Some Reasons Demon Hunters and Warlocks doesnt share the same theme

[Thimagryn]

The one exception? Metamorphsis. Why? Because for good or ill, its become a DH signature move. Something expected. You aren't really a DH unless you have meta. But even that is expendable.

The issue is with the rest oft he class designs pace. The identity. The overlap in its design space that exists between DHs and Warlocks, Rogues and so on. Can you break that overlap without destroying what it actually means to be a Demon hunter? Does HotS provide enough new lore or story to do that?

Regardless of gameplay, I am asking you if Heroes of the Storm's interpretation of Illidan would stand as a representation of a Demon Hunter that is different from Warlocks. I don't know if you have even bothered to look at or understand the Heroes class at this point, it's difficult to understand what you're saying without looking at the obvious - Heroes' Illidan has a Metamorphosis that effectively turns him into a demon, and is still very different from the Warlock's version of the same spell.

We're talking differences that are different in both theme AND mechanics, considering the Warlock version is a shadow demon shooting fireballs (ala War3) and the Heroes version is a 'Demonic' version of the basic character (who happens to be Illidan) that retains all his melee fighting prowess, and given a different (albeit similar) form.

Would not the design overlap be as similar and different as Shadow Form and Metamorphosis, between Holy Light and Healing, Cat/Bear Form and Spirit Wolf Form or any other like abilities sharing a similar theme? I've laid out the clear examples of how visually and thematically these two 'Demon Forms' can be different in the context of a Demon Hunter character.

[Traveler Voltin]

Um, all it would require is for Dark Apotheosis to become a spec, and make them crit immune. Dark Apotheosis Warlocks are pretty much tanks in the game right now.




You said redesign the Warlock class (again). That means you're going to dismantle the current class, and bring in a new design for the class. Nothing would piss off current Warlock players more.

it doesnt work like that. it show you have no idea wtf your talking about. it would be copy of demo only it would be for tanking. each spec is suppose to be a different flavor. demo would have to be remade if that were to happen.

your taking what i said out of context. i said to make DEMON HUNTER SPEC FOR WARLOCKS. demo mostly would need to be remade, destro and afflic would just need re-balancing.

there are currently 4 options for playable demon hunters.

1. remake demo and re-balance warlocks other specs. for a 4th spec
2. a class on its own but also having to remake only demo spec for warlocks
3. do demon hunter in a way that there is no over lap with rogues and locks but keeps the flavor.
4. leave them out forever

[Thimagryn]

Would you prefer this;



????

I would love that actually.

I also know a Player Character would never get to look like that. WoW's design is specific enough that we know our player characters would have to be confined to certain identities that fit a group-based action RPG. You'll never see that awesome mechanical contraption as a player feature.

I would love Death Knights to be able to fight while mounted, but it'll never happen either.

[Teriz]

it doesnt work like that. it show you have no idea wtf your talking about. it would be copy of demo only it would be for tanking. each spec is suppose to be a different flavor. demo would have to be remade if that were to happen.

Actually Dark Apotheosis isn't a copy of Demo. DA and Demo have different abilities. For example, DA has Sleep, Fury Ward, and Demonic Slash. Demo has Chaos Wave, Doom, Touch of Chaos, and a few other abilities. Only thing Blizzard needs to do is add a few more abilities to differentiate them some more (like they did with Feral Druids) and they're all set.

your taking what i said out of context. i said to make DEMON HUNTER SPEC FOR WARLOCKS. demo mostly would need to be remade, destro and afflic would just need re-balancing.

That would be dismantling the class, since Demonology has abilities within Destruction and Affliction. If you mess with Demo, you need to retool the entire class.

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I would love that actually.

I also know a Player Character would never get to look like that. WoW's design is specific enough that we know our player characters would have to be confined to certain identities that fit a group-based action RPG. You'll never see that awesome mechanical contraption as a player feature.

I would love Death Knights to be able to fight while mounted, but it'll never happen either.

Never say never. Its clear that Blizzard wants their classes to retain large aspects of the WC3 theme. Monks and DKs were extremely true to their WC3 counterparts. I would be shocked if Blizzard implemented a Tinker class and it wasn't just as true to its WC3 incarnation. Mechanical arms, pocket factories, and all.

[Traveler Voltin]

Actually Dark Apotheosis isn't a copy of Demo. DA and Demo have different abilities. For example, DA has Sleep, Fury Ward, and Demonic Slash. Demo has Chaos Wave, Doom, Touch of Chaos, and a few other abilities. Only thing Blizzard needs to do is add a few more abilities to differentiate them some more (like they did with Feral Druids) and they're all set.



