Has relative power between Fully Geared vs Ungeared been higher than this before?

[Deleted]

90k is reasonable if they enchant, reforge, and find a weapon.

50k is what 463 gear gets you. 50k in Timeless is simply being bad.

I love when people claim non-sense like that.

90k is absolutely unreasonable in 496 timeless gear and you won't really get a weapon over 450-476 before raiding LFR.

Also it depends on the class, I can guarantee you that a rogue in 496 timeless gear and 450 daggers is not even going to come close to 90k dps, try 40-60k dps.
Even when you are fully lfr equipped with some flex pieces you top out theoretically at around 150-180k dps and heroic raiders still do twice as much easily.

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5 times higher hmm?

In WotLK, when a character of mine hit 80, they usually did around 2000 dps, while ICC raiders did around 10000-16000 dps.

sure when you figure in that ICC raiders pulled that dps with a 30% or so static progression buff in ICC.

Also 2k dps is BAD even when you just hit 90 in WotLK. If memory serves me right I played a retribution paladin at the end of bc and cleared sunwell with my guild and top dps in sunwell was around 3-4k dps (I think) and I don't think when we cleared naxx, malygos heroic, sartharion heroic in week 1 of WotlK and still in t6 that people were doing only 2k dps.

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Yes. At the end of vanilla. You could one shot people as a mage (your only save would be to trinket the sheep after the cast so you could use your flame reflector). If you let yourself get crit once as a pally you could kill anyone inside your stun. The end of vanilla, before there became other ways to get gear besides dungeon blues that were absolutely awful, was the most gear imbalanced in the game.

Literally, outside raids, there was no way to increase your damage as a spell caster besides some sub-60 gear in dm east and mara. The gear you see dropping in the lvl 60 instances now didn't exist. It was only +int+stam gear and int didn't give you spell power.

A non-raid geared 60 was doing maybe 200dps. The top warriors were doing 1k dps.

I don't have anymore vanilla logs but I am sure as hell that you are wrong about warriors doing 1k dps and dungeon set rogues for example doing 200 dps.

To give you an example ok, I was a hunter in the EU 2nd or 3rd Loatheb kill. I had leveled that hunter a few weeks before on that server before I switched to the guild. I basically had 4 t2 pieces and the quest bow but I ranked higher on the dps meter than the other 2 hunters who had better gear and I was like 8th in dmg in a 40 player raid.

That would be impossible right now with the difference gear makes.

[Emeraldon]

I love when people claim non-sense like that.

90k is absolutely unreasonable in 496 timeless gear and you won't really get a weapon over 450-476 before raiding LFR.

Also it depends on the class, I can guarantee you that a rogue in 496 timeless gear and 450 daggers is not even going to come close to 90k dps, try 40-60k dps.
Even when you are fully lfr equipped with some flex pieces you top out theoretically at around 150-180k dps and heroic raiders still do twice as much easily.

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sure when you figure in that ICC raiders pulled that dps with a 30% or so static progression buff in ICC.

Also 2k dps is BAD even when you just hit 90 in WotLK. If memory serves me right I played a retribution paladin at the end of bc and cleared sunwell with my guild and top dps in sunwell was around 3-4k dps (I think) and I don't think when we cleared naxx, malygos heroic, sartharion heroic in week 1 of WotlK and still in t6 that people were doing only 2k dps.

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I don't have anymore vanilla logs but I am sure as hell that you are wrong about warriors doing 1k dps and dungeon set rogues for example doing 200 dps.

To give you an example ok, I was a hunter in the EU 2nd or 3rd Loatheb kill. I had leveled that hunter a few weeks before on that server before I switched to the guild. I basically had 4 t2 pieces and the quest bow but I ranked higher on the dps meter than the other 2 hunters who had better gear and I was like 8th in dmg in a 40 player raid.

That would be impossible right now with the difference gear makes.

