Last edited by Talen; 2014-02-09 at 02:09 AM.
Actually, Feral Druids Prowl, and have a completely different toolkit while stealthed. Actual 'I AM SNEAKING AROUND ON MY TIPTOES' Stealth stealth is still the Rogue's domain.
The point is that while mechanically it's all stealth, conceptually, one is a sneaky man and the other is a great cat stalking its prey. Metamorphosis is Meta is Meta, unless you a) take Demon Form away from Demo (unlikely) or b) change Demon Hunters to not turn into Demons. Or otherwise deliberately modify it on a conceptual level.
It's absolutely possible to say, turn Metamorphosis into some other thing (but keep the playstyle) then split Meta back to Demon Hunter, similar to what happened with Death Coil. But it would be a very deliberate choice and it's still a different type of thing than the other examples being fished for here.
My brother was able to tank heroics easily as his Demonology Warlock with Glyph of Demon Hunting and I would like to see that implemented as Demon Hunter for Warlock's 4th spec, and then Demonlogy can go back to just having strong demons.
Last edited by Agoonga; 2014-02-09 at 01:47 AM.
Ugh. I hate demon hunters. I deal with them enough already on RP servers, I don't want more.
None of that was design. That's lore. The design we're talking about is class design.
Since the beginning of WoW, Blizzard has methodically placed DH aspects in the Warlock and Rogue classes. They also named the bow-class Hunters because they had no intention of introducing a class called Demon Hunters. Just like they wouldn't introduce an Archdruid, Archmage, or Battle Mage class. Your argument is that Blizzard is going to undo all of that and purposely piss off Rogue, Warlock, and Hunter players for no real reason.
The only reason you've provided is because they can do it.
The problem with that reasoning is that it doesn't make sense given Blizzard's course of action over the last 10 years. It also doesn't make sense period.
I agree with the previous post. Anyways, if Blizzard really wants to add the Demon Hunter back, I see this in a 4th spe for the Hunter. It would be a retribution hunter spe, the retribution hunter, toward the vile demons obviously....
Since the beginning Priests were defined as pure Holy users. A Priest using Shadow Magic was purely an invention of WoW. Even the Dark Troll Shadow Priests had 'Heal' and 'Dispel', and absolutely no shadow magic. Priests being able to use Shadow Magic is clearly a retcon, considering it is an anti-thesis to the identity of the class prior to WoW.
Because my reasons are not claims. I am not claiming that Blizzard will do it, whereas you are directly making a claim that Blizzard will never pursue a Demon Hunter class. I don't need evidence to tell you that you can't predict the future. You can't use what hasn't happened yet as clear evidence against any new class. You can only say it is unlikely to happen, yet you continually say it will not happen. You have no evidence, only theories based on patterns that may change at any moment.The only reason you've provided is because they can do it.
It doesn't matter whether you think I'm right or wrong, you can't make predictions and say it's fact. You only have theories, that is all. You may be 100% right over the course of WoW's lifespan, but you can not make claims as though it is fact just because you find a pattern that is convenient to your argument.The problem with that reasoning is that it doesn't make sense given Blizzard's course of action over the last 10 years. It also doesn't make sense period.
You used the DK NPC argument and said it was clear evidence, only to be 100% wrong in your assumption. You can't predict the future, period. This is the only reason I am continually debating your points. I do not make any claims that Demon Hunters should or will happen, I am simply saying you can not dismiss the possibility that they can be a playable class, and I am providing theoretical examples of how it could be possible.
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That is all possibility, but I will maintain that 'turning into a demon' can still be different as long as it is a different type, or explained as a different method of accessing that ability. It's difficult to wrap your head around the concept because it does not yet exist, but consider the unique mechanic of Turning into Beasts as an iconic Druid theme, then taking Ghost Wolf into consideration. It doesn't matter if it is non-combat or not, it is a theme that is shared with Druids. If I suggested a non-combat Demon Form ability for Demon Hunters, you would still argue that it's too similar to Warlocks, am I wrong?
Last edited by Thimagryn; 2014-02-09 at 07:27 AM.
Which isn't the same thing as the DH situation. Priests having a Shadow spec doesn't overlap with multiple classes in the game.
The Warlock class possessing the core DH ability, several other DH abilities, Illidan-inspired armor, and the glyph of Demon Hunting is quite a lot of evidence. Blizzard pointing out DH overlap and saying they have no plans for a DH class is evidence. Hunters being in the game and having Track Demons is evidence.Because my reasons are not claims. I am not claiming that Blizzard will do it, whereas you are directly making a claim that Blizzard will never pursue a Demon Hunter class. I don't need evidence to tell you that you can't predict the future. You can't use what hasn't happened yet as clear evidence against any new class. You can only say it is unlikely to happen, yet you continually say it will not happen. You have no evidence, only theories based on patterns that may change at any moment.
