HWF Totem enough to warrant a spec change?

[Fountaiin]

I'm sure there's a sticky somewhere, but I'm not too familiar with the lock forums since it's an alt, so I figured I would just ask.

I have a 580 totem, a 574 bindings, and a 561 black blood. I play aff on a few fights, but i'm destro reforged. I'd like to play it more but my friend tells me that aff without 13-15k haste is a poor decision.

1) Should I use 561 BB and 580 totem as aff for most fights?
2) Is having a 580 totem/574 bindings enough to warrant staying destro on fights like H Malkorok if I'm reforged for destro. (I assume not).

I'm 571 ilvl if that matters.

Thanks.

[Xandy]

I would Sim different trinket combos to be sure, but IIRC at 570+ PBoI will be the best choice and then it's a matter of swapping out KTT or BBoY as your second trinket. I have 574 PBoI, 574 KTT and 561 BBoY and I Sim'd about 8k higher using PBoI + BBoY over PBoI + KTT, however yours is Warforged so the difference will be less. Also for certain fights where you're going to be focusing more on mechanics, movement, etc it may be difficult to capture the 10 stack BBoY and in those situations I use KTT.

Also I wouldn't necessarily let gear determine which spec you want to use, but rather your coherence with each spec, especially considering Destro is a viable spec for virtually every fight in Siege.

[Brusalk]

Also I wouldn't necessarily let gear determine which spec you want to use, but rather your coherence with each spec, especially considering Destro is a viable spec for virtually every fight in Siege.

Only fight I'd say Affliction is better for than Destro is Protectors. All the spread damage is equally important on protectors compared to other fights where Destros high, focused damage is better.

[Fountaiin]

I thought Afflic was much better on a single target fight like Jug where you don't start off with enough embers to burst well?

[Deleted]

I thought Afflic was much better on a single target fight like Jug where you don't start off with enough embers to burst well?

Depends on the length of the fight. On farm Affliction pulls ahead with good RNG and a short kill time. It basically rides the burst wave all the way home.

[Baconeggcheese]

Only fight I'd say Affliction is better for than Destro is Protectors. All the spread damage is equally important on protectors compared to other fights where Destros high, focused damage is better.

^^

Also what liquid said, aff only looks "better" on short fights because of burst not having time to settle down but it won't sustain as well without a lot of lucky procs. Destros always a safe bet on basically every fight for the dmg you should care about that's helping you kill bosses.

[Xandy]

Only fight I'd say Affliction is better for than Destro is Protectors. All the spread damage is equally important on protectors compared to other fights where Destros high, focused damage is better.

Yea sorry that's what I meant when I said virtually every fight, and superior would have been a better word than viable. Nazgrim also seems to favour Affliction. I mean there are other fights where Affy seems to do more DPS than Destro (looking at raidbots) but as has been said, those are skewed by farm kills. I think it comes down to your ability with a given spec, I personally prefer Affliction so I only go Destruction if theres a lot of AE in a fight.

[Brusalk]

Yea sorry that's what I meant when I said virtually every fight, and superior would have been a better word than viable. Nazgrim also seems to favour Affliction. I mean there are other fights where Affy seems to do more DPS than Destro (looking at raidbots) but as has been said, those are skewed by farm kills. I think it comes down to your ability with a given spec, I personally prefer Affliction so I only go Destruction if theres a lot of AE in a fight.

Looking at 10H Nazgrim logs, there's 2 Aff parses higher than a lot of Destro parses (incl. my own), but a lot of them below top 10 Destro parses. I wouldn't say aff is better for Nazgrim either.

[yoloswagginz]

a lot of these destro "parses" are just kids stacking adds on the totem and aoeing or being the only person in the raid attacking faithfulls. Its not real dmg. Aff is ahead on nearly every fight besides galakras, immerseus and the last two fights. Spoils is debatable. The only time destro will pass aff on other fights is because of aoe cheesing.
As far as trinkets simcr won't react to procs how ppl do. it won't SB+SS at 10 stacks of BB so it'l underrate it by quite a bit. As destro use the HWF totem. For aff i'd say the BB is better because with a 10 second window on totem you'll typically refresh ur dots once which is the same as with BB. And the 1 refresh will give u much more in at max stacks. You really should go for the 13737 haste point for aff because it scales directly with mastery.

[Fountaiin]

a lot of these destro "parses" are just kids stacking adds on the totem and aoeing or being the only person in the raid attacking faithfulls. Its not real dmg. Aff is ahead on nearly every fight besides galakras, immerseus and the last two fights. Spoils is debatable. The only time destro will pass aff on other fights is because of aoe cheesing.
As far as trinkets simcr won't react to procs how ppl do. it won't SB+SS at 10 stacks of BB so it'l underrate it by quite a bit. As destro use the HWF totem. For aff i'd say the BB is better because with a 10 second window on totem you'll typically refresh ur dots once which is the same as with BB. And the 1 refresh will give u much more in at max stacks. You really should go for the 13737 haste point for aff because it scales directly with mastery.

