Things that need to go

[Wrien]

- Burst of Speed: give it a CD, make it only clear slows only/ make it only clear roots only or increase energy cost to like 50
- Deterrence: reduce charges to 1
- Warrior dps in defensive stance is too strong / defensive stance is too strong
- Subtelfuge
- Hunter "all castable while moving"

and more.

[Rucati]

Burst of Speed definitely needs to be changed. I disagree with all the other suggestions though.

Hunters are absurdly squishy, they need 2 Deterrences, they're already easy to kill. Warriors would be useless without DStance, they're already easy kill targets in a lot of situations. Rogues die in 1 stun, without Subterfuge they'd do nothing. Hunters have always been quite mobile, not exactly this mobile, but still. They're too easy to LoS as it is, no reason to make it more so.

As for my suggestions:

- Fingers of Frost should only have one charge. Not quite sure what this would do in PvE to be honest, but in PvP Mage burst is entirely too crazy.
- Damage modifiers shouldn't stack. Having Prey on the Weak, Tricks of the Trade, Skull Banner, etc. all stacking means that classes can just do absurd burst.
- Warlock Gate shouldn't be usable in arenas. Probably the most broken thing in arenas currently. At least make it killable like Lightwell, just something that can counter it.
- Pets should be a tad bit more tanky. Lock pets actually just die in about 3 seconds, and Mage frost ele does as well. Kind of dumb to be honest.

Not really sure what else needs to be tweaked right now, the other big things are Nerve Strike which is getting nerfed, and Pummel/Interrupting Shout which is getting nerfed.

[Koala]

feral druid one shot

[apepi]

Deterrence is fine, if you nerf it blizzard would just give them something else instead.

[Terahertz]

Fingers of Frost should only have one charge. Not quite sure what this would do in PvE to be honest, but in PvP Mage burst is entirely too crazy.

This will make frost mages the worst class in the game and everyone will just reroll arcane and do 100k ice lances that way. Reason why frost mages actually do need ice lance procs is because they can never EVER cast versus hunters, shamans, warriors, dks and rogues. It's actually retarded.

Burst of speed certainly has to go or be nerfed. Put it on the global cooldown or whatever, give it a higher energy cost again or give it a CD. Playing a melee versus a rogue is actually the worst thing there is since you can only ever hit a rogue when he's CCed. As a mage it's also annoying as fuck.

Wyvern Sting has to go, or DR with scatter shot. Landing a trap should actually be either rewarding or not, but because of wyvern sting it doesn't even matter anymore unless you're facing a DPS monk or ret paladin (... LOL).

Subterfuge should be changed so that it doesn't give let you stay in stealth for 3 seconds after basically everything, but instead lets you use abilities that require stealth for 3 seconds when stealth breaks. A rogue specced in Subterfuge can even MOUNT UP while in stealth without actually breaking stealth.

Warrior uptime should be reduced. Warriors actually barely have to use heroic leap to actually get to someone anymore.

There's actually too many things to name. Enha shaman damage is retarded (100k-140k ele blasts randomly to the face?), ele sham damage is retarded, hunter damage is retarded, rogue damage is retarded, mage damage is retarded and DK damage is insanely retarded.

[Wrien]

A rogue specced in Subterfuge can even MOUNT UP while in stealth without actually breaking stealth.

lol

you mean all rogues:P

[Tyrannica]

I bet you play a lock or shadow priest.

totally disagree with all the rogues nerfes, cause talents like BoS are actually making a boring class fun, especially when it comes to bgs, making the rogue's uptime more effiecent. It can't be just only everything about hunters, you know?

In arenas, shadow step is always used.

Subterfuge is perfectly fine as is for a class that is all about stealth, poisons and daggers.

Just cause people do not understand the rogue class and can't handle it, its no way a reasion to nerf. some abilities appear strong, cause there are great strenght and weaknesses, think about subs dmg when shadow dance is down and dependence on rather long cool downs.

Rogues were recently nerfed by making mind-numbing poison - read - totally useless and nerve strike a joke(soon), when compared to other choices in the same talent tier.

I would like to see how many rogues are up there in rbgs and arenas........use arsenal my friend and compare before typing unwise things.


Also, holinka said, in 6.0 arenas, casters are allowed to cast again. I see no way to nerf all melees, cause only the warrior is off limits this season.

[Ryken]

Rogues were recently nerfe by making mind-numbing poison - read - totally useless

Along with every other class that could slow player's casting speed. It wasn't a nerf to rogues, it was a nerf to spell delays.

