What to do with a masochist guild?

[Lavathing]

Eliminating or reducing the chance that something will go wrong seems like a plausible argument to me. Unlike you apparently, not all of us are fortunate enough with play with raiders that can execute everything flawlessly on the first pull of a heroic boss, so reducing the amount of things people need to be worried about when learning a new fight is enough of an incentive to me.

voidspark is correct in everything he/she said. Even if you have the bosses hit 85% before the wolves are dead, it is not the end of the world. Prison does 100% of your maximum health. So, as long as the healer has a personal CD up, even if they take 1 tick before the prison expires, they should be fine. Most classes have at least a 20% damage reduction, if not more (many have 40% DR). Ticks of the mists will not bring the person from 100% to below 60% in one tick, which means they will survive. Just flawed logic.

Finally, I'd like to say that some people's inclination to think that doing lower DPS and killing things single target/slower somehow deems them to be "safer" is very strange. Because in reality, it is usually to the contrary. This is literally what was mentioned above about LFR raider mentality. Where they think what they say about a boss is factually, and if people don't listen to them then they are idiots. When in fact, people aren't listening to them because their logic/strategy is flawed but they cannot come to that realization.

[nightfalls]

voidspark is correct in everything he/she said. Even if you have the bosses hit 85% before the wolves are dead, it is not the end of the world. Prison does 100% of your maximum health. So, as long as the healer has a personal CD up, even if they take 1 tick before the prison expires, they should be fine. Most classes have at least a 20% damage reduction, if not more (many have 40% DR). Ticks of the mists will not bring the person from 100% to below 60% in one tick, which means they will survive. Just flawed logic.

Exactly. And that requires far from "flawless play." It requires you to push a single button (read: Divine Shield, Pain Suppression, Life Cocoon) within a ~4-6 second window. Or a druid pushing up to 3 buttons (or since it seems you are a mage and in their group, if 3 buttons is too difficult they could just push one: Ice Block).

Or to put it more delicately, requires you to simply "not be a derp" and actually "know how to play."

[Khorm]

Basically Lavathing summed it up in Post #41 (if you are going to dismiss that post, don't, and read it again) but here goes:

1. If you're asking your raid which is 6/14H to continue doing Klaxxi and Garrosh normal like it's a progression boss, you're not going to find a right guild ever. At this point most likely your raid simply outgears (significantly) the bosses and will have no issue killing them while people can just relax and let loose a little. Typically when our alt raid (similar progress) gets to the last few bosses on normal after grueling heroic tries, we just screw around even if it means occasionally killing bosses in the wrong order or doing Garrosh wrong.

He said they spend 2hrs+ wiping on Garrosh

2. Green Thok is always preferable to Red Thok. Seriously, always. You obviously haven't played a healer at all, so I don't see why leaders should listen to your opinion on the matter. If you told my raid to push Red Thok on purpose, I'd stop listening to anything you said as well.

Red Thok is easier if his HP is low because you can just push him into a kite phase without the poison.

3. If your raid can't handle the early tombs and iron prisons, you don't deserve an H-Dark Shamans kill. You cannot and will not keep the Shamans above 95% when the wolves are dead. The reason that mechanic (heroic) triggers at 95% instead of like 60% is because you are supposed to deal with it more or less instantly.

They probably need to work on their positioning more, tombs should be stacks on top of each other not everywhere as he said.

That was my initial thought but as others (Lavathing did a good job) pointed out and after reading his "bullet points" more closely rather than just skimming them you realize he really isn't that intelligent of a raider at all, and definitely not as much as he thinks he is.

The irony...

I'd say 'The irony' as well after reading your posts but it doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Lavathing]

Red Thok is easier if his HP is low because you can just push him into a kite phase without the poison.

Or you could just stack up and do the green phase, standing still, DPSing. I guess either can work (on normal), but for him to get upset saying that doing green phase is "wrong" and his raid team is stupid for doing green phase is ludicrous. Not to mention that they better get used to green phase for heroic, but thats probably largely irrelevant to this thread.

[Deleted]

[LIST][*]Pushing Garrosh phase transitions when there are loads of adds up and Ignoring Desecrated Weapons.

The rest is all really terrible but ignoring desecrated weapons is a perfectly viable tactic and done quite a lot.

[Sakamae]

Or you could just stack up and do the green phase, standing still, DPSing. I guess either can work (on normal), but for him to get upset saying that doing green phase is "wrong" and his raid team is stupid for doing green phase is ludicrous. Not to mention that they better get used to green phase for heroic, but thats probably largely irrelevant to this thread.

I pugged with a 2/14HM 10 man guild recently on my resto druid who had previously only run flex. We never made it out of phase 1 on Thok, 96 stacks of acceleration and he died. After the nerfs normal mode is a joke. If you are worried about strategies for farm content, you're wasting your time.

Lavathing and Voidspark have said pretty much everything else. I think you need to have a serious discussion with the GM/RL in your guild and find out what they really think. You might be surprised at what they have to say.

