Some Reasons Demon Hunters and Warlocks doesnt share the same theme

[Florena]

in wrath i think meta was just a normal dps increase cooldown.
warlocks meta makes them able to melee.
demon hunters meta looks completely different and allows them to range.
everything was perfectly fine until blizzard backed themselves into a corner reworking demo to be all about meta instead how it original was.

It's the same basic concept. 'Turn into a demon and deal more damage.' The fact that the DH one would let them attack from range and would look a bit different isn't enough to differentiate it from warlock Meta.

[Traveler Voltin]

It's the same basic concept. 'Turn into a demon and deal more damage.' The fact that the DH one would let them attack from range and would look a bit different isn't enough to differentiate it from warlock Meta.

was just point out slight differences.

[Thimagryn]

It's the same basic concept. 'Turn into a demon and deal more damage.' The fact that the DH one would let them attack from range and would look a bit different isn't enough to differentiate it from warlock Meta.

Then make it one that keeps them melee. The whole mechanic of turning Ranged to Melee and Melee to Ranged doesn't exactly translate to WoW gameplay anyways. Now we have a pure melee Demon Hunter, who may have a few ranged spells. I doubt people would be up in arms about a Demon form that doesn't shoot fireballs, just like the Warcraft 3 version. Hell, Monks were shipped without their iconic Ultimate ability, and no one thought Brewmasters were any less of their Warcraft 3 counterpart.

[Florena]

was just point out slight differences.

Yes, but those slight differences always exist when taking a spell from WC 3 and bringing it into WoW. My point is that even the original cooldown version was too similar to DH meta for them both to exist in the game at the same time without muddying their identities.

I also disagree with the 'backed into a corner' thing. They've backed DH advocates into a corner maybe, but saying they backed themselves into a corner implies that they want to make a DH class but feel they can't or that it'd be hard due to what they've done with warlocks. We have no reason to believe that this was accidental or that they have a particular desire to make DH class over other potential classes.

[Drahkais]

Demon Hunter is a Rogue with Immolate and Metamorphosis, if we're going to go by the Warcraft III unit. I'm sure they could do more with it to bend it into something deserving of another class, but at face value Demon Hunter does not fit the bill.

And why so much focus on Demon Hunter? Yeah, Illidan was cool, okay. Even if you get this class you aren't going to be Illidan. What about Shadow Hunter? Warden? Blood Mage? Why don't these get as much attention?

People just want to be melee Warlocks with Warglaives.

[Florena]

Then make it one that keeps them melee. The whole mechanic of turning Ranged to Melee and Melee to Ranged doesn't exactly translate to WoW gameplay anyways. Now we have a pure melee Demon Hunter, who may have a few ranged spells. I doubt people would be up in arms about a Demon form that doesn't shoot fireballs, just like the Warcraft 3 version. Hell, Monks were shipped without their iconic Ultimate ability, and no one thought Brewmasters were any less of their Warcraft 3 counterpart.

The problem isn't the ranged to melee or melee to ranged thing. The problem is that they're both spells that turn you into a demon so you deal more damage, and even then as best as I can recall the graphics for both forms aren't even THAT different from one another, though I'd have to look up the old wc3 dh meta model to be 100% on that.

You'll also notice there's no Brewmaster 'class' in WoW. There's BM spec yes, it's only part of a larger overarching class, and I said earlier in the threat that maybe DH could have a similar fate as part of a larger class, but even then, they still had most of their abilities from wc 3 in their WoW form. And, this is important here, there was no overlap with other classes. No class had a martial arts theme unless you count rogues kicking as an interrupt. There's a difference betwen one of the wc 3 abilities not making it into WoW for a class that has no artistic overlap with existing classes, and a class that has ALL of its spells from WC 3 given out to existing classes already. Every last one of them.

[Thimagryn]

I can predict that Blizzard isn't going to retcon 9 years of design just to shoehorn a class into the game that they have stated overlaps with existing classes, and that they have no plans to implement.

Because they'e never retconned any of their design to make a class fit?

Death Knights are champions of the scourge. They retconned the entire character of Darius Mograine into the picture, a character that was supposed to be a lowly Blacksmith somewhere in Outland. Without Darius, the Death Knights would not be a class playable in the Horde and Alliance.

Chen Stormstout is also retconned, being a Pandaren from Pandaria but changed to having his origins stem from the Wandering Isle. In MoP, he has never been to Pandaria. Without Chen, we may not have found Pandaria (as Nazgrel/Taylor could have killed each other on that island)

So yes, retcons happen.

