About the Old Gods

[Depakote]

Are they really dead? Something that's said during Brann's encounter in the Halls of Stone makes me think that they may not really be.. Think it was something about the Titans having to imprison them instead of killing them because it'd kill all of the other living things on Azeroth. That being said, if they aren't dead where are they and what are they up to? This has confused me for a while now...

[TJkroz]

That's a tough one. The Titan Ra fought and killed an Old God, who upon it's death breathed out the 7 Sha and Ra "fell". The Titans then decided that they couldn't kill the OGs, as it would cause irreparable damage to Azeroth and it's denizens. The Titan's believed that heroes would rise up among the races of Azeroth, and they would be able to destroy/kill/slay the OGs.

I think the Titan's viewed their method of OG removal as using a Bazooka, and the future heroes would be more like a scalpel. IMO, Cthun & Yogg-Saron are dead. Y'Shaarj is obviously dead. N'zoth is the only other one we know the name to, and it's not yet been destroyed. Supposedly, there are others.

[Golden Yak]

Difficult to say.

C'Thun's carcass was left rotting in Ahn'Qiraj, and still contained enough dark power to mutate Cho'Gall from a regular two-headed ogre to this monstrosity, as well as whisper insanity to anyone who got too close to it.

Y'Shaarj was said to have truly died, but his heart still oozed black blood and corrupted everything aound it, and when the heart was revived in the life-giving waters of Pandaria his consciousness appeared to revive somewhat as well, whispering to people and so forth. In the end though Y'Shaarj appears to have disappeared entirely after Garrosh drew all of his heart's power into himself and then was defeated.

There's references to them being outside the cycle of life and death, and destroying their body just seems to slow them down until they can rebuild it or find another one.

If that's the case, then who knows what C'Thun and Yogg-Saron are up to at the moment.

[Aquamonkey]

Yet the power of a god is limited. Otherwise, of course, the Old Gods could not have been imprisoned. Nonetheless, an imprisoned, sleeping, or otherwise enfeebled god may still have an effect--conscious or not--on the god's surroundings. The development of the qiraji is said to be the result of just such an incidental influence.

Not every Old God is still alive and plotting. The Titans actually did kill a lot, so this particular Old God is dead. And is safely dead. Not all of the Old Gods were entombed. (Source)

[Mormolyce]

They're really dead because nobody wants to keep fighting Cthun over and over.

Difficult to say.

C'Thun's carcass was left rotting in Ahn'Qiraj, and still contained enough dark power to mutate Cho'Gall from a regular two-headed ogre to this monstrosity, as well as whisper insanity to anyone who got too close to it.

Y'Shaarj was said to have truly died, but his heart still oozed black blood and corrupted everything aound it, and when the heart was revived in the life-giving waters of Pandaria his consciousness appeared to revive somewhat as well, whispering to people and so forth. In the end though Y'Shaarj appears to have disappeared entirely after Garrosh drew all of his heart's power into himself and then was defeated.

They appear to leave behind a taint of some kind, even Cho-Gall's resurrected Cthun appears at best semi-sentient.

There's references to them being outside the cycle of life and death, and destroying their body just seems to slow them down until they can rebuild it or find another one.

That outside the cycle thing is from the Puzzle Box, which is a Lovecraft reference from Archaeology. Ie, it's a joke. Ie, it's not canon. Any more than Rascal Bot is canon.

[Tylaeus]

They're really dead because nobody wants to keep fighting Cthun over and over.



They appear to leave behind a taint of some kind, even Cho-Gall's resurrected Cthun appears at best semi-sentient.



That outside the cycle thing is from the Puzzle Box, which is a Lovecraft reference from Archaeology. Ie, it's a joke. Ie, it's not canon. Any more than Rascal Bot is canon.

How do you know it's a joke? The entire subject of the Old Gods is a reference to Lovecraft. They aren't a joke.

[Golden Yak]

They appear to leave behind a taint of some kind, even Cho-Gall's resurrected Cthun appears at best semi-sentient.