[nightfalls]

I pugged with a 2/14HM 10 man guild recently on my resto druid who had previously only run flex. We never made it out of phase 1 on Thok, 96 stacks of acceleration and he died. After the nerfs normal mode is a joke. If you are worried about strategies for farm content, you're wasting your time.

Lavathing and Voidspark have said pretty much everything else. I think you need to have a serious discussion with the GM/RL in your guild and find out what they really think. You might be surprised at what they have to say.

I pugged with a guild that was doing Thok as progression (yes, normal, as progression) and they are a casual group that raids ~4 hours a week and that's it, far from "hardcore elite tryhards" or whatever.

We destroyed Thok after doing one quick kite phase (with most people focusing jailer) then keeping him in Green (not Red, not Blue) phase until he died. If your raid cannot handle Green Phase on normal (let alone hard), your raid has problems (yes, that would be reason to leave your guild).

[Lavathing]

If your raid cannot handle Green Phase on normal (let alone hard), your raid has problems (yes, that would be reason to leave your guild).

I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm suspecting that the OP is in an actually bad raid team that struggles with easy bosses, and he blames the strategies (which happen to be correct, mostly) rather than the poor play of the raid team. This has given him a skewed view of what is "right" and "wrong", thinking his raid's problem is all strategy. So, there might be a real reason to leave, I never doubted that. I was just trying to point out that the things you might have been scapegoating as the issues are really, in fact, not problems.

[nightfalls]

So, there might be a real reason to leave, I never doubted that. I was just trying to point out that the things you might have been scapegoating as the issues are really, in fact, not problems.

I kind of flip-flopped, but I think I'd agree with your assessment. His raid regardless of his own strategies' validity has obvious issues with both execution and leadership.

I don't always agree with my raid leaders when it comes to boss strategy (and I do a LOT of research/work myself) but one of the most basic facts is that you need to trust their judgement in the end whether they are doing your plan or not. If the raid is just failing whether it's on strategy or execution end that trust just won't be there.

So they either need a (long?) talk, or he needs to leave.

[trystero]

I can't be the only one who thinks it's ridiculous to expect a raid team to manage the fire phase on Thok when it cannot be trusted to place tombs on Shamans.

I'm suspecting that the OP is in an actually bad raid team that struggles with easy bosses, and he blames the strategies (which happen to be correct, mostly) rather than the poor play of the raid team. This has given him a skewed view of what is "right" and "wrong", thinking his raid's problem is all strategy

This right here, nail meet head. It's like when I used to play a lot of online poker, back when I could do such a thing, and short term results would bias people's views on strategy. Like they'd play some garbage hands before the flop, connect, win a big pot, and suddenly it's "any two will do," and they're calling so far out of position they may as well be fourteen blocks away.

Just because something negative happens does not mean it was the incorrect choice...

[xytech]

Masochists one tank everything that's possible. Masochists simplify things for convenience. Masochists stacks up and refuses to move (Garrosh). Your guild don't sound all that masochist, just plain stupid.

[Renegader]

The Fire phase gives the whole raid a damage buff, combined with hero/bloodlust you can kill Thok much faster and avoid further phases. Fire patches are a joke and there's no need to slather us in dots that the healers struggle to dispel properly.

If you think saving bloodlust till the end is better on thok, you have no clue what you are talking about.

[Lavathing]

Masochists one tank everything that's possible. Masochists simplify things for convenience. Masochists stacks up and refuses to move (Garrosh).

Everything you said there is perfectly fine to do. One tanking when possible usually means more DPS. Simplifying things so it is easier to kill a boss is good. And the damage from Garrosh's weapons, even on heroic, is perfectly easy to deal with by stacking up in it and AoE'ing it down with adds.

[Mormolyce]

I wouldn't push the situation, sounds like they already view you as pushy. If it really bothers you the only thing to do is find another guild. Polite way to do it is wait until end of progression and give them advance warning so they can recruit. And of course be nice about it.

People ignore some tactics and otherwise make the fights harder just to pad the dps meters.

Haha, oh man that takes me back to my HM raiding days. Progression guilds are magnets for meter padders! To be fair some of the worst meter maids were among our best players.

[Deleted]

My guild is 8/14 HC and the majority of my players are somewhat like you describe. If they do that properly then it'll actually pay off though. These are the types of people who need to wipe 15 times on a boss in the most ridiculous ways possible, before they can do it flawlessly. Hell, before we replaced a few players we needed like 60 wipes on Immerseus because the group insisted on 2 man healing it with a very weird phase 1 tactic.

[xytech]

Everything you said there is perfectly fine to do. One tanking when possible usually means more DPS. Simplifying things so it is easier to kill a boss is good. And the damage from Garrosh's weapons, even on heroic, is perfectly easy to deal with by stacking up in it and AoE'ing it down with adds.

My point exactly, that's what I consider the masochist way though. This guild doesn't sound masochist, just plain stupid.