Will Tinkers be a class in WoW?

[Ielenia]

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying...

We accept Sunwalkers, Vindicators, etc. as Paladins because they have the same abilities as the Paladin class. Why would we do that for Engineering when it doesn't have abilities from Tinkers, Blackfuse, etc.?

Because you are thinking simply in terms of a game, and not in lore and world setting.

For same reason why we can't progress further in the pokemon game because a tiny sappling blocks our way, when we clearly could have simply walked over it, or why I can't simply jump over a small rocky formation that forces me to go through a different path in a first-person game when we could jump over higher things.

[Teriz]

Just look at what they do. They create technology. Nothing else in the game does that.

Mages and Priests both create magic. Are they also the same thing?

In short, you cannot find a single example of either Blackfuse or Thermaplugg being called Engineers. They don't have any abilities within the Engineering profession. Your weak argument that they both build or use technology is worthless, and falls apart when you apply simple common sense.

I'll just repea what I wrote since you did what you do best: completely ignore and twist other people's words:
Heroes of the Storm is not World of Warcraft, nor it is connected to it in any in-game way. WoW's Gazlowe is a rogue. You can't dispute that

Warcraft 3 was also not WoW, however all of the WoW classes and the majority of the lore was pulled from WC3. Additionally, all the heroes from HotS have most of their abilities from their respective WoW classes.

No, I'm saying player Vindicators summon elekk mounts. Player Blood Knights summon the Thalassion Warhorses. By your own definition, they're different classes.

Incorrect. By my definition they're the same because they share the same abilities. If the Engineering profession housed (or could ever house) abilities from Blackfuse, Thermaplugg or the Tinker hero, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Great, you're almost getting it. I'll rephrase you to help you understand it:
It's pretty hypocritical how you're claiming engineers are different from each other because of titles, while arguing that Paladins, Vindicators and Blood Knights are all paladins when they don't share anythin in common other than being 'soldiers of the Light'.

Well you're wrong. Vindicators, Blood Knights, and Sunwalkers all share the same abilities as the player Paladin, so they share more than just a theme.

That is not a fact. A profession and a class do not occupy the same design space as long as they do not have the same theme.

A class and a profession can never have the same theme because they don't do the same thing.

No, there isn't. At least give us an example to your wild, baseless claims?

Other than Blackfuse and the Tinker hero doing things that the Engineering profession will ever be able to do?

What.
One: what kind of drugs are you on? Two: why are you not sharing? Enchanters are common folk who use magical reagents to give an item extra magical properties. A mage is an extraordinary person capable of manipulating mana to create devastating offensive spells.

How is that any different that an Engineer using mechanical regents to give an item extra firepower, while a Tinker would be capable of using advanced weaponry and robotics to decimate opponents?

Oh, they did? Care to show us when and where they said "Yes, Teriz, your Tinker class idea is doable"?

Thoughts of a Tinker class? If not now maybe down the road?
I've said before it depends on the treatment. Too easy for that class to be too wacky or precious. (Source)
A more steampunk vibe sounds cool to me. A dude in a mech having misfires that poop out springs and gears less so. (Source)
I don't know. Lucca from Chrono Trigger could work. A little bit of gnomish (tee hee) world enlarger goes a long way IMO. (Source)
But maybe one of the designers will come up with a pitch perfect design that blows us away someday. Shrug. (Source)

https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...84467674243072

In other words, its very doable.

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The several times you pointed out specific examples, particular from WC3/Heroes of the Storm? I'm not gonna go back and pull up the specific examples because, y'know, these are pretty damn long posts *already* without relinking and rehashing. But you specifically pointed out, IIRC, 'Engineers don't have a laser they can charge up to do more damage'. 'Engineers don't build robots to help them fight things (paraphrasing this one, apologies if that is not the exact wording), I believe you also linked some 'Grav-o-Bomb' which draws affected targets in then does damage? You constantly pointed very specific things you wanted to be able to do to use them as the foundation for your 'Tinkers *ARE* a potential class in WoW' argument, and have not yet addressed any of the overarching thematic concerns (or, to my satisfaction, the game mechanics concerns) with it.