Yeah I planned to use BB. I just wasn't sure if 580 totem or 574 amp would be better for aff, and I don't trust sims for any spec when it comes to trinkets. Also thanks pal

[Zharradan]

a lot of these destro "parses" are just kids stacking adds on the totem and aoeing or being the only person in the raid attacking faithfulls. Its not real dmg. Aff is ahead on nearly every fight besides galakras, immerseus and the last two fights. Spoils is debatable. The only time destro will pass aff on other fights is because of aoe cheesing.
As far as trinkets simcr won't react to procs how ppl do. it won't SB+SS at 10 stacks of BB so it'l underrate it by quite a bit. As destro use the HWF totem. For aff i'd say the BB is better because with a 10 second window on totem you'll typically refresh ur dots once which is the same as with BB. And the 1 refresh will give u much more in at max stacks. You really should go for the 13737 haste point for aff because it scales directly with mastery.

debatable. I feel like destro is better on klaxxi (just progressed on this boss, and did 3k dps more than our aff lock which has 12 ilvl more than me neither of us died) and alot of other bosses, depends on your kill time, On my kill of malkorok i saved myself from dying with ember tap at least 3 times. galakras is not even a contest destro is way superior if you aren't killing adds alone. you have infinite embers and shadowburn spamm almost.

logs aren't reliable at all because guilds are killing bosses with trash, and making speed killings, destro is better for progression, affliction is better for farm, but now I ask you: what matters the most? progression or farm?

[Xandy]

Looking at 10H Nazgrim logs, there's 2 Aff parses higher than a lot of Destro parses (incl. my own), but a lot of them below top 10 Destro parses. I wouldn't say aff is better for Nazgrim either.

Does that include the crazy AE damage Destro gets from the initial adds? When they are up we have a lower geared Destro lock who comes close to beating me and when our RL pulls all the adds out of the room so noone can pad meters, he doesn't come close to me at all. Makes me a happy Affy lock

[yoloswagginz]

destro is miles better on klaxxi in terms of dps, but the meters won't accurately reflect that since keeping raid of fire down is a dps increase. I'm not debating that I did say in the post that for the last two bosses destro is better. Warlocks in general have tons of survivability. Ember tap hardly gets used because of all the other abilities we have to keep us alive that aren't a dps loss. Sac pact is up for almost everything or SL is a flat 20% dmg reduction. As far as logs being reliable you just need to check to make sure 40% of their dmg isn't into adds.

[Tramzh]

debatable. I feel like destro is better on klaxxi....

If you read his post he said that destro is stronger on the last 2 fights. High destro parses involves a lot of aoe and shadowburn cheesing, aff is a lot more pure boss damage, both on nazgrim (you can keep dots up during defensive stance and you don't have to stop dpsing without damaging the raid, fury wise) and malkorok unless your guild lacks add damage. Affliction is way more consistent on malkorok because forcing you to move won't hurt you as much. Just 2 examples that are commonly debated...

logs aren't reliable at all because guilds are killing bosses with trash, and making speed killings, destro is better for progression, affliction is better for farm, but now I ask you: what matters the most? progression or farm?

This highly depends on the gear people have, this deep into the patches even people at 8-10 hc can have 575+ ilvl which is more than enough to make affliction viable.

A lot of fights are really close between the 2 and often depend on what role you are given. I find destro more stable and safe on siegecrafter (10 man) for example due to ember tap even though I know affliction will give me more consistent dps if I get unlucky with lasers etc.

PS. sorry if this went a bit too OT, I'd still stick to whatever spec is more suitable for each fight, your trinkets shouldn't affect you too much.

[Brusalk]

High destro parses involves a lot of aoe and shadowburn cheesing

This is somewhat off-topic but would you mind explaining what you mean by AoE/Shadowburn 'cheesing'? I see the term used a lot with regards to Destruction but I'm not sure I fully understand how people are intending to use the term cheesing.

[yoloswagginz]

This is somewhat off-topic but would you mind explaining what you mean by AoE/Shadowburn 'cheesing'? I see the term used a lot with regards to Destruction but I'm not sure I fully understand how people are intending to use the term cheesing.