[Tyrannica]

feral druid one shot

why just feral druid? do you even play a druid? they all got one shots by stacking dmg cds, moonkin as well. even the healer spec lol

- - - Updated - - -

Along with every other class that could slow player's casting speed. It wasn't a nerf to rogues, it was a nerf to spell delays.

wrong here, it was a direct nerf to rogues, cause unlike other classes like dks necro strike, which causes antiheal stacks, mind-numbing poison has no other effect. So currently this poison does absolutely nothing as 10% is nothing at all to bother about. That poison can be removed now.

So, intended or not, its totally a rogue nerf.

[Rucati]

This will make frost mages the worst class in the game and everyone will just reroll arcane and do 100k ice lances that way. Reason why frost mages actually do need ice lance procs is because they can never EVER cast versus hunters, shamans, warriors, dks and rogues. It's actually retarded.

Subterfuge should be changed so that it doesn't give let you stay in stealth for 3 seconds after basically everything, but instead lets you use abilities that require stealth for 3 seconds when stealth breaks. A rogue specced in Subterfuge can even MOUNT UP while in stealth without actually breaking stealth.

Warrior uptime should be reduced. Warriors actually barely have to use heroic leap to actually get to someone anymore.

There's actually too many things to name. Enha shaman damage is retarded (100k-140k ele blasts randomly to the face?), ele sham damage is retarded, hunter damage is retarded, rogue damage is retarded, mage damage is retarded and DK damage is insanely retarded.

I don't think it would make anyone switch to Arcane, though I would be interested in if people went Arcane or Fire if Frost wasn't viable, Hansol makes Fire look so damn fun. And I didn't say remove Ice Lance procs, I simply said remove one of the two. This would do 2 things, it would force people to Deep kill targets instead of Deep Freezing the healer for CC (which could then be dispelled) and it would also put the kill target on stun DR, which would help with overall CC. Plus it's a nerf to their damage.

Subterfuge kind of has to exist because Rogues are the squishiest things on the planet. They literally die in a 5 second stun, without Subterfuge every team would just kill the Rogue instantly the second he opens.

No idea what Warriors you fight, but I can safely say Warriors are far more manageable than other classes. Their uptime is decent, but it's far from amazing and they're manageable imo. At least as a Mage, I generally don't have much of a problem with them in arenas.

Damage has to be retarded because healing is retarded. Same reason CC has to be retarded. Healing is so crazy right now nothing would ever die if classes did less damage. Although Enh does need to be changed so it doesn't one shot during Ascendance and do nothing outside of it.

The Wyvern/BoS things I agree with, so nothing more to add there.

I bet you play a lock or shadow priest.

totally disagree with all the rogues nerfes, cause talents like BoS are actually making a boring class fun, especially when it comes to bgs, making the rogue's uptime more effiecent. It can't be just only everything about hunters, you know?

In arenas, shadow step is always used.

Subterfuge is perfectly fine as is for a class that is all about stealth, poisons and daggers.

Just cause people do not understand the rogue class and can't handle it, its no way a reasion to nerf. some abilities appear strong, cause there are great strenght and weaknesses, think about subs dmg when shadow dance is down and dependence on rather long cool downs.

Rogues were recently nerfed by making mind-numbing poison - read - totally useless and nerve strike a joke(soon), when compared to other choices in the same talent tier.

I would like to see how many rogues are up there in rbgs and arenas........use arsenal my friend and compare before typing unwise things.


Also, holinka said, in 6.0 arenas, casters are allowed to cast again. I see no way to nerf all melees, cause only the warrior is off limits this season.

I bet you play Rogue. Rogues are crazy strong right now, BoS is absurdly annoying, the fact that it doesn't get used much in arena hardly makes the ability okay. People bitch about Bladestorm even though it's worse than Shockwave, so I guess this is kind of the same.

Mind-Numbing got nerfed because *every* cast speed reduction got nerfed for every class that has one. And Nerve Strike is retarded to begin with, making an entire team unable to kill a target for 6 seconds was terrible design to begin with.

And in arenas Rogues are quite strong right now. Wish people would realize representation doesn't mean strength. Rogues are one of the least played classes in the game, and they also don't have many strong comps, but that doesn't mean the class is weak.

[walkingtall]

The honor grind.

[Deleted]

I think a "things which should stay" list might be more pertinent. It would be a short list.