How does that change the fact that professions and classes aren't the same and don't occupy the same design space?

'm sorry. That line is just completely played out. You can keep repeating it, but as the continued posting pretty much shows, most of us aren't buying it. You need a more convincing argument than 'because I said so' to give me a real distinction between what your vision of a Tinker is and what I see a <class X> with Engineering doing.

You mean other than a Tinker class tanking/healing/DPSing in a dungeon, and an Engineer cobbling parts together to make an exploding sheep?

There clearly *is* a level of technology beyond what Engineering is capable of. And I believe, at least for now and, IMO, for a good while longer, that level of technology needs to not be player-attainable. I don't think anyone's going to argue that these things aren't possible--we have, as you say, airships, etc. etc. But they are supposed to be fanciful, wowing things. True machines of war. This is the World of Warcraft--a world based on fantasy, on orcs, goblins, humans and trolls, dwarves and gnomes, warriors and mages and priests and shamans. I don't want it to be a world populated by Terran Marines, and I suppose that's one of my objections to the idea. I don't find it particularly themely to have legions of heroes in mechasuits, deploying rockets and lasers and the like.

I'm pretty sure that falls under your opinion, which you're welcome to. However, its only your opinion.

I recall at least Ghostcrawler saying it'd take a lot of work and that the current aesthetic of it wouldn't fit with the rest of WoW.

No, he said it might be too whimsical, and it would depend on its treatment. In other words, all it requires is the right tone.

And you still haven't really answered (again, to my satisfaction, not that I think this is something that can be satisfied): Why would we *need* a Tinker class?

Nor do I have any desire to. Because as you said, no answer would satisfy you.

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Just because an engineer builds a toy train set, and the other builds a rocket launcher does not mean they're not the same thing. Both are engineers. Titles are meaningless and are only indicative of either ego or job position in a given company/group.

If the Engineer is incapable of building the Rocket Launcher, yet a Siegecrafter is perfectly capable of building the Rocket Launcher, (and other things that the Engineer could ever hope to build) then the Siegecrafter is different than the Engineer.

[Ielenia]

In short, you cannot find a single example of either Blackfuse or Thermaplugg being called Engineers.

Nor can you find a single example of them being anything other than engineers. They deal with technology, and since engineer is the only thing in WoW that deals with technology, it stands to reason they are engineers. There is no disputing that.

Warcraft 3 was also not WoW, however all of the WoW classes and the majority of the lore was pulled from WC3. Additionally, all the heroes from HotS have most of their abilities from their respective WoW classes.

Wrong. Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft are the same, exact universe. The same world and maps of WC3 exist in WoW. The exact same NPCs, all of them. The exact same lore. 'Heroes of the Storm', on the other hand, is not connected in-game to any of the universes it copies characters from, much like the Super Smash Brawl game is not connected to any of the games its characters hail from.

Incorrect. By my definition they're the same because they share the same abilities.

Same thing with engineering and Blackfuse and Thermaplugg and other engineer NPCs. Engineering can house any of their abilities easily.

Well you're wrong. Vindicators, Blood Knights, and Sunwalkers all share the same abilities as the player Paladin, so they share more than just a theme.

Same with engineering and Thermaplug and Blackfuse. All have the same abilities and theme, so they're engineers.

A class and a profession can never have the same theme because they don't do the same thing.

Your Tinker's theme is technology. Engineering's theme is technology. Your Tinker creates technology gadgets. Engineering creates technology gadgets. Are you going to dispute that?

Other than Blackfuse and the Tinker hero doing things that the Engineering profession will ever be able to do?

Blackfuse is not an example for you because he is an engineer. And your Tinker is also not an example because he's an engineer as well. And how can you say 'engineering will never be able to do'? There is not only no basis for that claim, but you also cannot see the future to make such affirmative conclusion.

