Some Reasons Demon Hunters and Warlocks doesnt share the same theme

[Deleted]

Almoust all of those arguments dont hold water, and some of them are even ridicilous. Only actually sensible argument is that warlock has metamorphosis and some certain DH abilities, but they are rather minor and can easily be worked around.

[Traveler Voltin]

And that post represents your entire argument. You can't face the facts so you plug your ears and tell people to stop telling you the truth.

You can't deny that Blizzard has been actively feeding Demon Hunter abilities, themes, and attributes to the Warlock and Rogue classes.
You can't deny that Blizzard has said in several tweets that the Demon Hunter is impractical for current WoW.
You can't deny that significant overlap the DH has with existing classes, even down to its name.
You can't deny that Warlocks and Rogues do everything a DH would do in the game.
You can't deny that Demon Hunters aren't considered class material due to the division of their WC3 abilities.
You can't deny that the only things separating a DH from a Warlock isn't worth creating a new class over.
You can't deny that the Hunter class and the Warlock class renders the entire purpose of a Demon Hunter class obsolete and pointless.

So the arguments in this thread (and the other threads) are pretty much over at this point.

warlocks steal powers from many demons. demon hunters get their powers from 1 demon. so there is possible spell over lap but is moot.

i deny every one of those damn things because unlike the blind masses i have an imagination. blizzard can and will make demon hunters work when it comes to it.

you have refused to listen to the defenders of demon hunters and how they are not the same. you blindly say demon hunters should be a tank spec for warlocks and ignore the people who want to dps a demon hunters.

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Almoust all of those arguments dont hold water, and some of them are even ridicilous. Only actually sensible argument is that warlock has metamorphosis and some certain DH abilities, but they are rather minor and can easily be worked around.

which i tried to point out by posting the quote from the demon hunter page.

[Teriz]

warlocks steal powers from many demons. demon hunters get their powers from 1 demon. so there is possible spell over lap but is moot.

Sourcing powers from multiple demons or from a single demon is irrelevant to the point that Demon Hunters and Warlocks both get their powers from demons.

i deny every one of those damn things because unlike the blind masses i have an imagination. blizzard can and will make demon hunters work when it comes to it.

Except Blizzard is the one making Warlocks and Demon Hunters the same thing. How is Blizzard going to do the exact opposite of what they've been doing for the last 9 years?

you have refused to listen to the defenders of demon hunters and how they are not the same. you blindly say demon hunters should be a tank spec for warlocks and ignore the people who want to dps a demon hunters.

I understand that people WANT a Demon Hunter class with a DPS spec. The point is that Blizzard has designed the Warlock and the Rogue classes to be houses of all things Demon Hunter.

In short, your argument isn't supported by Blizzard's actions, or the facts.

[Traveler Voltin]

Sourcing powers from multiple demons or from a single demon is irrelevant to the point that Demon Hunters and Warlocks both get their powers from demons.



Except Blizzard is the one making Warlocks and Demon Hunters the same thing. How is Blizzard going to do the exact opposite of what they've been doing for the last 9 years?



I understand that people WANT a Demon Hunter class with a DPS spec. The point is that Blizzard has designed the Warlock and the Rogue classes to be houses of all things Demon Hunter.

In short, your argument isn't supported by Blizzard's actions, or the facts.

your argument is moot and has no facts. after looking at all the named demon hunters they only share 1 spell in common and thats meta. blizzard bastardized warlocks in cata and fucked up what demonology was about in the first place. they fucked it and started this mess. they have to fix it.
you still dont see reason no matter how much you say you do.

i have read both warlock and demon hunter pages. i still fully see them as different things. you dont and refuse to.

[Teriz]

your argument is moot and has no facts. after looking at all the named demon hunters they only share 1 spell in common and thats meta.

Which is yet another irrelevant point (which is false btw) that has no bearing whatsoever on my argument. My argument is that Demon Hunter abilities are firmly in the Warlock and Rogue classes, and that Warlocks share themes with the Demon Hunter class per Blizzard's design. I'm still waiting for a coherent counter argument.

blizzard bastardized warlocks in cata and fucked up what demonology was about in the first place. they fucked it and started this mess. they have to fix it.