[Beefkow]

Agreed with the subtelfuge, its really annoying trying to get a rogue out of stealth (vanish for 3 seconds, plus another 3 seconds), and it makes the other 2 talents extremely inferior i mean seriously, the point of mop talents is to give us options, right?

Burst of speed needs to be nerfed to about 20-30 energy because of how retarded it is to spam that ability (makes rogues very op flag carriers) and kinda hard to chase down, but however i don't see rogues use this ability in arena (some of them do, just to troll me).

Warriors are fine where they are with defensive stance, its hard to generate rage unless you are lucky with your CS & MS crits, and warriors are still very squishy in D stance.

If you want to start nerfing hunters, start nerfing 100k durp shot (chimera shot) and start buffing other abilities to increase overall and less WTF JUST HAPPENED damage, other than that huntards need 2 deterrences for they are very squishy.

[Yimereh]

Since they have discussed it as being a higher priority to them, heirlooms in low level PvP. If people want to twink with looms then that's fine but the 10-14/15-19 bracket are by all accounts supposed to be entry level PvP. A new player joining Warsong Gulch/Arathi Basin on either a new account or a trial account has absolutely no chance against someone with heirlooms and enchants. I personally enjoy the lower level PvP brackets, due to its simplicity, but I pity every person who tries to enjoy a couple of games while leveling who just get 1 shot by rogues and 3 shot by virtually everything else. They have no opportunity to learn and will probably end up strongly disliking PvP for a long period of time.

This is probably the most damaging influence on PvP as a whole because a players first impression is important and feeling completely useless and inadequate is the perfect recipe for disgust and resentment. More people would try PvP if they felt like there was an easier way to integrate themselves into it. Max level is not the appropriate time to just start learning how to PvP there are far to many abilities to learn how to juggle and a new player probably has no concept of how to make macros and why they give you an advantage.

In short: Introduce more fairness in entry level(lvl 10-19) PvP by preventing excessive heirloom stacking and ludicrous enchants. This will give more people incentive to try PvP at the games more basic level.

[Tyrannica]

I don't think it would make anyone switch to Arcane, though I would be interested in if people went Arcane or Fire if Frost wasn't viable, Hansol makes Fire look so damn fun. And I didn't say remove Ice Lance procs, I simply said remove one of the two. This would do 2 things, it would force people to Deep kill targets instead of Deep Freezing the healer for CC (which could then be dispelled) and it would also put the kill target on stun DR, which would help with overall CC. Plus it's a nerf to their damage.

Subterfuge kind of has to exist because Rogues are the squishiest things on the planet. They literally die in a 5 second stun, without Subterfuge every team would just kill the Rogue instantly the second he opens.

No idea what Warriors you fight, but I can safely say Warriors are far more manageable than other classes. Their uptime is decent, but it's far from amazing and they're manageable imo. At least as a Mage, I generally don't have much of a problem with them in arenas.

Damage has to be retarded because healing is retarded. Same reason CC has to be retarded. Healing is so crazy right now nothing would ever die if classes did less damage. Although Enh does need to be changed so it doesn't one shot during Ascendance and do nothing outside of it.

The Wyvern/BoS things I agree with, so nothing more to add there.



I bet you play Rogue. Rogues are crazy strong right now, BoS is absurdly annoying, the fact that it doesn't get used much in arena hardly makes the ability okay. People bitch about Bladestorm even though it's worse than Shockwave, so I guess this is kind of the same.

Mind-Numbing got nerfed because *every* cast speed reduction got nerfed for every class that has one. And Nerve Strike is retarded to begin with, making an entire team unable to kill a target for 6 seconds was terrible design to begin with.

And in arenas Rogues are quite strong right now. Wish people would realize representation doesn't mean strength. Rogues are one of the least played classes in the game, and they also don't have many strong comps, but that doesn't mean the class is weak.

I play currently in arenas and rbgs unholy dk, feral/balance/heal druid(no longer feral since current season) and you allready guessed it a rogue, previously played mage and lock in arenas.

I can assure you the rogue is far from beeing op, he is just strong in terms of cc, peel and antifocus mechanics. Thats simply the design of a rogue and intended, its intended that he is hard to catch and does a lot of cc, but can't zerg for shit and has overall shit dmg, while some nice burst in shadowdance.


Played rogues since mid of BC and in bc and cata he was ways stronger as in mop......we had seasions where rogues really did big damage that make others cry while having all the utility a rogue is known for. Mop is probably his weakest incarnation. However some abilities appear strong as they improve the QoL and feel of playing a rogue somewhat, and this is for instance current version of BoS. But, as i said it won't get much used in arenas. So why care about it? It does not make you die instantly or loss of control.