[Talen]

everything was perfectly fine until blizzard backed themselves into a corner reworking demo to be all about meta instead how it original was.

Everything is perfectly fine now.

Blizzards only "backed into a corner" if you assume they actually want to add a DH class.

EJL

[Traveler Voltin]

Yes, but those slight differences always exist when taking a spell from WC 3 and bringing it into WoW. My point is that even the original cooldown version was too similar to DH meta for them both to exist in the game at the same time without muddying their identities.

I also disagree with the 'backed into a corner' thing. They've backed DH advocates into a corner maybe, but saying they backed themselves into a corner implies that they want to make a DH class but feel they can't or that it'd be hard due to what they've done with warlocks. We have no reason to believe that this was accidental or that they have a particular desire to make DH class over other potential classes.

they backed themselves into a corner. its that simple, the reworked to demonology shows this.

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Everything is perfectly fine now.

Blizzards only "backed into a corner" if you assume they actually want to add a DH class.

EJL

they did awhile ago and as far as we know its still on the list.

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Because they'e never retconned any of their design to make a class fit?

Death Knights are champions of the scourge. They retconned the entire character of Darius Mograine into the picture, a character that was supposed to be a lowly Blacksmith somewhere in Outland. Without Darius, the Death Knights would not be a class playable in the Horde and Alliance.

Chen Stormstout is also retconned, being a Pandaren from Pandaria but changed to having his origins stem from the Wandering Isle. In MoP, he has never been to Pandaria. Without Chen, we would have no initial connection to the Pandarens, and no Monk class as a result.

So yes, retcons happen.

hell mezten wants playable naga. which is very odd.

[Florena]

they backed themselves into a corner. its that simple, the reworked to demonology shows this.

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they did awhile ago and as far as we know its still on the list.

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hell mezten wants playable naga. which is very odd.

Again, whose to say they didn't back themselves into that 'corner' on purpose? Maybe they decided they'd never make a DH class and decided to give that stuff to warlocks purposefully because of it? It's not neccisarily a 'corner' they even want to get out of.

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Because they'e never retconned any of their design to make a class fit?

Death Knights are champions of the scourge. They retconned the entire character of Darius Mograine into the picture, a character that was supposed to be a lowly Blacksmith somewhere in Outland. Without Darius, the Death Knights would not be a class playable in the Horde and Alliance.

Chen Stormstout is also retconned, being a Pandaren from Pandaria but changed to having his origins stem from the Wandering Isle. In MoP, he has never been to Pandaria. Without Chen, we may not have found Pandaria (as Nazgrel/Taylor could have killed each other on that island)

So yes, retcons happen.

Not really, they could have just made up a new character or used any other DK for his role in getting the DKs into the horde or alliance. Mograine himself wasn't instrumental in it, anyone could have been leading them, it was Tirion's word that was important in convincing Thrall and Varian to give them a chance and not cut them down, they could have used any other dk and just tweaked the story at light's hope chapple.

And what did CHen have to do with us finding Pandaria? I don't think those characters on the cinematic are Taylor/Nazgrim (assuming you meant Nazgrim not Nazgrel, similar names easy to confuse) or any named npc character anyway. Chen doens't even have anything to do with anything all that important, he's not as important to the overall story as say Chen or Taran Zhu. He tags along with the horde in 5.3 and we go on some quests with him in the valley and dread wastes but he's hardly a critical character for MoP as a whole.

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Everything is perfectly fine now.

Blizzards only "backed into a corner" if you assume they actually want to add a DH class.

EJL

This, Talen said what I was trying to say but better.

[ComputerNerd]

Glaives are the signature weapon of the class, and therefore simply lose their meaning if they were to be used by anyone else.
Simply a stupid idea to have a weapon type which is unique to one class. See how that works with intellect plate, only would be even worse.

There is simply too much of the signature mechanics of the demon hunter implemented in warlocks and rogues.
People are so desperate to keep the idea alive that they will dredge up the most obscure abilities.
That does not make the class a demon hunter.
It would be one only by name.

Detecting Demons and Undead ? Warlocks had half of that in the ability Detect Demons which functioned much like the undead tracking already present on hunters.
Yeah that is really a signature ability not already used.

What people recognise as a demon hunter would be lost if you aren't to rip off rogues and warlocks.
And then people would whine about that, like how affliction warlocks and shadow priests were deemed too close.

It would not work without giving you something very different from what you are asking for.

[Thimagryn]

Not really, they could have just made up a new character or used any other DK for his role in getting the DKs into the horde or alliance. Mograine himself wasn't instrumental in it, anyone could have been leading them, it was Tirion's word that was important in convincing Thrall and Varian to give them a chance and not cut them down, they could have used any other dk and just tweaked the story at light's hope chapple.