Our best geared casters during Naxxramas were doing 700-850 DPS on fights like Gluth / PW. I don't remember seeing anyone above them.

But in regards to OP's question; no. The gap has never been this high and it's absolutely ridiculous. even in Vanilla you stood a chance with lower gear vs high end PvE / rank 14-geared people. Now, a newly dinged 90 has what, 250-290k hp? And PvE-endgame gear gives you over 700.000.

[zorkuus]

I cant remember being able to solo endgame 5mans being common in previous expansions. Heroic geared players can do that easily in MoP.

I soloed 5 mans since wrath. Ok I played a DK but still...

[Acelius]

It's crazy, heroic geared players can prob solo current 5 man heroics due to the dps they pull.

You dont need heroic gear for that. I can solo current 5man heroics as a frost dk, ilvl 561

[Dnusha]

In BC i could oneshot blue geared dude with Mortal Strike while wearing S4 gear, that was pretty cool.

[Jessicka]

There was a pretty spectacular difference at the end of Wrath too. Newly dinged at 80 you'd be at ~2k DPS, by the end of ICC Heroic you were pushing ~20k without the instance buff. Throw in that many classes were Crit/ArPen/Haste capped too so the benefits they saw from gear started to tail off before they'd even completed their BiS sets. So no, this is nothing new at all.

[Deleted]

In BC i could oneshot blue geared dude with Mortal Strike while wearing S4 gear, that was pretty cool.

You could one shot fresh 90s easily now if it was not for the 70% base resilience.
You could probably one shot everyone easily right now if not for that.

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Newly dinged at 80 you'd be at ~2k DPS, by the end of ICC Heroic you were pushing ~20k without the instance buff.

You are way off, and newly dinged at 80 were at 2k dps maybe if you played only self-found and without instances only in green lvl75 quest rewards.

[zorkuus]

You could one shot fresh 90s easily now if it was not for the 70% base resilience.

I bet you could "oneshot" a whole raid of them infact.

[Isaidfreeze70]

I bet you could "oneshot" a whole raid of them infact.

Frost Bomb>>Frozen Orb>>Frost Nova>>Ice Lance = dead 20 man fresh 90 raid

[Goondicker]

Item squish can't come fast enough. Seriously. I'm a huge fan of xp-off twinks and solo'ing old content, but to hell with all that. Idc if we can't even solo MC anymore, the game needs the squish.

[Rizendragon]

Item squish can't come fast enough. Seriously. I'm a huge fan of xp-off twinks and solo'ing old content, but to hell with all that. Idc if we can't even solo MC anymore, the game needs the squish.

It needs the squish and a redesign of the gearing philosophy. We don't need one tier to have as big of a jump as an entire expansion used to have... We haven't had a 100+ilvl increase during an expansion until this one... (from preraid gear to full heroic raid gear that is)

[Racthoh]

i remember in wrath 4v1'ing undergeared 80s on my mage in razor hill during the easter event. don't think that's happening in today's game on a pure dps class.

[ChocoboMog123]

There was a pretty spectacular difference at the end of Wrath too. Newly dinged at 80 you'd be at ~2k DPS, by the end of ICC Heroic you were pushing ~20k without the instance buff. Throw in that many classes were Crit/ArPen/Haste capped too so the benefits they saw from gear started to tail off before they'd even completed their BiS sets. So no, this is nothing new at all.

This. This. This.

I was doing 2k DPS coming out of heroic 5-mans in Wrath, and 23k DPS without ICC buff as a Demo/Destro Lock in ICC 10H gear (I wasn't a Fire Mage, nor a melee with a Shadowmourne and Armor Pen cap).
I was doing 40-50k DPS in 463 gear, and I'm doing over 300k now.

The difference between fresh 80 and ICC gear was relatively larger than the difference between fresh 90 and SoO gear.

[Deleted]

It's out of control because of adding so many difficulties per tier. They could just make lfr/flex overlap with previous raid tier to keep this in fences.