Nerve strike is a very good and useful ability to tone down the op burst that plagued arenas in all of this expansion, to nerf it is not right at all, and its not as dominating as you probably think the alternatives are very strong too, just they don't tone down burst for everyone.

Just count the number of rogues in arenas and rbgs. They hit for shit and got long cds. compare it to a warrior.....oh i guess you play one anyways.

besides before even considering rogue nerfs, the devs should rather fix the broken stealth. Cause its rather unfun if it breaks on purpose without any reasion, while standing far away from a possible hostile target.

And its the class that got played least. Such changes won't make the pop count any higher.

- - - Updated - - -

Since they have discussed it as being a higher priority to them, heirlooms in low level PvP. If people want to twink with looms then that's fine but the 10-14/15-19 bracket are by all accounts supposed to be entry level PvP. A new player joining Warsong Gulch/Arathi Basin on either a new account or a trial account has absolutely no chance against someone with heirlooms and enchants. I personally enjoy the lower level PvP brackets, due to its simplicity, but I pity every person who tries to enjoy a couple of games while leveling who just get 1 shot by rogues and 3 shot by virtually everything else. They have no opportunity to learn and will probably end up strongly disliking PvP for a long period of time.

This is probably the most damaging influence on PvP as a whole because a players first impression is important and feeling completely useless and inadequate is the perfect recipe for disgust and resentment. More people would try PvP if they felt like there was an easier way to integrate themselves into it. Max level is not the appropriate time to just start learning how to PvP there are far to many abilities to learn how to juggle and a new player probably has no concept of how to make macros and why they give you an advantage.

In short: Introduce more fairness in entry level(lvl 10-19) PvP by preventing excessive heirloom stacking and ludicrous enchants. This will give more people incentive to try PvP at the games more basic level.

did you really pvp in those brackets in current mop?

I did just 1 day ago. i used hunter, paladin, priest and rogue.

Rogue is the worst of them cause he doesn't 1 shot twinks only undergeared people and has no access to his core abilities not a stun even, even a paladin can stun and can bubble rogue can do nothing but deal some dmg if he catches up.

Priests are op as fuck, not worth to talk about them.

Hunters are the better rogues, more core abilities and higher kill count, cause they do it all from range. Also in the those brackets better not be under ones level, while a low level improves your item stats somewhat, it makes a rogue to bee seen all the time, loosing his most important advantage.

I think you never expierenced the time when shadow step was availible for subletly and ambush does crit more often through talents, that was the time where one can say rogues were really on par with hunters. this time is long over in the lowest brackets.

I only get from this thread that people posting here never bothered to play a rogue in mop and that their vision on the class is totally skewed, for starters when mop launched rogues were nerfed to the grond on all fields.

Especially for you i urge you to go to the talent calculator and look the abilities of sub or mutilate rogue and count their cc/def cds in the 10-14, 15-19 brackets. And do the same on the other classes i mentioned.

Also, i would love to know while playing 15-19 bgs and 20-24 for a whole day why i always see teams consisting enterily of hunters and priests and just a few rogues.

with a hunter its easy to farm 70-80 kills each bg, if there is no twink guild on the other side of the map, i can't possibly do this with a rogue, i can only appear a bit op in a duel like fight where i got the first hit and know my shit. And this is no longer sub ambush but rather mutialte spam with correct gear and enchants, but the rogue is very slow in those brackets even with minor speed enchant on the feets. If this is a problem for you, what is lvl60 twinking where rogues got access to burst of speed, all their stuns and vanish? Muste be really absurdly op then.

rogues are always powerful in duel like fights that can happen in random bgs often enough, too.

In the lower bracket its really only mutilate and enchants/gear and only their dmg as they do not even have a kick or stun and no escape mechanism as well like sprint and vanish.

Later on its their cc and reset abilities that makes them powerful in duels.

But look at the whole picture and what really counts, consider the kill count of hunters in bgs and dmg done. If i deal a lot of dmg i risk my life everytime if there is more than 1 twink around me. Hunters don't have that risk they do it from range and kite easily most melees, cause of lack of gap closers.