Blizzard "fucking up" Demonology is purely your opinion. Considering that there are no signs that Blizzard is going to change Demonology in the near future, it also makes your opinion pointless and irrelevant.

i have read both warlock and demon hunter pages. i still fully see them as different things. you dont and refuse to.

You can see them any way you want to. Again, that isn't relevant to this discussion, or my argument.

Hopefully your next post is more in line with the actual topic at hand.

[Traveler Voltin]

Which is yet another irrelevant point (which is false btw) that has no bearing whatsoever on my argument. My argument is that Demon Hunter abilities are firmly in the Warlock and Rogue classes, and that Warlocks share themes with the Demon Hunter class per Blizzard's design. I'm still waiting for a coherent counter argument.



Blizzard "fucking up" Demonology is purely your opinion. Considering that there are no signs that Blizzard is going to change Demonology in the near future, it also makes your opinion pointless and irrelevant.



You can see them any way you want to. Again, that isn't relevant to this discussion, or my argument.

Hopefully your next post is more in line with the actual topic at hand.

blizzard backed themselves into corner when they changed how demonology worked and are scared to do anything about it. they had no plans for a monk class and it showed up.

demon hunter abilities are not set in stone. the over lap with warlocks has been explained many times and can be worked around easily. hell warlocks are getting cataclysm in WoD and thats not even a demon spell.
rogues have only evasion in common with demon hunters. and unless you can show npcs using other rogue abilities(NAMED NPCs) then your full of it.

[Teriz]

blizzard backed themselves into corner when they changed how demonology worked and are scared to do anything about it.

Again, irrelevant opinion based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever. Please stay on topic.

they had no plans for a monk class and it showed up.

And you're basing this statement on what evidence?

demon hunter abilities are not set in stone. the over lap with warlocks has been explained many times and can be worked around easily.

Which is a nonsensical argument. Why would Blizzard spend years developing a Demon Hunter identity, theme, and ability set, only to totally abandon it to Warlocks, and then create an entirely new theme, identity, and ability set? The entire idea is nothing more than fanboy drivel.

The Demon Hunter ability set is well established, and has been well established for over a decade now. We know what the Demon Hunter ability set in Warcraft is, and the vast majority of that set is firmly in the Warlock class. There is no workaround that, and Blizzard designed it that way.

Remember this thread where my DH concept based strictly on WC3 concepts went up against some a new concept theme?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2-0?p=23834540

Yeah, it was a forgone conclusion. People want the WC3-based DH class. As Talen often says, if Blizzard creates a "workaround" DH concept, it would alienate those its supposed to appeal to in the first place.

rogues have only evasion in common with demon hunters. and unless you can show npcs using other rogue abilities(NAMED NPCs) then your full of it.

Does Illidan Stormrage count?

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=103004
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=31224

[Thimagryn]

And you're basing this statement on what evidence?

Okay, so from that statement, you're looking for evidence. Facts.

We know what the Demon Hunter ability set in Warcraft (3) is, and the vast majority of that set is firmly in the Warlock class. There is no workaround that, and Blizzard designed it that way.

Now you've made a statement without any evidence to prove your point. You have absolutely no evidence to say there is no workaround, because you can't predict what Blizzard will or will not do.

Case in point, you said that no NPCs shared class Abilities as evidenced by the DK and Monk. You were proven wrong, and even admitted your mistake, meaning you're bringing bullshit to the table and using examples you deem convenient to your conversation. Stating what Blizzard can or can not do is absolute bullshit.

[Florena]

I think the most DHs could hope for would be to become a spec in a new, larger scoped class similar to how brewmasters became a spec for the monk class. Rogues have evasion and warlocks have the rest of their spells from WC 3. Both classes heavily involve demons in their lore. Are they identical? No, but I think they're close enough conceptually that there's really not much of a kit left to use without either taking things away from warlocks or copying warlock abilities and thus taking away from the uniqueness of the warlock class and damaging it's current identity, demo in particular. I think the only reason that priest and paladin both work as classes is that the priest class encompases a wide variety of religions in WoW, with some races having light oriented priests yet, but many having other religions like Elune, whatever the trolls do, forgotten shadow, etc. If priests were a purely holy light themed class like paladins then I don't think they'd work alongside paladins.