All of that evidence points to Blizzard not wanting DHs to be a stand alone class. Why? Because Blizzard has no design space left to construct a DH class. Blizzard themselves removed the design space from DHs, and they started doing that at the beginning of WoW.
None of that is a theory. It's all facts.
Actually I can dismiss it. Blizzard's actions over the better part of a decade points to a DH class never being implemented. Your theoretical examples are nonsense, because the popular DH concept is the concept currently being occupied by Warlocks, Rogues, and Hunters. Blizzard introducing a DH class free of the design space of Warlocks, Rogues, and Hunters wouldn't be popular among the very core group it's supposed to appeal to in the first place, and still tick off the existing player base.It doesn't matter whether you think I'm right or wrong, you can't make predictions and say it's fact. You only have theories, that is all. You may be 100% right over the course of WoW's lifespan, but you can not make claims as though it is fact just because you find a pattern that is convenient to your argument.
You used the DK NPC argument and said it was clear evidence, only to be 100% wrong in your assumption. You can't predict the future, period. This is the only reason I am continually debating your points. I do not make any claims that Demon Hunters should or will happen, I am simply saying you can not dismiss the possibility that they can be a playable class, and I am providing theoretical examples of how it could be possible.
In short, the only way Blizzard could introduce a DH class is the following;
1. Ignore the overlap and shoehorn the class into the game.
2. Create a completely new DH class that doesn't use the tradtional theme.
3. Utilize the Diablo3 theme of Demon Hunters, and tack on the Illidan version.
None of those three things are a remote possibility, because each one either causes a ridiculous amount of overlap, or it would anger the current WoW player base.
If you actually sit back and think, you would realize how dumb your argument truly is.
Teriz in the name of the facts Demon Hunters are not casters , but they are Demonic Warriors Taunt . So there is a possibility that Blizzard may create Demonic Stances that can give the Demon Hunters different Demon Forms .
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What do you think about this Teriz :
My youtube Channel : Arberian021
WoW isn't all about new concepts or themes, it's about classic archetypes that fit the Holy Trinity gameplay style of Warcraft.
Demon Hunter Class Idea
Warlocks also have a taunt;
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=97827/provocation
Warlocks already have a charge (via Grimore of Sacrifice);
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=103129
Warlocks already have a melee ability;
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=114175
Warlocks already have an ability that increases damage to any target melee range;
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=116202/...f-the-elements
Warlocks have an ability that gives them the equivalent of Plate armor;
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=114129
So while in Dark Apothoesis, how are they not Demonic Warriors?
I've already responded to that post. Every argument made from that quote has been thoroughly debunked.What do you think about this Teriz :
My youtube Channel : Arberian021
WoW isn't all about new concepts or themes, it's about classic archetypes that fit the Holy Trinity gameplay style of Warcraft.
Demon Hunter Class Idea
Semantics. If you're fighting a target 10 yards away, how quickly do you think they'll enter melee range? 1 second?
Again, what makes a DA Warlock not a demonic warrior? It was designed to fight in melee range.Demon Hunters are Warriors and not pure Casters.
When you add the DA passive damage reduction, it becomes plate armor equivalent.And that ability doesnt give equivalent of plate. It gives equivalent of mail armor.
You've even said it yourself before that Death Knights embrace a Vampiric theme from Blood. Shadow Priests have had that same theme, with Vampiric Embrace and Vampiric Touch. On top of this, they spread plagues, which is what the Priest also had with Devouring Plague. No one considers this overlap because they don't work the same way for either class. The class identity of both Priests and DK's are not impacted whatsoever for having Disease-based spells or Vampiric spells.
If we are to assume there are different mechanics and a different looking form for the Demon Hunter, then it is plausible that they would not immediately overlap with Warlocks. The only thing needed to make this work is an explanation on how broad the 'Demon' spectrum really is, and why it is possible for multiple classes to share in the use of the magic and in the theme.
Is this an issue of any other classes being able to use Demonic magic at all? Would it be any more acceptable if Demon Hunters did not purely have 'Demon Form' but retain Fel-magic related abilities? I seriously don't buy 'Warlocks are already Demon themed' as a reason, given that no one class has dominion over any one type of theme or spell. Druid shapeshifting is shared with Shaman, Mage Elemental summoning and polymorph is shared with Shaman, Priest Holy healing is shared with Paladin, Rogue Stealth is shared with Druid. Even if you take the broader cycles of applying 'Magic', 'Nature' and 'Elemental' into consideration, you would still have overlap between classes.