Oh, and low bg brackets are not the entry level for you first pvp expierence, it lost that flavor long ago, you only see full geared twinks nowdays and i am not talking about xp stop bgs. Its not hard to gear up, i did, without any gold on a new server, i made some coins in the ah quickly and bougth some important but cheap enchants. All the gear is availible as blue quest rewards or the dungeons. Heirloom is fine, but not required and doesn't scale as well in bgs as green/blue ilvl gear.(you notice it more when using cata/mop greens in later brackets)

[Baracuda]

I think hunters need some penalty for moving and I believe Holinka said they're looking at changing subterfuge and dematerialize.

[Rucati]

I play currently in arenas and rbgs unholy dk, feral/balance/heal druid(no longer feral since current season) and you allready guessed it a rogue, previously played mage and lock in arenas.

I can assure you the rogue is far from beeing op, he is just strong in terms of cc, peel and antifocus mechanics. Thats simply the design of a rogue and intended, its intended that he is hard to catch and does a lot of cc, but can't zerg for shit and has overall shit dmg, while some nice burst in shadowdance.


Played rogues since mid of BC and in bc and cata he was ways stronger as in mop......we had seasions where rogues really did big damage that make others cry while having all the utility a rogue is known for. Mop is probably his weakest incarnation. However some abilities appear strong as they improve the QoL and feel of playing a rogue somewhat, and this is for instance current version of BoS. But, as i said it won't get much used in arenas. So why care about it? It does not make you die instantly or loss of control.

Nerve strike is a very good and useful ability to tone down the op burst that plagued arenas in all of this expansion, to nerf it is not right at all, and its not as dominating as you probably think the alternatives are very strong too, just they don't tone down burst for everyone.

Just count the number of rogues in arenas and rbgs. They hit for shit and got long cds. compare it to a warrior.....oh i guess you play one anyways.

besides before even considering rogue nerfs, the devs should rather fix the broken stealth. Cause its rather unfun if it breaks on purpose without any reasion, while standing far away from a possible hostile target.

And its the class that got played least. Such changes won't make the pop count any higher.

Actually I play a Holy Priest, but nice guess I suppose.

Anyway, Rogues burst for an absurd amount with Shadow Dance/Blades, and with Prey on the Weak their partner does idiotic damage as well. You can try and pretend Rogues are balanced, but they really aren't. As a HPriest, I'd rather fight a Warrior over a Rogue any day of the week. I'd actually rather fight almost any class over a Rogue, because they're so difficult to deal with.

Count the number of Rogues in arenas? Well, okay. In the top 1000 arenas there are 76 Rogues, compared to only 36 DKs and 72 Warlocks. There are also more Rogues than almost any DPS hybrid, but not counting those since a lot of people heal on those classes, although there are only 40 Monks of any spec in the top 1000. So, by your logic, DKs, Warlocks and Monks all need buffs. So do Ele/Enh Shamans, Ret Paladins, Shadow Priests, and both DPS Druid specs. So, basically everything needs to be buffed using your arena representation numbers.

Rogues are more than fine, and without a doubt need to be toned down. Not much more to say about it. Considering there's only a couple of good Rogue comps, and there's still that many Rogues, I'd say that kind of speaks for itself.

[Wrien]

Subterfuge kind of has to exist because Rogues are the squishiest things on the planet. They literally die in a 5 second stun, without Subterfuge every team would just kill the Rogue instantly the second he opens.

LoL

Try play a frost DK, you die instantly all the time with no defensive CD to survive anything.
Blood presence reduces dps by 50% at least
Icebound fortitude 20%... lol
AMS works vs magic, but breaks fast

[Tyrannica]

Count the number of Rogues in arenas? Well, okay. In the top 1000 arenas there are 76 Rogues, compared to only 36 DKs and 72 Warlocks. There are also more Rogues than almost any DPS hybrid, but not counting those since a lot of people heal on those classes, although there are only 40 Monks of any spec in the top 1000. So, by your logic, DKs, Warlocks and Monks all need buffs. So do Ele/Enh Shamans, Ret Paladins, Shadow Priests, and both DPS Druid specs. So, basically everything needs to be buffed using your arena representation numbers.

Rogues are more than fine, and without a doubt need to be toned down. Not much more to say about it. Considering there's only a couple of good Rogue comps, and there's still that many Rogues, I'd say that kind of speaks for itself.

You are right, that these classes all need buffs.

But dunno what you mean with your top 1000, doesn say anything without a source.