I think we also have enough 'edgy, use fire to fight fire' classes as it is. THe shadow priest, the warlock, the rogue as the sneaky assassin, the death knight. We don't really need another class like that, if we get something else I'd rather see a class that fills some sort of gap not covered by the current classes.

[Talen]

Demon hunters would use a different system and demon hunters can wear mail.

So - what happened to the class that eschews heavy armor for agility and mobility? They now wear the 2nd heaviest armor in game?

And you are speaking gameplay. Sure.

That works.

They'd still be a lightly armored AGI based dual wielding meleer who makes use of magic and melee attacks and we already have tywo of those.

Why do we need a third?

EJL

[Florena]

Okay, so from that statement, you're looking for evidence. Facts.



Now you've made a statement without any evidence to prove your point. You have absolutely no evidence to say there is no workaround, because you can't predict what Blizzard will or will not do.

Case in point, you said that no NPCs shared class Abilities as evidenced by the DK and Monk. You were proven wrong, and even admitted your mistake, meaning you're bringing bullshit to the table and using examples you deem convenient to your conversation. Stating what Blizzard can or can not do is absolute bullshit.

What would the workaround be? The only options I see would be to A. take things away from warlocks or B. give them to both classes and thus dillute the flavor and specialness of both.

[Traveler Voltin]

Again, irrelevant opinion based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever. Please stay on topic.



And you're basing this statement on what evidence?



Which is a nonsensical argument. Why would Blizzard spend years developing a Demon Hunter identity, theme, and ability set, only to totally abandon it to Warlocks, and then create an entirely new theme, identity, and ability set? The entire idea is nothing more than fanboy drivel.

The Demon Hunter ability set is well established, and has been well established for over a decade now. We know what the Demon Hunter ability set in Warcraft is, and the vast majority of that set is firmly in the Warlock class. There is no workaround that, and Blizzard designed it that way.

Remember this thread where my DH concept based strictly on WC3 concepts went up against some a new concept theme?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2-0?p=23834540

Yeah, it was a forgone conclusion. People want the WC3-based DH class. As Talen often says, if Blizzard creates a "workaround" DH concept, it would alienate those its supposed to appeal to in the first place.




Does Illidan Stormrage count?

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=103004
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=31224

yes it is. they backed themselves into a corner with the reworked demonology spec.

no one expected to have a monk class. i wanted the forums most classes that were wanted were demon hunters or tinkers. monks came out of no where.

i just posted a how demon hunters abilities are not set in stone and you ignored it.

shadowcloak and cloak of shadows are not the same thing. also illidan was a mage before he was a demon hunter. so its understandable how he can turn invisible. using TBC illidan throws any points you make out the window. he is more demon than anything else.

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So - what happened to the class that eschews heavy armor for agility and mobility? They now wear the 2nd heaviest armor in game?

And you are speaking gameplay. Sure.

That works.

They'd still be a lightly armored AGI based dual wielding meleer who makes use of magic and melee attacks and we already have tywo of those.

Why do we need a third?

EJL

hunters are highly moble and use mail armor.

[Teriz]

Okay, so from that statement, you're looking for evidence. Facts.

Now you've made a statement without any evidence to prove your point. You have absolutely no evidence to say there is no workaround, because you can't predict what Blizzard will or will not do.

I can predict that Blizzard isn't going to retcon 9 years of design just to shoehorn a class into the game that they have stated overlaps with existing classes, and that they have no plans to implement.

What's next? Are you going to ask me to post the Blizzard tweets that we both know you've read several times?

Case in point, you said that no NPCs shared class Abilities as evidenced by the DK and Monk. You were proven wrong, and even admitted your mistake, meaning you're bringing bullshit to the table and using examples you deem convenient to your conversation. Stating what Blizzard can or can not do is absolute bullshit.