This is true - makes you wonder if C'Thun and Yogg-Saron are in the same boat as Y'Shaarj was when he was 'killed' by the Titans. If so, could they be revived the way his remains were? Have they released Sha-like blights upon their surrounding regions as well? If not, are they simply regenerating to come back again the way C'Thun seemed to do after his battle with the Titans?

How do you know it's a joke? The entire subject of the Old Gods is a reference to Lovecraft. They aren't a joke.

Their servants the faceless ones also say this - 'They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle.'

And as Gynn says, the entire concept of the Old Gods and most things related to them is very heavily influence by Lovecraft and his mythos. There's no reason to think any element of them we've seen so far it some joke that isn't serious - the puzzle-box is a nerubian artifact devoted to one of the Old Gods. It's almost certain that its comments are rooted in canon lore and concepts.

[Zaedria]

This is true - makes you wonder if C'Thun and Yogg-Saron are in the same boat as Y'Shaarj was when he was 'killed' by the Titans. If so, could they be revived the way his remains were? Have they released Sha-like blights upon their surrounding regions as well? If not, are they simply regenerating to come back again the way C'Thun seemed to do after his battle with the Titans?



Their servants the faceless ones also say this - 'They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle.'

Yup. Specific examples:

Herald Volazj (Old Kingdom): "They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle."
Commander Ulthok (Throne of Tides): "They do not die."
Mindbender Ghur'sha (Throne of Tides): "They are outside the cycle..."

And I think this is the best understanding we're going to get of the mortality status of the Old Gods. And hell, this is Warcraft - even plain old mortals have been brought back to life by various means of resurrection or, er, denial that we ever actually defeated them properly in the first place (I'm lookin' at you, Kael'thas). If they can come back, an Old God sure as hell can. The real question is, would Blizzard do it? And I think, eventually, they might. But for now, C'thun and Yogg have had their time in the story.

[Deleted]

blizz are stupid when it comes to old gods. im sure they said that y'shaarj was fully dead. yet he empowers garrosh and whispers to me still

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

blizz are stupid when it comes to old gods. im sure they said that y'shaarj was fully dead. yet he empowers garrosh and whispers to me still

Terenas Menethil II is fully dead yet he brings the whole raid back and talks to us. Things can be fully dead while still doing something active.

[Deleted]

Terenas Menethil II is fully dead yet he brings the whole raid back and talks to us. Things can be fully dead while still doing something active.

doesn't mean fully dead then does it

[Zaedria]

blizz are stupid when it comes to old gods. im sure they said that y'shaarj was fully dead. yet he empowers garrosh and whispers to me still

I think the catch is that their dead/alive status doesn't quite work the same way as it does for other, mortal things. For a mortal, you'd reasonably expect "dead" to mean "expired, gone, deceased, having popped their clogs and kicked the proverbial bucket, probably without awareness, no longer having any influence in the world." As best we can pin it down, for an Old God, it may mean something more along the lines of "lacking a working physical body," i.e. possibly as close to "dead" as you can get one as long as you don't go dumping their core body parts into famously invigorating, intensely magical water or something irresponsible like that.

The Old Gods are hardly that noteworthy, as Warcraft goes, when it comes to coming back from death.

[Mormolyce]

How do you know it's a joke? The entire subject of the Old Gods is a reference to Lovecraft. They aren't a joke.

It's a novelty item from Archaeology. And it's also a reference to Hellraiser. Many of the quotes are direct or near-direct Lovecraft quotes.

I think it's safe to say that it's a joke. Is my Mini Thor pet canonical?

Even if we take the Puzzle Box to be a serious lore item, it's a device of the Old Gods, it has no reason to tell us the truth and every reason to lie.

Their servants the faceless ones also say this - 'They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle.'

And as Gynn says, the entire concept of the Old Gods and most things related to them is very heavily influence by Lovecraft and his mythos. There's no reason to think any element of them we've seen so far it some joke that isn't serious - the puzzle-box is a nerubian artifact devoted to one of the Old Gods. It's almost certain that its comments are rooted in canon lore and concepts.

Those are also Lovecraft references.