That would be dismantling the class, since Demonology has abilities within Destruction and Affliction. If you mess with Demo, you need to retool the entire class.

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Never say never. Its clear that Blizzard wants their classes to retain large aspects of the WC3 theme. Monks and DKs were extremely true to their WC3 counterparts. I would be shocked if Blizzard implemented a Tinker class and it wasn't just as true to its WC3 incarnation. Mechanical arms, pocket factories, and all.

Demo focuses on meta for damage. DA is stupid glyph what allows the meta form to off tank. both specs cant have the focus on meta.

*facepalm* i said remake it so its not all about demo aka similar to the way it was predemo. it would not fuck over the other 2 specs.

[Thimagryn]

Never say never. Its clear that Blizzard wants their classes to retain large aspects of the WC3 theme. Monks and DKs were extremely true to their WC3 counterparts. I would be shocked if Blizzard implemented a Tinker class and it wasn't just as true to its WC3 incarnation. Mechanical arms, pocket factories, and all.

A Tinker class could very well be playable. It just wouldn't resemble their Warcraft 3 counterpart.

Those arms would only disrupt player identity and add nothing of worth to the actual mechanics or visual design of the class. It would conflict with their armor, their silhouette, and the worst part - be visually disruptive to the Raid. This is why we don't get many fights where we can fight while mounted, and they are designed as 'Vehicle boss fights'. I could see them adding a small backpack with a couple arms, but even then it wouldn't be much more than a nod to War3, just as Death Knights get a special class mount without actually having 'Fight while Mounted' mechanics.

[Teriz]

A Tinker class could very well be playable. It just wouldn't resemble their Warcraft 3 counterpart.

Those arms would only disrupt player identity and add nothing of worth to the actual mechanics or visual design of the class.

How would it disrupt player identity? It would be no different than Dark Apotheosis Wings, Druid Forms, or Shadow Form.

It would conflict with their armor, their silhouette, and the worst part - be visually disruptive to the Raid.

How would it be any more visually disruptive than this armor?

This is why we don't get many fights where we can fight while mounted, and they are designed as 'Vehicle boss fights'. I could see them adding a small backpack with a couple arms, but even then it wouldn't be much more than a nod to War3, just as Death Knights get a special class mount without actually having 'Fight while Mounted' mechanics.

You're talking about a character on horseback. I'm talking about a backpack with two arms sticking out the sides. That's a big difference.

[Talen]

Regardless of gameplay, I am asking you if Heroes of the Storm's interpretation of Illidan would stand as a representation of a Demon Hunter that is different from Warlocks.

The simple answer is no. HoTS showcases gameplay - but does nothing to address the actual overlap in design that causes the issues for the DH concept in WoW.

To make the existing DH class a viable prospect then the existing design space needs to be spearated from what has been given to Warlocks.

What has been given to Warlocks? Theme, concepts, looks, a great deal of lore, many abilities and so on. The entirety of the existing DH
design space has some degree of overlap in nearly every aspect of the class. Can you develop a DH class that has a different lore, different themes, concepts? A different look and set of abilities? And yet still keep it true to everything that exists?

No - you can't. Lorewise...both DH and Warlocks have ties to Sargeras, the Burning Legion, Demons. Can you build a DH without those elements of its background? Themewise, both DHs and Warlocks are those who embrace Demonic power for their own ends, good or bad. Can you build a DH without that? Looks - the DH has a very distinct look - but that look is now a part of the Warlock class. Would a DH be the same if it looked different? You can give the DH its own gameplay regardless, but would a DH be the same without Meta?

You can build a class with its own gameplay, and have it retain some vague semblence of a DHs looks. But embracing Demonic Power? That has to go-that warlocks territory, part of THEIR design space. The background links to the BL, Sargeras and demons? Has to go. Or be strongly downplayed to the point it's a side issue. You hate demons because an Imp sneezed and your family died from the resulting flu.

Can you take all that away, and still have a DH class? I don't think so. I don't see how its possible. But if you keep those elements in play? You have that overlap Blizzard talked about. And if that overlap is in play - well, Blizzard isn't going to tick off Warlocks. Not unless it has to.

And it doesn't have to. It doesn't have to bring in a DH class at all. That step also avoids all the issues Blizzard has with the class.

