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  1. #1

    Question Warrior Tanks seem to be lacking enough AoE tools?

    Since the latest patch (cross server heirlooms) i have been leveling two characters, a warrior tank and a paladin tank.

    Currently both characters are nearing Cataclysm levels, but i must say i find the Warrior tank's AoE capabilities to be very poor when compared to the Paladin tank's AoE.

    Tank warrior has:
    - Thunderclap (6 sec cooldown)
    - Shockwave (20-40 sec cooldown)

    Cleave and Revenge only affect 2 (or 3) targets, so i really don't count them as a true AoE spell.

    Tank paladin has:
    - Hammer of the Righteous (4 second cooldown, lowered by haste)
    - Consecration (9 second cooldown, lowered by haste)
    - Holy Wrath (8 second cooldown, lowered by haste)
    - Seal of Righteousness (permanent AoE on every melee attack)
    - (lvl90) Holy Prism (20 second cooldown)

    Paladins also have the Avenger Shield that has a chance of resetting on every dodge/parry, but since it hits only 3 targets i did not include it in the list.

    Not only do paladin tanks have 5 true AoE spells compared to warrior tanks only having 2 true AoE spells, but paladin cooldowns are even lessened by haste from items and buff effects.

    I do know that warriors have an aoe taunt, but it is on a pretty damn long cooldown... not to mention that certain dungeons have areas where waves of mobs constantly stream in to attack - and my warrior AoE spells are just on a too long cooldown for me to be able to reliably get threat on these new attackers.

    On my paladin i ALWAYS have at least 1 aoe spell ready - it simply can not happen that none of my aoe spells are ready... since by the time i cast the last AoE spell, my first 2-3 AoE spells are already prepared again!

    Don't get me wrong, i still like my warrior tank - but when i am running through lvl15 to lvl85 dungeons as a tank, as a warrior tank i am always lacking more AoE attacks.

    On my paladin tank, the dungeons that gave me trouble with AoE on my warrior are simply not a problem on my Paladin - i even have Hand of Protection and Hand of Sanctuary (two of each if talented) that can help counter lack of threat, but such a problem simply never happens on my paladin... but my warrior is drowning in AoE threat issues if mobs attack when my thunder clap is not ready...

    It often happens that a patrol comes or a party member pulls another mob pack while my Thunderclap/Shockwave are on cooldown - and i am pretty much forced to watch my healer (or dps) just get beaten to death by the newly arrived mobs, simply because i have no AoE buttons to press that would help.

    I am kinda hoping that warrior tanks in WoD either get a new low cooldown AoE attack (like druid swipe or paladin hammer of righteous), or perhaps a glyph that makes Thunderclap have 3 (or 4) seconds of cooldown.

    ADDITION:


    The amount of AoE threat warriors deal is FINE.


    However i see a problem in warriors dealing AoE threat only ONCE every 6 seconds, assuming the longer cooldown Banner/Shockwave/Leap is not ready.

    Paladins do AoE attacks every ~1 second, essentially being a beacon of constantly pulsing AoE threat - no chance new monsters can go for the healer.

    Warriors do 1 TClap AoE every 6 seconds, and are unable to do AoE threat if their Thunder Clap is on cooldown - so mobs can go rampant during those ~6 seconds until your next TClap is ready.
    Last edited by Aleksej89; 2014-02-10 at 11:35 AM.

  2. #2
    Mechagnome Fog's Avatar
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    Deep Wounds applied by Thunder Clap trumphs Hammer of the Righteous, Consecration and Holy Wrath in raw threat generation in my opinion. I agree that the 6 second CD on Thunder Clap can seem too long, but once you hit 85 you also have Heroic Leap.
    Charge-cleave, charge-TC, leap. That's alot of aoe tools to gain control.
    Mocking Banner is merely a tool for huge packs with streaming adds. You don't see many of those anyway.

    Then again, I love tanking on my warrior, and my warrior alone. To each their own. I can't find myself to tank on any other class.
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  3. #3
    Deleted
    You missed Heroic Leap there. Anyhow, in 90 levels of content, the only point where it seemed to me that you couldn't aggro everything that came at the raid was H Immerseus, and that's without Shockwave, ofc, thanks Blizzard. Not really problematic, even though there is only 1 flag each 2/3 waves. Don't remember any more cases on either raids or dungeons. Maybe when you are running through thrash for 30 secs before turning on them (but dps are already attacking), I guess, ie primordius or sha thrash.

    Blabe Barrier would give an AFK way of picking up adds, though. I'm kinda divided between "more tools is better" and "things are better a tiny bit hard".
    Last edited by mmoc38db56fadf; 2014-02-09 at 09:37 PM.