How is that any different that an Engineer using mechanical regents to give an item extra firepower, while a Tinker would be capable of using advanced weaponry and robotics to decimate opponents?

Because the two examples you just mentioned are simple the exact same thing?

In other words, its very doable.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the same. all I see is: "As the game stands now, a Tinker class is unlikely." Also, Ghost Crawler is no longer in the WoW developer team, so his words mean nothing, now.

Oh, and by the way? How's this for you, just for kicks: I don't see "Yes, Teriz. Your specific Tinker class idea is doable" in there. (see? I'm using your logic! Using specific examples to refute arguments!)

But it still stands. Your Tinker is pretty likely impossible, with the way you put it.

[Teriz]

Nor can you find a single example of them being anything other than engineers. They deal with technology, and since engineer is the only thing in WoW that deals with technology, it stands to reason they are engineers. There is no disputing that.

Siegecrafters, Mekgineers, and Tinkers also deal with technology, and as you've demonstrated, they aren't Engineers.

Wrong. Warcraft 3 and World of Warcraft are the same, exact universe. The same world and maps of WC3 exist in WoW. The exact same NPCs, all of them. The exact same lore. 'Heroes of the Storm', on the other hand, is not connected in-game to any of the universes it copies characters from, much like the Super Smash Brawl game is not connected to any of the games its characters hail from.

I didn't say its connected in game. I'm saying that Blizzard created both games, and Blizzard knows better than anyone else what those characters are. If Blizzard says that Gazlowe is a Tinker, then Gazlowe is a Tinker.

Same thing with engineering and Blackfuse and Thermaplugg and other engineer NPCs. Engineering can house any of their abilities easily.

Then please list the abilities from Blackfuse, Thermaplugg or the Tinker unit that the Engineering profession has housed.

Same with engineering and Thermaplug and Blackfuse. All have the same abilities and theme, so they're engineers.

Then please list the abilities from Blackfuse, Thermaplugg or the Tinker unit that the Engineering profession has housed.

Your Tinker's theme is technology. Engineering's theme is technology. Your Tinker creates technology gadgets. Engineering creates technology gadgets. Are you going to dispute that?

We're not talking about "my" Tinker, we're talking about the Tinker concept as in a possible Technology class. No class is WoW crafts items for sell. Only professions do that.

Blackfuse is not an example for you because he is an engineer. And your Tinker is also not an example because he's an engineer as well.

As I asked before, please show us where Blackfuse is ever called an Engineer.

And how can you say 'engineering will never be able to do'? There is not only no basis for that claim, but you also cannot see the future to make such affirmative conclusion.

Because Engineering is a profession that cannot perform class abilities. That would be the basis for that claim. If you disagree with that claim, Then please list the abilities from Blackfuse, Thermaplugg or the Tinker unit that the Engineering profession has housed.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the same.

Of course you don't. Let me translate it for you: The Tinker concept is doable, it just requires the proper tone.

If you don't believe that Blizzard can overcome a tone issue, then there's little help for you.

[Deepsidedj]

this thread again

[Rhamses]

For same reason why we can't progress further in the pokemon game because a tiny sappling blocks our way, when we clearly could have simply walked over it, or why I can't simply jump over a small rocky formation that forces me to go through a different path in a first-person game when we could jump over higher things.

Okay, that would be Nintendo making their game challenging, or limiting.

That doesn't answer my question about Engineers. Why would we consider Engineers the same as Tinkers, Blackfuse, etc. when they don't have the same name, and don't have the same abilities?

[Ielenia]

Siegecrafters, Mekgineers, and Tinkers also deal with technology, and as you've demonstrated, they aren't Engineers.

I never did what you claim I did. I merely pointed out those are simply titles. Titles are not professions and most definitely are not classes.

I didn't say its connected in game. I'm saying that Blizzard created both games, and Blizzard knows better than anyone else what those characters are. If Blizzard says that Gazlowe is a Tinker, then Gazlowe is a Tinker.