In short - it is not merely difficult to separate the design spaces of the DH and the Warlock classes; it is impossible without destroying what a DH is. Given that, Blizzard has three options - ignore that and add the DH anyway (not going to happen), don't add a DH class (very possible) or add the DH in a way which makes use of that design space issue (buffs the Warlock class and adds the DH class in a manner that doesn't impact on another classes design space)

I don't know if you have even bothered to look at or understand the Heroes class at this point, it's difficult to understand what you're saying without looking at the obvious - Heroes' Illidan has a Metamorphosis that effectively turns him into a demon, and is still very different from the Warlock's version of the same spell.

Case in point. It doesn't matter that its different in look or effect or lore. It simply matters that it turns him into a demon. You are arguing that Warlock players are going to be happy to see another class with their iconic ability when history shows players will being upset regardless of the changes Blizzards makes. That'd be justifiable if there was a gameplay reason...but where none exists?

Overall? HotS presents a DH that has differences in gameplay but doesn't address the actual design space overlap that causes the difficulties.

EJL

[Lovestar]

the 3 most demanded things since WoW began.
Death knight
Pandarens
demon hunter

Do you have some stats Blizzard released, or are you just whipping that out of your rear end because it sounds vaguely correct to you? :p

[mvaliz]

"...You DARE summon ME!?"

....BLAM!!!!



That's about all the reason you need.

[Teriz]

Demo focuses on meta for damage. DA is stupid glyph what allows the meta form to off tank. both specs cant have the focus on meta.

Why can't they? If they focus on meta in different ways, there shouldn't be a problem.

*facepalm* i said remake it so its not all about demo aka similar to the way it was predemo. it would not fuck over the other 2 specs.

Either way, don't you think that's quite a bit more work than simply turning the glyph into a spec? You're talking about reworking the Demo spec, AND creating an entirely new class.

[Thimagryn]

Why can't they? If they focus on meta in different ways, there shouldn't be a problem.



Either way, don't you think that's quite a bit more work than simply turning the glyph into a spec? You're talking about reworking the Demo spec, AND creating an entirely new class.

Which is exactly the amount of work they would have done for any expansion. You've pretty much explained that exact process that happened in MoP, where we saw the creation of a new class (Monk) and a revamp of Demo gameplay.

Prior to this, Demo Lock gameplay has gone through major changes almost every expansion. There's nothing to say that the current system is set in stone. The current Metamorphosis gameplay is a copy of GW2 'Death Shroud' Necromancer, while Demonology was always intended to be the 'Pet' spec

[Teriz]

Which is exactly the amount of work they would have done for any expansion. You've pretty much explained that exact process that happened in MoP, where we saw the creation of a new class (Monk) and a revamp of Demo gameplay.

What happened in MoP is not something that happens every expansion. That was a massive overhaul of the entire class, not just a single spec.

Prior to this, Demo Lock gameplay has gone through major changes almost every expansion. There's nothing to say that the current system is set in stone. The current Metamorphosis gameplay is a copy of GW2 'Death Shroud' Necromancer, while Demonology was always intended to be the 'Pet' spec

Regardless of whatever happens to Demo spec from this expansion forward, metamorphosis is going to be a central part of the spec. Blizzard is never going to take it away from the Warlock class.

[Yig]

And like Yig says, the Demon Hunter class is plagued with conflicting and ominous backstory that needs to be ironed out. The best way to approach that is by having it fully featured, potentially as a playable class/spec. Gameplay all comes naturally in the end, given Blizzard is able to expand the Class Identity into new territory, just as they did with allowing Priests to use Shadow Magic or Paladins to use Shields

Once upon a time only humans were paladins. Warcraft 3 says demon hunters have been running around for ten thousand years. How?
Illidari are new, as of Illidan fleeing to Outland. What is the Dark Embrace? Who do these 4 demon hunters serve or where did they come from?
I'll make a post specifically regarding the Demon Hunter lore contradiction, along with my idea over fixing the contradictions, such as WHY ILLIDAN HAD NO IDEA what metamorphosis was until he used the skull of Gul'dan while meanwhile Blizzard has ancient demon hunter ghosts using metamorphosis. Illidan acted as if he had no idea what would happen in WC3 regarding metamorphosis before he used that skull, he didn't act like he was playing catch up with 100 centuries of his fellow demon hunters or that he even knew other demon hunters existed or that there was a word or "class" known as a demon hunter, obviously lore and game play create a conflict here in need of resolution via clarified embellishment. It's obvious demon hunter units only got his ability because they use Illidan's full kit as a template. You're being obtuse or just not looking at this with any depth. What was the Herald of the Dark Embrace? Who were the demon hunters hunting demons in the last ten thousand years? Where did these guys come from?