There's some sheep in Warcraft 3 that say "Baa Ram Ewe" when you click on them, are they canon?

Yup. Specific examples:

Herald Volazj (Old Kingdom): "They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle."
Commander Ulthok (Throne of Tides): "They do not die."
Mindbender Ghur'sha (Throne of Tides): "They are outside the cycle..."

And I think this is the best understanding we're going to get of the mortality status of the Old Gods. And hell, this is Warcraft - even plain old mortals have been brought back to life by various means of resurrection or, er, denial that we ever actually defeated them properly in the first place (I'm lookin' at you, Kael'thas). If they can come back, an Old God sure as hell can. The real question is, would Blizzard do it? And I think, eventually, they might. But for now, C'thun and Yogg have had their time in the story.

They're all just repeating the same reference, however even if we take it seriously, again these are servants of the Old Gods and therefore are likely lying. They say spooky things to make their masters sound all-powerful. They may even believe it, for all we know they're mindless thralls.

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Terenas Menethil II is fully dead yet he brings the whole raid back and talks to us. Things can be fully dead while still doing something active.

His soul was inside Frostmourne. Which apparently allows you to battle res a raid.

[Deleted]

I think the catch is that their dead/alive status doesn't quite work the same way as it does for other, mortal things. For a mortal, you'd reasonably expect "dead" to mean "expired, gone, deceased, having popped their clogs and kicked the proverbial bucket, probably without awareness, no longer having any influence in the world." As best we can pin it down, for an Old God, it may mean something more along the lines of "lacking a working physical body," i.e. possibly as close to "dead" as you can get one as long as you don't go dumping their core body parts into famously invigorating, intensely magical water or something irresponsible like that.

The Old Gods are hardly that noteworthy, as Warcraft goes, when it comes to coming back from death.

yeah i understand that with other old gods such as C'thun not being fully killed, only imprisoned then we 'put it back to sleep' or whatever.

but with y'shaarj i thought they said the titans fully destroyed it then realised its a bad thing to do etc etc. yet he still has influence in the world, seems silly

[Tylaeus]

It's a novelty item from Archaeology. And it's also a reference to Hellraiser. Many of the quotes are direct or near-direct Lovecraft quotes.

I think it's safe to say that it's a joke. Is my Mini Thor pet canonical?

Even if we take the Puzzle Box to be a serious lore item, it's a device of the Old Gods, it has no reason to tell us the truth and every reason to lie.



Those are also Lovecraft references.

There's some sheep in Warcraft 3 that say "Baa Ram Ewe" when you click on them, are they canon?



They're all just repeating the same reference, however even if we take it seriously, again these are servants of the Old Gods and therefore are likely lying. They say spooky things to make their masters sound all-powerful. They may even believe it, for all we know they're mindless thralls.

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His soul was inside Frostmourne. Which apparently allows you to battle res a raid.

The thing about the Old Gods is their ominous nature in the Warcraft storytelling. Doesn't seem too far-fetched that Blizzard would throw canon lore about them in something subtle like an archaeology item. I'm willing to accept the possibility that these objects and NPCs will exaggerate and lie in any of their statements, it'd be interesting to find out that the old gods are really not as powerful as they are told to be, but to dismiss them as a joke simply because it isn't in a quest, book, or, ugh, Warcraft 3, is more than a little ignorant.

[Golden Yak]

Those are also Lovecraft references.

At this point, it goes beyond a simple jokey reference and has become an element of Warcraft lore inspired by Lovecraft's work. So it's a huge stretch to say that anything mentioned about them in-game can't be canon.

[Zaedria]

They're all just repeating the same reference, however even if we take it seriously, again these are servants of the Old Gods and therefore are likely lying. They say spooky things to make their masters sound all-powerful. They may even believe it, for all we know they're mindless thralls.

I would take it seriously. Your point about them potentially lying or being mistaken is a fair one, though.