It does not matter. Why does the Warlock possessing Metamorphosis impact a DH having a new ability alternately themed on Demon Form. This is what you're still avoiding. If the differences are as great as they are between Water Elemental and Fire/Earth Elemental summoning, then what is the problem? If Warlocks use 'Demonology' to metamorph, and Demon Hunters use 'Runic Transmutation', it would thematically be different, even if the end result is fel-based. You need to explain why any alternative not acceptable.The Warlock class possessing the core DH ability, several other DH abilities, Illidan-inspired armor, and the glyph of Demon Hunting is quite a lot of evidence. Blizzard pointing out DH overlap and saying they have no plans for a DH class is evidence. Hunters being in the game and having Track Demons is evidence.
It's all theory. Evolution is a theory. Relativity is a theory. You can't prove that there is no design space left when the Lead Designer who said those words left the statement in an ambiguous question form, and is no longer employed there at all. There is no proof of future possibilities in knowing that there 'currently is no plans for a Demon Hunter class'. What you have is a system that can never be proven with factual evidence, because you can't predict the future.All of that evidence points to Blizzard not wanting DHs to be a stand alone class. Why? Because Blizzard has no design space left to construct a DH class. Blizzard themselves removed the design space from DHs, and they started doing that at the beginning of WoW.
None of that is a theory. It's all facts.
To top it off, your patterns have been wrong in the past, and only after MoP did you adopt this new style of thinking, believing that the Tinker/Chemist is the only available spot left in the Class spectrum. I can prove to you that your patterns are wrong.
Again these are all based on subjectivity. These are not the only possibilities. On top of this, your criteria would work against both the Death Knight and Monk if you apply the same ruthless 'shoehorning' tactics.In short, the only way Blizzard could introduce a DH class is the following;
1. Ignore the overlap and shoehorn the class into the game.
2. Create a completely new DH class that doesn't use the tradtional theme.
3. Utilize the Diablo3 theme of Demon Hunters, and tack on the Illidan version.
One could argue Unholy is an extension of 'Shadow', and any use of 'Shadow' magic would overlap with Priests and Warlocks. Adding another Plate Tank/DPS is also overlap in mechanics. Undeath would be a new theme, but it doesn't matter since it's still Shadow-based magic, and Priests and Warlocks have that both.
I think it's dumb to present ultimatums on how Blizzard designs their gamesNone of those three things are a remote possibility, because each one either causes a ridiculous amount of overlap, or it would anger the current WoW player base.
If you actually sit back and think, you would realize how dumb your argument truly is.
hell no.
any person who wants to dps as a demon hunter gets told to shut up and suck it up. so hell no. it has to be its own class.
and that glyphs should have never made it out of beta but blizzard is too idiotic to remove it. yes lets keep the glyph that is causing a plague in the player base.
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this isnt a class for WoD chat. it never was
Anemo: traveler, Sucrose
Pyro: Yanfei, Amber, diluc, xiangling, thoma, Xinyan, Bennett
Geo: Noelle, Ningguang, Yun Jin, Gorou
Hydro: Barbara, Zingqiu, Ayato
Cyro: Shenhe, Kaeya, Chongyun, Diona, Ayaka, Rosaria
Electro: Fischl, Lisa, Miko, Kujou, Raiden, Razor
No, its not the same theme. The DK's version is based off of Undead. The Priest version is based off of mental or psionic vampirism. You can tell this by other abilities within the tree (Psionic Scream, Mental Blast, Dominate Mind, etc.). We can tell that the DK's version of Vampirism is more based around blood and undeath also by other abilities in the tree (Blood, Blood Worms, Sanguine Fortitude, Blood Boil, Vampiric Blood, etc.).
Additionally, that's also what separates the Priest version of Shadow from the Warlock version of Shadow.
I will admit that there's overlap via Devouring Plague, however that's one ability that was almost removed in MoP.
Again, you don't seem to understand my disagreement with you. NO ONE is saying that Blizzard couldn't make this happen if they wanted to make it happen. What I'm saying is that its not going to happen because Blizzard wants Demon Hunters and Warlocks to be the same thing, for WHATEVER reason. All of the evidence supports that.If we are to assume there are different mechanics and a different looking form for the Demon Hunter, then it is plausible that they would not immediately overlap with Warlocks. The only thing needed to make this work is an explanation on how broad the 'Demon' spectrum really is, and why it is possible for multiple classes to share in the use of the magic and in the theme.