Exactly, they could have done that. Instead, they chose to retcon a character that was hinted at in Vanilla. This is a clear example of a retcon that impacts the identity of a playable class, which Teriz says Blizzard is not willing to do.

And what did CHen have to do with us finding Pandaria? I don't think those characters on the cinematic are Taylor/Nazgrim (assuming you meant Nazgrim not Nazgrel, similar names easy to confuse) or any named npc character anyway. Chen doens't even have anything to do with anything all that important, he's not as important to the overall story as say Chen or Taran Zhu. He tags along with the horde in 5.3 and we go on some quests with him in the valley and dread wastes but he's hardly a critical character for MoP as a whole.

Then why retcon Chen's background to being from the Wandering Isle instead of from Pandaria? It's clear that his role in exploring Pandaria for the first time alongside the player is meant to create a stronger interactive experience, rather than him purely being a guide like Lorewalker Cho. Chen is the guy in the cinematic, box art and the one we associate the Brewmasters and Monks with.

[Florena]

Exactly, they could have done that. Instead, they chose to retcon a character that was hinted at in Vanilla. This is a clear example of a retcon that impacts the identity of a playable class, which Teriz says Blizzard is not willing to do.



Then why retcon Chen's background to being from the Wandering Isle instead of from Pandaria? It's clear that his role in exploring Pandaria for the first time alongside the player is meant to create a stronger interactive experience, rather than him purely being a guide like Lorewalker Cho. Chen is the guy in the cinematic, box art and the one we associate the Brewmasters and Monks with.

How did that retcon affect the identity of DKs? So one character we thought was in Outland turned up as a death knight, how does that affect their took lit as a class or their overall class lore? If they had swapped him out for another npc the class would be identical to what it is now, with only very minor tweaking to the actual story and lore.

Yes, that's exactly what Chen's role was. Chen is in the cinematic, etc but he didn't really affect the story of MoP much or the monk class beyond being a hero unit for would become 1/3 of the monk class we have today. They could have cut Chen out of the story altogether and the only things that would have changed would be we wouldn't have an npc to explore the valley with. He's hardly a crucial character overall. It was a retcon but Chen being retconned to be from the wandering isle and not pandaria barely affected the story at all and had no bearing on the actual monk class.

The thing with demon hunters isn't that it would require a lore retcon, but that they would either have to A. take things away from demo locks, not acceptable, B. give them spells that demo locks already have, which is redundant and would make both feel less unique, or C. build up a new spellset for the DH at which point you risk changing them so much they're not really recognizable anyway.

[Talen]

they backed themselves into a corner. its that simple, the reworked to demonology shows this.

The rework to demonology ended where they wanted it. They didn't back themselves into a corner. They left themselves in a poor position to bring in the DH as a class...because they aren't bringing it in. As a result, they are free to take abilities and looks and themes and concepts and add them to existing classes.

they did awhile ago and as far as we know its still on the list.

Latest update from a couple of months back? Its not. They have no plans to bring it in.

Zarhym ‏@CM_Zarhym Jan 7@Jp3970 I mean, there's potential for any class when you put it that way. But we have no plans for Demon Hunter.

hell mezten wants playable naga. which is very odd.

He wants Ogres and Drakonids and High Elves as well but he isn't getting his way in everything.

EJL

[Thimagryn]

How did that retcon affect the identity of DKs? So one character we thought was in Outland turned up as a death knight, how does that affect their took lit as a class or their overall class lore? If they had swapped him out for another npc the class would be identical to what it is now, with only very minor tweaking to the actual story and lore.

Yes, that's exactly what Chen's role was. Chen is in the cinematic, etc but he didn't really affect the story of MoP much or the monk class beyond being a hero unit for would become 1/3 of the monk class we have today. They could have cut Chen out of the story altogether and the only things that would have changed would be we wouldn't have an npc to explore the valley with. He's hardly a crucial character overall. It was a retcon but Chen being retconned to be from the wandering isle and not pandaria barely affected the story at all and had no bearing on the actual monk class.

The thing with demon hunters isn't that it would require a lore retcon, but that they would either have to A. take things away from demo locks, not acceptable, B. give them spells that demo locks already have, which is redundant and would make both feel less unique, or C. build up a new spellset for the DH at which point you risk changing them so much they're not really recognizable anyway.