  4. #4
    Warrior tanking has always been more difficult when dealing with multiple targets. I don't ever want two classes to have an equal set of tools, otherwise there may as well only be one class. One tool that will help you to play your warrior is learning how to tab target. Once you add that, along with Heroic leap (ranged AOE), charge (back to your original target), and Mocking Banner (I usually save this for pulling targets off of healers), you'll have a handle on managing AOE threat.

    I used to think that Paladin tanks had gotten a better AOE toolkit (I started playing a warrior back when Paladins were just used for their buffs), but after trying one out I came to the conclusion that they are different, but not better.

    The key difficulty with any tank is getting DPS to pay attention to what they are hitting. Any DPS can pull target off of any tank if the DPS isn't paying attention. The same holds true for DPS bringing targets to the tank. A decent DPS (or healer for that matter) is more than capable of bringing an errant target to the tank and handing it off; a raid-ready player can do that without harming their personal performance.
    Last edited by Waarheid; 2014-02-09 at 09:46 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waarheid View Post
    Warrior tanking has always been more difficult when dealing with multiple targets. I don't ever want two classes to have an equal set of tools, otherwise there may as well only be one class. One tool that will help you to play your warrior is learning how to tab target. Once you add that, along with Heroic leap (ranged AOE), charge (back to your original target), and Mocking Banner (I usually save this for pulling targets off of healers), you'll have a handle on managing AOE threat.

    I used to think that Paladin tanks had gotten a better AOE toolkit (I started playing a warrior back when Paladins were just used for their buffs), but after trying one out I came to the conclusion that they are different, but not better.
    Basically yeah, Warrior AoE threat has almost always been weaker. Even when Warriors were considered the stronger tanking class, they were pretty weak in the AoE department. You REALLY had to work for it. I remember in TBC people always wanted pallies or even druids over Warriors for things like Heroic Shattered Halls / MgT. Running the lesser content with a pug warrior tank was always kind of sketchy, 3+ mobs and some would almost always slip away. We had to make really good use of tab targeting and our abilities. But I liked it, it was a nice challenge and that made it fun.

    Now that I've been playing a pally for half of Cata and most of MoP though ... I will say that sometimes Warrior threat in general, while perfectly fine and acceptable, feels like a bit of a chore in some regards. I'm not in any way implying that Warriors are weak, not by a long shot, nor am I saying that they need any additional tools, but it's still a lot easier to deal with stupid DPS on a pally than it is on a warrior. Or that's been my experience anyway. I think that's fine though, I like that there is a difference in how the tank classes work. I do think that some times, in some situations, Warriors feel a little clunky in comparison to their paladin counterparts. Not really sure about the other tank classes as I haven't played a druid since WLK (And I see very very very few of them these days for some reason.) and I've never tried tanking on a monk.

  6. #6
    Immortal Raugnaut's Avatar
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    In terms of Damage/AoE threat, its really equal until you get to the monk, which is hands and heads above all the other tank's AoE damage output.

    In terms of tools for getting AoE threat, yea, it IS kind of lacking. Paladins have constant "AoE threat" mode, druids have slight windows in AoE threat mode where they don't put out any threat, same as DKs, and monks have huge constant "AoE threat" mode with that RJW.
    Warriors, on the other hand, get small windows to deliver large amounts of threat, in addition to mocking banner.

    So yea, in terms of TOOLS, warriors have significantly LESS tools then other classes, BUT Mocking Banner is very, very strong.
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  7. #7
    I haven't tanked on a Paladin this xpac but I've leveled a brewmaster and am leveling a warrior tank now. Believe me that I miss Keg Toss a LOT, chaining dungeons with my healer friend we pull a good 5-6 groups sometimes but being able to get threat on every mob is difficult and with all the stupid dps deciding to start AOEing when I body pull I miss Keg Toss every time. When leveling my monk I don't remember mobs ever getting pulled off of me this much, especially with Keg Smash once they're all in one area.

  8. #8
    Be happy you're not a Death Knight. Having to sacrifice Death Runes [i.e. Heals/Mitigation] on Blood Boil to do full AoE damage or if someone pulls something is just saddening. Thankfully the latter doesn't happen too much out of new content. In terms of ease of picking up adds or doing AoE damage, imo it has to be: Monk > Paladin > Druid>=Warrior > Death Knight.

    Warriors might not be the best but they sure as hell don't have it the worst; if you're already AoEing chances are you're able to spam Revenge, so just use that to pick up new adds if TC is on CD. That's not to say it can't be improved of course, but they should be looking at other classes too.
    Last edited by Soisoisoi; 2014-02-10 at 12:06 AM.

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans MrKnubbles's Avatar
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    I completely agree with you. Pally is my main tank and I have two Warrior tanks. Tanking on them is not nearly as fun.