Ultimately I don't think it's something Blizzard will ever really clarify - like with most other characters, they'll find an excuse to bring them back or involve bits of them in the story again if they want to, and leave it all mysterious and ambiguous or something in the meanwhile.

yeah i understand that with other old gods such as C'thun not being fully killed, only imprisoned then we 'put it back to sleep' or whatever.

but with y'shaarj i thought they said the titans fully destroyed it then realised its a bad thing to do etc etc. yet he still has influence in the world, seems silly

Yeah, it is kind of a misleading thing to say that Y'shaarj was definitely very dead. Though even the deadest things in the lore can sometimes be revived. What is dead? A state of being? States can change. It was very dead (whatever that means for an Old God), then very exceptional circumstances happened. How the hell do Old God consciousnesses work anyway? Is what we see/hear in SoO a fragment of one? Something new created by the melding of the Vale's waters and the nature/residual identity of the Heart?

Blizzard can be kind of vague and contradictory like that sometimes. Partly I think they're pretty clumsy at telling stories, and partly I think they want to keep their options open for the future.

[Deleted]

Death means nothing in World of Warcraft. It only means that you have one less proxy which you can use to influence the world of the living.

[Lolretadin]

The thing about the Old Gods is their ominous nature in the Warcraft storytelling. Doesn't seem too far-fetched that Blizzard would throw canon lore about them in something subtle like an archaeology item. I'm willing to accept the possibility that these objects and NPCs will exaggerate and lie in any of their statements, it'd be interesting to find out that the old gods are really not as powerful as they are told to be, but to dismiss them as a joke simply because it isn't in a quest, book, or, ugh, Warcraft 3, is more than a little ignorant.

Well their armies are said to be as numerous as the stars in the sky, or something, yet the Burning Legion seems to not only not be afraid of them, but immune to their influence all together.

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yeah i understand that with other old gods such as C'thun not being fully killed, only imprisoned then we 'put it back to sleep' or whatever.

but with y'shaarj i thought they said the titans fully destroyed it then realised its a bad thing to do etc etc. yet he still has influence in the world, seems silly

Cho'gall is stated to have been attempting to resurrect C'thun, but he is not dead in the sense of Y'Sharrj.

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Yup. Specific examples:

Herald Volazj (Old Kingdom): "They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle."
Commander Ulthok (Throne of Tides): "They do not die."
Mindbender Ghur'sha (Throne of Tides): "They are outside the cycle..."

And I think this is the best understanding we're going to get of the mortality status of the Old Gods. And hell, this is Warcraft - even plain old mortals have been brought back to life by various means of resurrection or, er, denial that we ever actually defeated them properly in the first place (I'm lookin' at you, Kael'thas). If they can come back, an Old God sure as hell can. The real question is, would Blizzard do it? And I think, eventually, they might. But for now, C'thun and Yogg have had their time in the story.

I assume that they just mean that they are outside the cycle as we know it. C'thun and Yogg-saron are most certainly NOT dead, just in a death-like state, whereas Y'Shaarj is dead.

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blizz are stupid when it comes to old gods. im sure they said that y'shaarj was fully dead. yet he empowers garrosh and whispers to me still

It's less Y'Shaarj and more the Sha energy that had empowered him. Keep in mind that although the Sha are nowhere near as powerful, they still whisper to the lesser races to attempt to bring them down.

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Yeah, it is kind of a misleading thing to say that Y'shaarj was definitely very dead. Though even the deadest things in the lore can sometimes be revived. What is dead? A state of being? States can change. It was very dead (whatever that means for an Old God), then very exceptional circumstances happened. How the hell do Old God consciousnesses work anyway? Is what we see/hear in SoO a fragment of one? Something new created by the melding of the Vale's waters and the nature/residual identity of the Heart?

Blizzard can be kind of vague and contradictory like that sometimes. Partly I think they're pretty clumsy at telling stories, and partly I think they want to keep their options open for the future.

Blizzard stated outright that Y'Shaarj would not be coming back.

[Nerrf]

I assume that they just mean that they are outside the cycle as we know it. C'thun and Yogg-saron are most certainly NOT dead, just in a death-like state, whereas Y'Shaarj is dead.

Pretty much what i thought.

Goddamn love your sig btw