Now you're simply being intellectually dishonest. Yes I made a mistake in regards to NPCs, however, I was correct about the classes, which is the more important point anyway. Who cares if NPCs had WC3 hero abilities before the actual class entered the game? We expect that. The more important point (the one that you keep ignoring) is that neither the Death Knight, nor the Monk (Brewmaster) class had any WC3 abilities sitting out in existing classes at the time of their release. Not a single one.

Meanwhile ALL of the Demon Hunter's abilities are in existing classes. Putting them with such potential classes as Blademasters, Shadow Hunters, Wardens, Priestess of the Moon, and others.

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What would the workaround be? The only options I see would be to A. take things away from warlocks or B. give them to both classes and thus dillute the flavor and specialness of both.

They're promoting C. Creating an entirely different DH class divorced from overlap with the Rogue and Warlock classes. An idea which completely defeats the main purpose of putting them in the game in the first place.

[Talen]

Now you've made a statement without any evidence to prove your point. You have absolutely no evidence to say there is no workaround, because you can't predict what Blizzard will or will not do.

Prediction has nothing to do with it.

Blizzard has issues with the class because of problems such as the lack of deisgn space or the name. Yes, some of those are minor but the design space issue is the big one.

The workaround you seek here would need to create a new design space for the class, around which its own unique identity could be formed.

That's easy for the gameplay aspect. Its the rest of the design space you need to worry about. You'd need to drop the demon connection. You'd need to lose Metamorphosis. That in turn means the existing DH lore is largely meaningless and you have lost everything that makes a DH a DH.

What, after all, is the basic class concept? A warrior who embraces Demon Magic to fight Demons. Would you agree with that? That concept fits Warlocks as well. And its what you can't take away from Demon Hunters.

If you want to bring a D3 style DH (or similar) into the game...and wioudl be satisfied with that...this would be an acceptable solution. But that isn't what is wanted. Players don't want Buffy, they don't want Valla, they don't want Van Helsing...at least, as Demon Hunters.

They want Illidan.

Is there a way to workaround the issues here? To break the design space, make it unique, give it space to grow and form its own identity - and yet, keep the existing lore, class concepts, themes, etc that embody the current DH?

No. Because one comes with the other. Get rid of the overlap and you get rid of what makes a DH a DH.

What about a lookalike class then? Possibly. In this case, you need to design a lightly armored AGI based dual wielding class that mixes magic and melee.

And...differentiate it from the Rogue and Monk. And then realise it doesn't have the Demon lore, Metamorphosis or the DH looks, concepts or themes.

How is that going to appeal to those who want a Demon Hunter? It isn't.

So - a workaround? I'd say a workaround is not possible. Instead, what you need to do is suggest Blizzard simply ignores the issues it has seen and dismissed, for whatever reason, the likely impact on existing classes.

As it is?
A DH class is all but impossible.
A DH spec attached to a brand new class is slightly more likely....depending on what compromises are made. Meta would be gone, and the Demon lore heavily de-emphasised somehow (see difficulties above).
A DH spec attached to rogues? More likely given the existing overlaps but there'd still be difficulties.
A DH spec attached to Warlocks? Most likely given the huge degree of overlap. The big problem of design space becomes, with option, a huge design advantage.

No matter how much you or I want a DH class, the truth is it can't be justified from a design point of view.

EJL

[Florena]

I can predict that Blizzard isn't going to retcon 9 years of design just to shoehorn a class into the game that they have stated overlaps with existing classes, and that they have no plans to implement.

What's next? Are you going to ask me to post the Blizzard tweets that we both know you've read several times?



Now you're simply being intellectually dishonest. Yes I made a mistake in regards to NPCs, however, I was correct about the classes, which is the more important point anyway. Who cares if NPCs had WC3 hero abilities before the actual class entered the game? We expect that. The more important point (the one that you keep ignoring) is that neither the Death Knight, nor the Monk (Brewmaster) class had any WC3 abilities sitting out in existing classes at the time of their release. Not a single one.

Meanwhile ALL of the Demon Hunter's abilities are in existing classes. Putting them with such potential classes as Blademasters, Shadow Hunters, Wardens, Priestess of the Moon, and others.

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They're promoting C. Creating an entirely different DH class divorced from overlap with the Rogue and Warlock classes. An idea which completely defeats the main purpose of putting them in the game in the first place.