    I wouldn't even count Heroic Leap as an aoe threat generator since you can only use it on initiation. BUT! I'd prefer to charge for the rage generation. Warriors have great mobility and I love that, but I feel a few changes need to be made. I've made my own Warrior abilities and talents but I won't get into that in your thread. I just think they need to combine similar abilities like Cleave and Revenge and then add new ones like War Cry (aoe around Warrior) and Ravager (Throw weapon to location and it spins damage there) and those would solve our aoe issues.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKnubbles View Post
    BUT! I'd prefer to charge for the rage generation
    You can use both Leap & Charge if you're quick enough. Charge first for Rage, Leap during to get the damage. You won't get the damage from HL if you charge after. Assuming you don't need the mobility of course.

  11. #11
    Hammer of the Righteous hits like a wet noodle - just look at the damage it does! Consecration takes time to build aggro. Holy Wrath splits its damage between targets, so it gets worse for AoE threat the more targets there are. Paladins tank with Seal of Insight, not Righteousness. Holy Prism is good, but it has a 5 target limit.

    I'd take TC/Deep Wounds any day!

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans MrKnubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kortane View Post
    I'd take TC/Deep Wounds any day!
    Most of the abilities you listed are great for snap threat. I use Light's Hammer instead of Holy Prism. Pallies have tons of aoe tools. The best part is that they all have their own cooldowns. Thunderclap is great and all but it's only one ability so you're limited on threat tools when new adds arrive.
    Last edited by MrKnubbles; 2014-02-10 at 12:38 AM.
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  13. #13
    It's sort of always been like this, on the other hand it's not as bad as it seems because Tclapping to spread DW is actually some serious threat. It just always feels like it's on CD. Be smart with your Cleave, Revenge and single target - Warrior requires a brain when locking AoE threat at the start.

    Actually IMO getting your AoE bleeds going and using Shockwave to control adds while you lock threat was always the most fun part of Warrior tanking. Single target tanking is boring by comparison.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKnubbles View Post
    Most of the abilities you listed are great for snap threat. I use Light's Hammer instead of Holy Prism. Pallies have tons of aoe tools. The best part is that they all have their own cooldowns. Thunderclap is great and all but it's only one ability so you're limited on threat tools when new adds arrive.
    Shockwave, charge multitarget stun, buys some time to get some threat into them with cleave, single target abilities etc and for Tclap to come off CD. Obviously this is fiddlier than Pally AoE, but Warriors do have the tools necessary. Just requires more planning.
    Last edited by Mormolyce; 2014-02-10 at 12:35 AM.
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  14. #14
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    since they lowered the cd for BS imo warrie rules aoe tanking.
    I did not use BS before - lets call it a buff - but right now i barely meet other tank classes who outthreat me in aoe fights.

    In most of the encounters where aoe tanking is needed the lowered cd from BS makes it really playable because add spawns (most of the time) correlate with its cd.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kortane View Post
    Hammer of the Righteous hits like a wet noodle - just look at the damage it does! Consecration takes time to build aggro. Holy Wrath splits its damage between targets, so it gets worse for AoE threat the more targets there are. Paladins tank with Seal of Insight, not Righteousness. Holy Prism is good, but it has a 5 target limit.

    I'd take TC/Deep Wounds any day!
    Having tanked this xpac on Paladin, Monk, and Warrior... I will say that when it comes to AoE tanking, it's Monk>Warrior>Paladin from those 3... and mostly from the quoted reasons.

  16. #16
    Warriors could definitely use some love in terms of aoe for streaming adds where you need more than one ability per 6 seconds.. As a bear i can aoe 3 gcds out of 4, as a dk you can aoe quite a bit but sometimes it needs some planning, paladins abilities almost all do aoe naturally, monks can be permanently in spinning crane kick outside of keg smashes..

  17. #17
    The Insane apepi's Avatar
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  18. #18
    I have never seen a warrior tank have any issues ever with aoe threat. Their moves hit far harder then a paladins pathetic aoe. Even more so since warriors put a dot on every target with thunder clap. That is much better then a paladins aoe. I get more aoe aggro from my healing then I do my aoe moves. They are just pathetic. I use em mostly for single target threat and consider any slight aoe threat a bonus. Warrior tanks aoe hits really hard with that dot.

  19. #19
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    Warrior aoe>Paladin aoe. Deep wounds at high vengeance with the bonus crit from riposte does far more damage than all paladin aoe combined. For adds that don't all come out at once paladins do have a slight advantage that is largely mitigated by our awful damage.
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    I have to say that for Seal of Righteousness vs Seal of Insight, you really, REALLY should go with Righteousness for AoE pulls.

    Insight, while it DOES add up over time, will NEVER, EVER help you stay alive now. It also does paltry threat generation in comparision to Righteousness in AoE situation.

    And yes, while Hammer does crap damage, and consecration does take a wee bit to do full damage, and holy wrath DOES do less damage per target, all of them combined, with Lights Hammer is about equivalent to TC/Deep wounds. As I stated earlier, paladins do more of a "constant" AoE thing compared to warriors, who will find it hard to pick up new things outside the 6 second CD window.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

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