Right now you can either transmog a rogue to be a partial wannabe demon hunter by a large percentage of what a demon hunter did, or you can dress up as best you can as a non night elf demon hunter warlock wannabe demon hunter to enjoy the 10% or so of demon hunter abilities the rogue lacks.

Or accept that the Demon Hunter story began and ended with Illidan and his Illidari, and place all traces of that lore into the Warlock class.

Which is exactly what Blizzard has been doing. I'd say its working so far. Warlocks get an interesting source for abilities, and we don't have to worry about the ludicrous amount of class overlap from a DH class, and we don't have to worry about yet another DW melee class being implemented.

It appears my hypocrisy knows no bounds. I'm your Huckle Berry. Why, you're no daisy at all.

Demon Hunters are dark, shadowy warriors who are shunned by the greater Night elf society. They made a pact, long ago, to fight against the forces of chaos using its own terrible powers against it. These mysterious warriors ritually blind themselves so that they develop 'spectral sight' that enables them to see demons and undead with greater clarity. They wield demonically charged warblades in battle and even call upon demonic energies to augment their formidable combat skills. Although they are counted as some of the mightiest warriors within the Night Elves' society, the Demon Hunters are always maligned and misunderstood for making their selfless pact with darkness.

Demon hunters were presented in WC3 as a long used element in the diversity of the Kaldorei military arsenal as special ops, next to the Warden.
They've been a staple for ten thousand years in history. You want to claim they began with Illidan and ended with the Illidari? When did they begin? How?

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new class will be only about lore, color and name of resource bar and names and icons of skills

And visually compelling and high impact custom animations and sounds. Look at a warrior in Diablo 3 and compare it to WOW. They are similar, but the theatrics of a D3 Barbarian make them feel like something ompletely different than a WOW warrior. Demon Hunters offer much in this area if you actually have an imagination willing to look beyond default melee swings and and bare bones equivocations. Novel movement mechanics, novel resource mechanics, novel combat animations, that's all you need and it's all you're ever going to get. Teriz plays a game where tinkers are only able to offer novel visual and audio FX because steampunk mechs are somehow more meaningful than novel melee combat animations and movement animations. One of many alternatives to exploring this class.

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Never say never. .

Irony of ironies.

[Teriz]

Right now you can either transmog a rogue to be a partial wannabe demon hunter by a large percentage of what a demon hunter did, or you can dress up as best you can as a non night elf demon hunter warlock wannabe demon hunter to enjoy the 10% or so of demon hunter abilities the rogue lacks.

More like 80% of known Demon Hunter abilities, via Well of Eternity, TBC DHs, and WC3 DHs.

Demon hunters were presented in WC3 as a long used element in the diversity of the Kaldorei military arsenal as special ops, next to the Warden.
They've been a staple for ten thousand years in history. You want to claim they began with Illidan and ended with the Illidari? When did they begin? How?

You're talking about their application in the RTS game for the player, not lore. In lore the only DH was Illidan, and he was imprisoned BY the Night Elves themselves, and when he escaped, the Night Elves sent the Warden to hunt him down and kill him. We continued this lore in TBC, when we hunted Illidan down and killed him ourselves (with the Warden standing by), and the majority of his Demon Hunter trainees. So there's no lore basis for either the Alliance, or the Horde to start recruiting vast numbers of Demon Hunters, and given their reclusive nature, its unlikely that would happen even if the Alliance or Horde were okay with it.

Of course, none of that lore really matters anyway, because Blizzard has made it crystal clear that their design goal is to fold the DH concept into the Warlock and Rogue class. The only people not getting that very clear design goal are fanboys who have divorced themselves from simple reason and logic.

[Traveler Voltin]

Do you have some stats Blizzard released, or are you just whipping that out of your rear end because it sounds vaguely correct to you? :p

that is from blizzard themselves. i think it was around wrath that they stated it.

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Which is exactly the amount of work they would have done for any expansion. You've pretty much explained that exact process that happened in MoP, where we saw the creation of a new class (Monk) and a revamp of Demo gameplay.

Prior to this, Demo Lock gameplay has gone through major changes almost every expansion. There's nothing to say that the current system is set in stone. The current Metamorphosis gameplay is a copy of GW2 'Death Shroud' Necromancer, while Demonology was always intended to be the 'Pet' spec

demonology was the warlocks version of beastmaster(hunters) which is why i originally like it. now i hate that spec with a passion and want to see it burn in holy fire.

