemlvls, and 13 itemlvls is a whopping 10% stat inflation, and in MoP each raid tier has either three or four different reward tiers, plus thunderforged for another 7 itemlvl inflation for the last two tiers, plus valor upgrades across the board for another 8. That's why the gap is so huge now.

Just letting you know that using your numbers, then the gap remains basically the same.

Cata - 1/5
MoP - 80/450= 0.178 which is nearly 0.20, making it close to 1/5.

[ypolt]

Just letting you know that using your numbers, then the gap remains basically the same.

Cata - 1/5
MoP - 80/450= 0.178 which is nearly 0.20, making it close to 1/5.

To be fair, he said they did not deal one fifth.
Using only anecdotal evidence Cata was more like a newly dinged doing about half of a fully DS geared player.

[Rizendragon]

No, and there's a perfectly logical reason for why.

#1) The amount of stat points required to make an upgrade seem "significant" has gone up over time. Since a new expansion is always intended as a gear reset, and you can't balance new content with the expectation that people are coming in to it with anything but leveling greens from the previous expansion, but you also want to be sure that those fully decked out with heroics from the previous one will replace their gear, you have a sudden huge jump in item level at the start of a new expansion. Every time this happens, the jump has to be proportionally bigger. 10 stat points used to be a "significant" increase - now we're looking at needing hundreds before you even notice the difference in power.

#2) We've never had as many tiers of gear. Gear from heroic has to be more powerful than gear from normal, which has to be more powerful than gear from flex, which in turn has to be more powerful than gear from LFR, which again has to be more powerful than gear you can get outside of raids in general. When a new tier of content has come out, they needed to jump the item levels such that everyone can progress, and the best progression path didn't become to ignore current content and go back and do old content.

Combined, it means that going from one tier to the next this expansion is a proportionally HUGE step in relative power, so if you compare a fresh 90 to a Heroic Warforged geared player, the gap is proportionally bigger than comparing a fresh 85 to one fully decked out from Heroic Dragonsoul. It would get even worse in WoD if nothing was done.


If you've ever wondered why they're doing the Item Squish - this is the reason.

This actually wasn't really a huge issue until this expansion really. Until this expansion the largest ilvl spread during a tier was during ICC where Marrowgar 10N dropped 251 gear and 25H Lich King dropped 284ilvl gear. Every other tier (as long as you exclude DS LFR which I excluded because it had a lower Ilvl than Ragnaros Heroic) prior to this expansion was a 13-19Ilvl spread with the final boss on heroic having the same Ilvl (or slightly higher in the case of Yogg Saron) as the starting tier of the next raid (IE: 25M 0-lights Yogg Saron had Ilvl 239loot while the 10N ToC bosses had 232 loot).

For whatever reason Blizzard felt that we needed a 41Ilvl spread during T14, a 47 Ilvl spread during T15, and a 46 Ilvl spread during T16. Was the squish needed prior to this expansion? Yes. Has this expansion exacerbated and shown the glaring issue with gear scaling in the game currently? yes. Do I think Blizzard will learn from this and go back to a 13-26 Ilvl spread in WoD? No.

Edit: I thought I should add a reasoning for why I don't think Blizz will change their gear philosophy: The community is full of "erma gerd mah deeps" tards. You don't need a huge Ilvl spike to see a DPS increase. Seeing a gradual increase as you gear up is sufficient. We saw a 25% increase during T7 (2k -> 2.5K) and that was enough. We now see a 100%+ increase during T16 (120k -> 350k+). That is just asinine...

[Teence]

New 90s comes out from questing at about ~430-440, and heroic raiders are 570-580, so yeah, its a big gap. But timeless isle make up for that gap quite alot.

The issue is that in terms of output, TI really does hardly anything to bridge the gap. A player that is fully geared from TI with a 463 weapon will do about 7 times less DPS than a Heroic raider with a 570+ iLvl. You really only start to make a dent once you hit SoO LFR.

[Sam the Wiser]

One of the only few perks as a shadow priest is dotting up fresh 90's. They fly away and I get to see them drop in the distance.

[pikachui]

Its not the gear, youre just bad at the game.


/s

Warning, Post constructively. As well, do not spam by having huge blank space on your comment.

[Ariluz]

The reasons that blizzard is not going to only drop transmog gear from mythic:

1) It gives the high end raider more incentive to farm BiS when better gear drops on heroic. (And also carry players later for gold that want to do more DPS/have better tanking gear/better healing gear/achievments)
2) It allows blizzard to tune Mythic higher. Without having gear that drops from mythic, they'd have to tune it to be around the same completion percentage on mythic with just "heroic" gear.
3) If they don't change the tuning, very few guilds are able to make as quick of progress/any progress because they don't have access to the mythic gear that nerfs the instance for them.

[Common Sense]

It has gotten completely out of control. Being undergeared now puts you at an ocean of disadvantage against a geared player. As late as Wrath I could equip my warlock with nothing but level 60 Warlord's gear and completely dominate in battlegrounds. Sure mechanics were much different back then, but gear clearly had less of an effect as it does now. I'm afraid it'll only get worse in WoD when power will be completely based on gear.

[Sarthan]

Giving heroic modes only transmog gear would slow it down a lot. Heroics should be about the challange, not the gear.

Yup and LFR should give no gear. Unless you are a heroic raider don't speak for us. Thanks

[Seditian]

Main a Hunter? Just curious.

Hunter was my main for about a week, but changed back to my good old Shaman (who's been my main for 3 full expansions). Joined that guild with my Shaman as healer.

[satimy]

I remember in full naxx gear in WOTLK I did 6k on my warrior and by the end I think I was doing 20k.

Full gear from the MV HOF and TOES you could do like 130k and now u can do like 400k

[dexx]

I cant remember being able to solo endgame 5mans being common in previous expansions. Heroic geared players can do that easily in MoP.