Lets discuss the most popular and important bracket 3vs3

2,6k+ rating so this is rather the top, and i do not see the rogue strictly dominating everyone? both arms warrior and frost mage are above him, warrior by a mile, and hunter is merely on par with the rogue:

http://www.arenamate.net/?region=&re...600&ladder=3v3

At 2,2k+ rating, where a lot more people play, there are quite fewer rogues as hunters:

http://www.arenamate.net/?region=&re...200&ladder=3v3

Not exactly bad for a rogue as far as results goes, the dk is almost non-existant in this bracket as a class, but still can kill healers like a squishy holy priest without any effort. So, just cause you got trouble vs rogues does not mean beeing rogue is godmode for everyone, cause my dk has no problems with rogues and also kills healers all too easily. STILL i can't see the dk anywhere ranked in the 3vs3 bracket.

Meaning, just something counters your play, does not mean its overpowered.

Do you know what i think is overpowered regarding priests from a melee point of view? Void tendrils + spectral guise gives melees quite the headache. I really prefere to focus on all the other healers just cause of this. I could start threads about how retardly overpowered and annoying these abilities are with their almost non-existend cd lenght added, feels so spammy with all the cc the priest allready got, i think there is hardly a moment where a cd isn't ready for you compare these with the long duration cds of the rogue, would love to have 30 sec on half my def cds.

If you got such an insane problems with rogues your team should focus him until all his def cds are out and he is a free kill actually. Most teams i face, do not touch my rogue, cause he is impossible to tunnel with all cds availible. Hard and swift switches or taking away these cds and he is dead. Warriors and dks should excel more than enough for this, even mages. ever watched top players duelling rogue vs mage in an arena environment?

People shouldn't complain about classes they do not play and understand and that are not dominating the arenas as much as other classes or rather dd specs do. It simply makes no sense, like BoS is just a quality of life talent a rogue uses in pve and bgs to move around quickly in stealth, no harm to anyone here.

- - - Updated - - -

LoL

Try play a frost DK, you die instantly all the time with no defensive CD to survive anything.
Blood presence reduces dps by 50% at least
Icebound fortitude 20%... lol
AMS works vs magic, but breaks fast

I played 3(!) frost dks in arenas in cata and mop and after some time switched to unholy again when it was made playable after a while in mop, guess what i prefere to play, i use 3 unholy dks since last seasion. Frost has no place in an arena environment. You are a glass cannon without a punch. every melee evades/parrys your obliterate hard hitting stlye, you get tunneld from the very beginning till the end of the arena fight if the team on the other side is remotely good. In low ratings especially 2s, you can still dominate if you know how to play defensively, i need to play almost like a ret paladin. Need to take conversion and run in cylces around a pillar to get my hp up after a succesful burst. I do not have the luxury of vanish(except on my rogue of course) or ice block, nor def stance with 25% insane dmg mitgation and passive 2nd wind heals costing no resources at all, actually we have to manage our resources unlike rage saturated warriors. Nor can a dk walk away with lightning speed or simply jump off screen.

I present you the ultimate tunnel spec, designed for a true fan.....with masochistic ambitions.

and its still true what the dude said, if you hard switch on a rogue and he got no peels or lightning reflexes/super def cds he is instantly killed. i give him a big stack of necros and additional dmg with dots and he is in big trouble allready and i play just a humble represented spec.

But you won't quite achieve that with a frost dk who just gets rooted/disarmed/silenced until the end of days.

and from a duel point of view with arena rules, the frost dk dies instantly in shadow dance.

But he dies instantly against a feral burst too, with no ramp up time.

He dies of course against a ww monk without any hope to catch him or prevent the insane dmg/selfheal.

He dies against a frost mage who know his stuff easily.

Ams was nerfed to death it breaks in mop after some little burst, so even an ele shaman with a little proc luck instagips a frost dk, yes in arenas without any insane buffs and dmg modifiers.

do not ever use this spec in arena rating games, you can tell the designers of this spec did not intend the frost dk to play in arenas and prolly never touched this spec after cata season 10, even a ret is FAR better, at least the ret got high mobilty and some offheals. Of course he is weak as fuck and unpopular, too atm and suffers in more than just 1 bracket, but i consider him over a frost dk in 3s any day.

[Verain]

- Burst of Speed: give it a CD, make it only clear slows only/ make it only clear roots only or increase energy cost to like 50
- Deterrence: reduce charges to 1
- Warrior dps in defensive stance is too strong / defensive stance is too strong
- Subtelfuge
- Hunter "all castable while moving"

and more.

Lot of rogue hate for a sub 5% repped class.

Burst is fine.
Subterfuge is fine.

Hunter thing is their class design.



These ideas are all pretty bad. Even the dstance one is probably not a dstance issue.