1. Explain that the old Metamorphosis was unrefined, using corrupted techniques that are directly influenced by demons
2. Explain that Warlocks use this Metamorphosis by tapping into the corrupted Demon Hunter methods (laid out by Illidan)
3. Player Character is taught a NEW method of channeling energy internally, using Arcane Rune tattooes. This new method channels all kinds of magic in a more controlled manner
4. Player Character can turn into a Demon Form by channeling Fel Magic through Rune Tattooes. This form is different from 'Shadow Illidan' that Warlocks use.
5. Insert new gameplay mechanics revolving around this new form, theming it on Rune Channeling. This Demon Form is purely melee, and does not use Demonic Fury. This form uses Arcane and (Fel)Fire magic, instead of Shadow and (Fel)Fire.

Now we have 2 classes using 2 different methods to achieve the same result. Different forms, different mechanics, different lore.

Shadow Form uses Shadow, Metamorphosis uses Fel/Shadow, this new Demon Form uses a combination of Arcane/Fel.

[Florena]

1. Explain that the old Metamorphosis was unrefined, using corrupted techniques that are directly influenced by demons
2. Explain that Warlocks use this Metamorphosis by tapping into the corrupted Demon Hunter methods (laid out by Illidan)
3. Player Character is taught a NEW method of channeling energy internally, using Arcane Rune tattooes. This new method channels all kinds of magic in a more controlled manner
4. Player Character can turn into a Demon Form by channeling Fel Magic through Rune Tattooes. This form is different from 'Shadow Illidan' that Warlocks use.
5. Insert new gameplay mechanics revolving around this new form, theming it on Rune Channeling. This Demon Form is purely melee, and does not use Demonic Fury. This form uses Arcane and (Fel)Fire magic, instead of Shadow and (Fel)Fire.

Now we have 2 classes using 2 different methods to achieve the same result. Different forms, different mechanics, different lore.

Shadow Form uses Shadow, Metamorphosis uses Fel/Shadow, this new Demon Form uses a combination of Arcane/Fel.

I'm not arguing that the methods of the warlock and demon hunter are identical. I'm arguing from a gameplay perspective that it's just silly to make a new class with a core mechanic that is virtually identical to a spec already in game, a new class or spec that has turning into a demon form to deal increased damage would be redundant even if there's a different lore explanation. Being a melee demon form instead of a ranged demon form imo isn't enough of a difference.

Taking a class's core mechanic, sprucing it up with a bit of new lore and new gameplay mechanics, and then giving it to a new class just seems like a dick move to warlocks. If windwalker spec was a shado pan spec with fully functional and improved stealth I would call that a dick move against rogues.

[Thimagryn]

I'm not arguing that the methods of the warlock and demon hunter are identical. I'm arguing from a gameplay perspective that it's just silly to make a new class with a core mechanic that is virtually identical to a spec already in game, a new class or spec that has turning into a demon form to deal increased damage would be redundant even if there's a different lore explanation. Being a melee demon form instead of a ranged demon form imo isn't enough of a difference.


Taking a class's core mechanic, sprucing it up with a bit of new lore and new gameplay mechanics, and then giving it to a new class just seems like a dick move to warlocks. If windwalker spec was a shado pan spec with fully functional and improved stealth I would call that a dick move against rogues.

Instead windwalkers overlap shamans by using SEF

[Florena]

Instead windwalkers overlap shamans by using SEF

I didn't know shamans were ever known to split into three elemental spirits. You win.

Oh wait. What's that? SE&F was a BREWMASTER spell? Whuch is now part of the monk class? Nevermind.

[Lovestar]

Instead windwalkers overlap shamans by using SEF

Yeah, sorry, at first glance that sounds reasonable (a lot of people thought that in 5.2), but @Malzra is right... Monks definitely had claim to this one first.

If they had given SEF to Shaman pre-MoP, it would actually have been Shamans stealing from Monks, which would be very similar to Locks getting Meta. But aside from the name, SEF doesn't really resemble anything Shamanistic in the WoW context.

You could rename the spirits "Beer, Tiger, and Mist" and the concept would be pretty much unaffected. Storm / Earth / Fire seems more like a reference to Xuen, Niuzao, and Chi-Ji in this case. That is, WWs are invoking the Celestials, not The Elements™ as Shaman do.

vs. Lock Meta, which is pretty much a carbon-copy of the Demon Hunter tool.

[Thimagryn]

I didn't know shamans were ever known to split into three elemental spirits. You win.

Oh wait. What's that? SE&F was a BREWMASTER spell? Whuch is now part of the monk class? Nevermind.

Then lets adress your previous example of stealth. Feral druids wear leather, fight in melee with energy and fight with stealth. This has no impact on rogue identity. At all.