I agree. Warlocks have too much of the DH in their demo spec now and if they're going to make a new identity why not just make a new class altogether?

As for previous hero class abilities, before anyone brings up death coil I'd like to point out that the vanilla Warlock death coil functioned nothing like the Death Knight death coil from wc 3, and the Death Knight version of the spell in WoW is much closer to the WC 3 version. Where as while immolation aura and meta might be tweaked a bit to fit warlocks in WoW, they fill pretty much the same role as they did in WC3.

[Talen]

yes it is. they backed themselves into a corner with the reworked demonology spec.

Backed into a corner? How? From **MY** pov, Demonology ended up exactly where they wanted it. And if there was an issue with the way it made DHs harder to bring in....

It is difficult for me to see how a design direction they have followed for 7 years can be said to Blizzard being "backed into a corner".

The overlap with DHs? The overlap in design space that makes DHs imposisble to add as a separate class?
That is a deliberate design decision. Not an accidental side effect of class design.

no one expected to have a monk class. i wanted the forums most classes that were wanted were demon hunters or tinkers. monks came out of no where.

That's because in the discussions you watched, Monks already existed.

The idea of a Monk class has been discussed since Vanilla. Even then, it was being tied into a possible Pandaren because of the obvious Oriental links to both. The Monk class was expected at some point.

Especially by Blizzard. WHo have spent the opast few years tearing the DH class apart and moulding Demonoogists to take up that role.

shadowcloak and cloak of shadows are not the same thing. also illidan was a mage before he was a demon hunter.

And many Mages become Warlocks. As it is, simply because Illidan was a Mage doesn't mean his in game toolkit reflects that. How many DKs have Crusader Strike? His toolkit will be built up as a Demon Hunter.

EJL

[Florena]

Backed into a corner? How?



That's because in the discussions you watched, Monks already existed.

The idea of a Monk class has been discussed since Vanilla. Even then, it was being tied into a possible Pandaren because of the obvious Oriental links to both. The Monk class was expected at some point.

Especially by Blizzard. WHo have spent the opast few years tearing the DH class apart and moulding Demonoogists to take up that role.



And many Mages become Warlocks. As it is, simply because Illidan was a Mage doesn't mean his in game toolkit reflects that. How many DKs have Crusader Strike? His toolkit will be built up as a Demon Hunter.

EJL

I could see them backed into a corner if they did this unintentionally and then realized 'crap this makes making the DH class we really want to make difficult.' I think it's more likely though it was intentional.

I could see some people taking the easter egg quest in Darkshore as a sign pointing towards demon hunters, but I I'm not so sure about that given all the identity issues at hand. Still blizz may surprise me.

[Teriz]

Even the D3 DH workaround wouldn't work. Another bow-using class in the game called a "Demon Hunter" would thoroughly piss off the existing Hunter players.

It also doesn't help that a WoW Hunter with "track demons" activated in his mini-map is a Demon Hunter anyway.

[Deleted]

Always nice to see a thread like this granted their are 56853 other threads exactly like this one. You gotta give respect to the demon huntards, they are relentless in wanting them, you never going to get them, but um still nice to see. Keep on reaching for that rainbow Demon huntards we luv you o/

Infracted, please do no spam or post in a non-constructive manner. This is your second post of the same contact yet nothing constructive.

[Traveler Voltin]

I agree. Warlocks have too much of the DH in their demo spec now and if they're going to make a new identity why not just make a new class altogether?

As for previous hero class abilities, before anyone brings up death coil I'd like to point out that the vanilla Warlock death coil functioned nothing like the Death Knight death coil from wc 3, and the Death Knight version of the spell in WoW is much closer to the WC 3 version. Where as while immolation aura and meta might be tweaked a bit to fit warlocks in WoW, they fill pretty much the same role as they did in WC3.

in wrath i think meta was just a normal dps increase cooldown.
warlocks meta makes them able to melee.
demon hunters meta looks completely different and allows them to range.
everything was perfectly fine until blizzard backed themselves into a corner reworking demo to be all about meta instead how it original was.