Shadowburn cheesing doesn't exist, but come on don't pretend like u don't know what aoe cheesing is. You can look at the top destro parses on any fight that has aoe and over 40% of their dps is into the adds. Aff doesn't have the same ability to cheese. worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2gtk8ubhdj0hfdig/details/13/?s=6640&e=6992 38% of this guys dmg is into faithfuls. worldoflogs.com/reports/r55u1dh6dii0ksjm/sum/damageDone/?s=2097&e=2658#Gluecks this guy uses the totem cheese strat and just aoes the whole fight. worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-19z9hvlvvl0ydpu3/details/190/?s=5975&e=6439 this guy had pretty much no1 in his raid touch adds besides himself and 1 or 2 others that they decided would cheese before hand.

[Xandy]

Aff doesn't have the same ability to cheese. worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2gtk8ubhdj0hfdig/details/13/?s=6640&e=6992 38% of this guys dmg is into faithfuls.

That's what I'm talking about!

[Werst]

I have a HWF KTT, heroic bindings, and 561 BB and even against the HWF KTT the BB comes out 3K-5K ahead on sims at 578ilvl (destro, 576 aff). To see a real gain you need to refresh at 10x stacks otherwise KTT will win by sheer ilvl. Of course both are RPPM so RNGesus may love/hate you. Generally for aff's love of haste/secondary stats BB's haste/xxx comes out ahead of the 18% chance to do 33% of HWF KTT.

I have 2x heroic tier chests I swap between my aff and destro sets (coining for a HWF staff too many times lol) so its not hard for me to be at ideal itemization for both specs with each having a slightly different gearset. IF you can react at 10x stacks then roll with BB, if you miss it then you are better off with KTT. Both destro and aff have very high cheese potential but meaningful damage is similar. Gear, guild strat, and skill (luck!?) with each spec factors into which is "best". I find destro to be the most consistent with aff having higher variance depending on when and how often BB procs.

Also I'd probably be more inclined to run destro as alliance/worgen and aff for troll/horde due to how powerful the racial stacking can be. Again YMMV, take with a grain of salt, etc... Honestly as a lock don't bother trying to "rank" at this point since proper play will never really compete with the cheesed (if not outright forged parses). Just do your job well and don't make mistakes...that is doing more for your raid than any dopey ranking IMO.

TLDR = run bindings/BB as aff and bindings/KTT as destro (sac) in most cases. Hope this helps...

[Baconeggcheese]

Aff doesn't have the same ability to cheese.

Aff can absolutely soul swap everything and pad super hard on fights. For instance a person in my guild for funsies spent paragons soulswapping literally everything and when a single set of your opener dots does 8 mil+ dmg you've got a hell of a lot of cheesing to be had soulswapping 8 mil for 2 gcds over and over and over for the first minute of the fight.

[Werst]

Oh, in regards to cheesing here are kind of where some might draw the line.

Paragons = bunched bosses + parsites = RoF and more chaosbolts, havoc for ember builders NOT ember spenders. Havoc with ember spenders = cheese as is any aoe.
Garrosh = depends on strat, knockback, etc but generally if adds die to cleave a single F&B immo + ROF and then dumpstering CB/sburns into the boss.
Siegecrafter = F&B aoe on mines, havoc errant mines (outside your F&B radius), and really just push mines > boss > ??? damage.
Thok = glyph'd havoc on boss, shadowburn x6 on bats, F&B aoe on bats (w' UR) is about the best you can do. Havoc or SS the jailer /yawn.
Spoils = CB/sburn the important sparks...F&B on big packs when there is NOT an exploding spark up, otherwise it doesn't matter. SS fest if aff.
Malk = RoF when there are adds around the boss is an option when moving for more embers. Aff needs glyph of LT but should focus boss only.
Nazgrim = aff rolls best possible dots on all the adds + boss (focus macro = your friend), destro pretty much pushes boss with havoc on adds.
Shaman = dest does some F&B or just a RoF on blobs (gear/strat dependent), aff has big opener but pretty much focuses boss once they split.
IJ = no padding here...just run what you like. AD for parse but movement RNG can screw you...KJC for consistency.
Gala = dest due to shadowburn/aoe but aff is viable if your job is towers. No real padding per se just aoe/F&B and havoc/sburn cleave yer balls off.
Sha = dest doesn't really pad but does aoe effectively as well as burst/havoc big adds. Aff SS's big adds and seeds the smaller ones.
Nourshen = lots of soulswap for aff to shine but if they evaporate destro tends to burst best...still once its farm most things die before server says you can sburn.
Protectors = is there anything but aff for this? Biggest procs, AD, SS to everything with an HP bar, haunt the kill/push target.
Immerseus = destro has the capacity to F&B/aoe adds like nuts and burst blobs...aff is more boss dps centric.

Run what your guild needs the most and what you play best. Its close enough that your specific skill/circumstances will make more of a difference than any canned answer we can give. Just analyze what the issue is preventing a kill and use the toolkit best suited for it.