[Heathy]

I don't see how a demon hunter is any different from a hunter/lock hybrid, all of the classes in wow are unique enough that you can't say 'this one is pretty much the same as this other one, or a combination of this one and that one'

demon hunters to me, have no unique identity it just seems like a melee hunter that can cast spells and go ranged if needed, if thats the case why play a hunter or a lock when this class would be the best of both?

both the DK and Monk are considerably unique to the other classes, you could say a DK is a bit like an arms warrior / anti paladin, and a monk is pretty much a spell casting rogue, but it doesn't really feel that way. i guess it really depends how its made, if it had 3 trees what would they be? lock/hunter/melee? spells/bows/melee? i don't quite feel sold on the idea even though they do seem cool i feel it would detract from hunters and locks, no doubt a lot of ppl who play those 2 would just reroll/switch main to the DH.

[Traveler Voltin]

More like 80% of known Demon Hunter abilities, via Well of Eternity, TBC DHs, and WC3 DHs.



You're talking about their application in the RTS game for the player, not lore. In lore the only DH was Illidan, and he was imprisoned BY the Night Elves themselves, and when he escaped, the Night Elves sent the Warden to hunt him down and kill him. We continued this lore in TBC, when we hunted Illidan down and killed him ourselves (with the Warden standing by), and the majority of his Demon Hunter trainees. So there's no lore basis for either the Alliance, or the Horde to start recruiting vast numbers of Demon Hunters, and given their reclusive nature, its unlikely that would happen even if the Alliance or Horde were okay with it.

Of course, none of that lore really matters anyway, because Blizzard has made it crystal clear that their design goal is to fold the DH concept into the Warlock and Rogue class. The only people not getting that very clear design goal are fanboys who have divorced themselves from simple reason and logic.

that number is bullshit and you know it. there are still alot of demons we havent seen that demon hunters could have gotten their powers from.

[delus]

So guys here im showing you some reasons why Warlocks and Demon Hunters doesnt Share the Same Theme
First you must read the Demon Hunter concept from WoWiki :
- First of all Demon Hunters are Shadowy Warriors. That indicates that this class uses Weapons to fight their Enemies. The Word "Shadowy" means that this class can also use Dark Magic. *Warlocks dont use Weapons to fight.*
-Seconly These warriors ritually blind themselves so that they develop 'spectral sight' that enables them to see demons and undead with greater clarity. Something which warlocks dont have.
-Demon hunters eschew heavy armor, valuing mobility and speed. They value mobility and speed so they can dodge or parry attacks in order to survive , but warlocks use mainly Dark Healing and Sacrifical Healing.
-The Demon Hunters use mainly Fire and Arcane Spells. Warlocks mainly use Fire and Shadow spell , and that means that the Demon Hunter is an unique Warrior which can use Arcane Energy.
-Demon hunters hone their speed and maneuverability to overcome their foes, which Warlocks dont. Warlocks use Dark Magic and Dark Shields , Sacrifical Pacts to overcome their foes.
-Demon Hunters carry large curved Warblades. Warlocks arent capable of equiping Warblades.
- The demon hunter can channel the chaos energy within them into a melee weapon to increase its powers. This is something unique which no class offers. No class can channel Chaos through weapons even the mighty Warlocks.
-Demon hunters have the ability to cover their bodies in a shell of flame , which Warlocks dont. The Immolate Aura Version of the Warlocks burns enemies within 8 or 10 yards by burning the ground , but the Immolate Version of the Demon Hunter covers their bodies in shells of flames damaging nearby enemies(1-3 yard range maximum) .
- Demonology Warlocks are the Masters of The Demons , but the Demon Hunters are the ones who destroy the Demons because this is the reason why they live. To Destroy The Legion.
Read Here : http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...3&postcount=11


Many players say that the Demon Hunters wont happen because most of their "iconic" spells are given away to the Warlocks . Spells like Metamorphosis to Warlocks and Evasion to Rogues. It remains only the Immolate Version of the Demon Hunter which is unique and Mana Burn which is not in use to be able to Create the Class. About the Metamorphosis case isnt required by the Demon Hunters because most of the Demon Hunters cant use Metamorphosis , Demon Hunters like Varedis, Feronas Sindweller , Telarius Voidstriker , Leothoras the Blind etc. The Metamorphosis of the Illidan was a rare case. Giving The Demon Hunters demonic Stances which causes Fel Runes to appear over the Demon Hunter's body or Dark Transparent Runes which cover their body would be the best choice.
Can Warlocks do this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB82pF_64mw ?!

Did u understand guys?!

At this point are you trying to convince the naysayers or are you trying to convince yourself?