Is this an issue of any other classes being able to use Demonic magic at all? Would it be any more acceptable if Demon Hunters did not purely have 'Demon Form' but retain Fel-magic related abilities? I seriously don't buy 'Warlocks are already Demon themed' as a reason, given that no one class has dominion over any one type of theme or spell. Druid shapeshifting is shared with Shaman, Mage Elemental summoning and polymorph is shared with Shaman, Priest Holy healing is shared with Paladin, Rogue Stealth is shared with Druid. Even if you take the broader cycles of applying 'Magic', 'Nature' and 'Elemental' into consideration, you would still have overlap between classes.
Except DHs wouldn't use Runic Transformation, because Blizzard wouldn't be stupid enough to give them Runic Transformation. If Blizzard wanted DHs in the game they would have never given Warlocks Metamorphosis. In fact, they probably wouldn't have had Warlocks in the game to begin with. Blizzard could have easily made Necromancers the "dark magic" class of the game, and made Demon Hunters the hero class. However that didn't happen, so we're in the situation we're in now.It does not matter. Why does the Warlock possessing Metamorphosis impact a DH having a new ability alternately themed on Demon Form. This is what you're still avoiding. If the differences are as great as they are between Water Elemental and Fire/Earth Elemental summoning, then what is the problem? If Warlocks use 'Demonology' to metamorph, and Demon Hunters use 'Runic Transmutation', it would thematically be different, even if the end result is fel-based. You need to explain why any alternative not acceptable.
This has been proven over and over again, and has been reinforced and backed up over and over again. You simply don't want to believe the evidence, which is fine btw, but that doesn't change that the facts are the facts. They aren't theories.It's all theory. Evolution is a theory. Relativity is a theory. You can't prove that there is no design space left when the Lead Designer who said those words left the statement in an ambiguous question form, and is no longer employed there at all. There is no proof of future possibilities in knowing that there 'currently is no plans for a Demon Hunter class'. What you have is a system that can never be proven with factual evidence, because you can't predict the future.
To top it off, your patterns have been wrong in the past, and only after MoP did you adopt this new style of thinking, believing that the Tinker/Chemist is the only available spot left in the Class spectrum. I can prove to you that your patterns are wrong.
Except no one is saying that, and that has never been the argument. The argument is that the DH's theme and abilities were purposely put into the Warlock and Rogue classes by Blizzard, thus making it highly unlikely to almost a certainty that we're not going to see a DH stand alone class. Hell, Blizzard's own statements and tweets back that up. We're not talking about a spec role, or an aspect of a theme, we're talking about an entire theme and the abilities that were attached to that theme almost a decade ago.Again these are all based on subjectivity. These are not the only possibilities. On top of this, your criteria would work against both the Death Knight and Monk if you apply the same ruthless 'shoehorning' tactics.
One could argue Unholy is an extension of 'Shadow', and any use of 'Shadow' magic would overlap with Priests and Warlocks. Adding another Plate Tank/DPS is also overlap in mechanics. Undeath would be a new theme, but it doesn't matter since it's still Shadow-based magic, and Priests and Warlocks have that both.
I think its even more dumb to ignore Blizzard's past and current design decisions in an argument about Blizzard's design decisions.I think it's dumb to present ultimatums on how Blizzard designs their games
Last edited by Teriz; 2014-02-09 at 05:54 PM.
Shamans don't literally turn into animals in the sense their body transforms, though. It's more of a spiritual experience, like when you hallucinate into a spirit-hawk in the Tauren starting area to travel to Bloodhoof. And why Enhance turns transparent/ghostly when it activates Spirit Walk. But projecting a spectral wolf as your astral form and/or calling upon a Wolf Spirit to empower you is cooler than just being a translucent bipedal cow.
That's what I mean — you can create superficially-similar Demon Forms that aren't actually Demon Forms, but either you're gutting something about Demon Hunters (and disappointing people) or gutting Demonology (and disappointing people). It can be done effectively, I just see it as unlikely given how Blizzard designs and especially how conservative they're becoming with 'disturbing' people as WoW ages.
If you look at DK for example, they kept everything core and identifiable about it (from WC3 forward, I mean) and just expanded. But DH has had all of its pieces dissected and redistributed, so while you can make a very cool class in Demon Hunter's image, you can't really make the Demon Hunter people are fond/nostalgic about.
Monks had the advantage of being mostly uncharted territory, and (amazingly) having none of their concepts distributed to other classes in the ~8 years before they were introduced.