[Giscoicus]

This. This. This.

I was doing 2k DPS coming out of heroic 5-mans in Wrath, and 23k DPS without ICC buff as a Demo/Destro Lock in ICC 10H gear (I wasn't a Fire Mage, nor a melee with a Shadowmourne and Armor Pen cap).
I was doing 40-50k DPS in 463 gear, and I'm doing over 300k now.

The difference between fresh 80 and ICC gear was relatively larger than the difference between fresh 90 and SoO gear.

I'm not going to believe the 23k without buff. That was like... tier 11 or so, I think the dps you needed for tier 11 was 15k for normal. 23k without buff? unlikely.

[Notdev]

2k dps was solid as a new 80 in WoTLK, at least near the start. 2k was raid entry level worthy and was enough for most fights in the joke that was Naxx.
A lot of classes did 20k in ICC on Saurfang/Festergut and Fire Mages/Shadowmourne Warriors could even break 24-25k. That's with 30%, but that's still 15-19k without the 30% buff. I remember doing 18k-19k on Heroic Halion while going down (not dealing with adds for the majority of the fight) as a Shadowmourne Warrior. (BEFORE the Cata patch that introduced reforging and new talents and broke classes, lots of people broke 30k single target in that period)

Cata probably had the least variability. 12-14k was solid as a new 85, I don't think anyone broke 60k on a fight like Ultraxion, and if anyone did, it was a very select few.

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This. This. This.

I was doing 2k DPS coming out of heroic 5-mans in Wrath, and 23k DPS without ICC buff as a Demo/Destro Lock in ICC 10H gear (I wasn't a Fire Mage, nor a melee with a Shadowmourne and Armor Pen cap).
I was doing 40-50k DPS in 463 gear, and I'm doing over 300k now.

The difference between fresh 80 and ICC gear was relatively larger than the difference between fresh 90 and SoO gear.

Unless you're talking about after the Cata patch (4.0), you weren't doing 23k as a Warlock without the ICC buff in 10h gear...

[Giscoicus]

2k dps was solid as a new 80 in WoTLK, at least near the start. 2k was raid entry level worthy and was enough for most fights in the joke that was Naxx.
A lot of classes did 20k in ICC on Saurfang/Festergut and Fire Mages/Shadowmourne Warriors could even break 24-25k. That's with 30%, but that's still 15-19k without the 30% buff. I remember doing 18k-19k on Heroic Halion while going down (not dealing with adds for the majority of the fight) as a Shadowmourne Warrior. (BEFORE the Cata patch that introduced reforging and new talents and broke classes, lots of people broke 30k single target in that period)

Cata probably had the least variability. 12-14k was solid as a new 85, I don't think anyone broke 60k on a fight like Ultraxion, and if anyone did, it was a very select few.

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Unless you're talking about after the Cata patch (4.0), you weren't doing 23k as a Warlock without the ICC buff in 10h gear...

I dont think people really broke 60k without a legendary in Cata.

[Notdev]

I dont think people really broke 60k without a legendary in Cata.

Probably not, but Arms Warriors (Warriors once gain, woo) were right up there with legendary casters. I remember one of my guildie Warriors had a top 5 log for a long time of about 58.5k on Ultraxion. I was a little behind on gear and didn't get tricks but broke 54k I believe.

[Volitar]

Nope especially not since they added things like "warforged" and "thunderforged" >.>

[TheWindWalker]

90k is absolutely unreasonable in 496 timeless gear and you won't really get a weapon over 450-476 before raiding LFR.

It was fairly common to be doing HoF/ToES Normal without a single raid member being over 100k dps at the end of a boss battle. 496 with a 463 weapon doing 90k sounds perfectly fine.

I dont think people really broke 60k without a legendary in Cata.

Exactly. People greatly inflate Cata damage. 40-50k was maximum DPS for for classes and specs in heroic gear without a legendary.