It matters none if the developers are the same. Heroes of the Storm is an Elseworlds kind of game, taking elements from the other franchises while at the same time being disconnected from the games themselves. Uther the Lightbringer wears STarcraft medic armor in Heroes of the Storm (for example). He doesn't do that in WoW, does he?

Then please list the abilities from Blackfuse, Thermaplugg or the Tinker unit that the Engineering profession has housed.
Then please list the abilities from Blackfuse, Thermaplugg or the Tinker unit that the Engineering profession has housed.

I don't have to. All of their abilities and technology were created. And what creates technology in Azeroth? Engineering.

We're not talking about "my" Tinker, we're talking about the Tinker concept as in a possible Technology class. No class is WoW crafts items for sell. Only professions do that.

Who's talking about selling items? We're talking about creating and developing technology in Azeroth. Who does that? Engineering.

As I asked before, please show us where Blackfuse is ever called an Engineer.

Gladly! Here's an excerpt from WoW's ingame Dungeon Journal:
"Helix Blackfuse was the only goblin with the combination of engineering prowess, professionalism and ruthlessness to satisfy Garrosh in his search for the engineer of the True Horde."

Boom.

Because Engineering is a profession that cannot perform class abilities. That would be the basis for that claim. If you disagree with that claim, Then please list the abilities from Blackfuse, Thermaplugg or the Tinker unit that the Engineering profession has housed.

Player engineering is simply limited by game mechanics. You know full well all professions are limited by game design as to not overshadow the player classes. The Forsaken plague was created through alchemy, and is the deadliest weapon in Azeroth after the Mana Nuke. The reason players cannot build it is because it would be severely unbalanced, since all it'd take is to lob a vial of that thing on a raid boss' face, and watch said raid boss wither and die an agonizing death. The same thing applies to the player's engineering profession. The non-player engineering and alchemy professions is limitless, because Blizzard can control when and how the technology and alchemy creations are used, something they can't do with players.

Of course you don't. Let me translate it for you: The Tinker concept is doable, it just requires the proper tone.
If you don't believe that Blizzard can overcome a tone issue, then there's little help for you.

Doable? Yes. Probable? Nope a thousand times. I don't doubt Blizzard can overcome a tone issue (which so far you haven't), but it doesn't mean it'll be easy for them, like you imply.

[Teriz]

I never did what you claim I did. I merely pointed out those are simply titles. Titles are not professions and most definitely are not classes.

You mean like Gelbin Mekkatorque's class being Tinker?

http://www.wowwiki.com/Gelbin_Mekkatorque

It matters none if the developers are the same. Heroes of the Storm is an Elseworlds kind of game, taking elements from the other franchises while at the same time being disconnected from the games themselves. Uther the Lightbringer wears STarcraft medic armor in Heroes of the Storm (for example). He doesn't do that in WoW, does he?

Uther is still called a Paladin in HotS, and he has the Paladin class abilities from WoW.

That's the point.

I don't have to. All of their abilities and technology were created.

Actually you do, since you said this;

Same with engineering and Thermaplug and Blackfuse. All have the same abilities and theme, so they're engineers.

Who's talking about selling items?

That's what Engineering does. That isn't what classes do.

Gladly! Here's an excerpt from WoW's ingame Dungeon Journal:
"Helix Blackfuse was the only goblin with the combination of engineering prowess, professionalism and ruthlessness to satisfy Garrosh in his search for the engineer of the True Horde."

Boom.

Still doesn't mean that the Engineering profession is the same thing as Siegecrafting.

Player engineering is simply limited by game mechanics. You know full well all professions are limited by game design as to not overshadow the player classes.

Well we're talking about a class here. Classes revolve around game mechanics.

Doable? Yes. Probable? Nope a thousand times. I don't doubt Blizzard can overcome a tone issue (which so far you haven't), but it doesn't mean it'll be easy for them, like you imply.

So you're saying its difficult for Blizzard to give a class concept a serious tone? Seriously?

[Ielenia]

You mean like Gelbin Mekkatorque's class being Tinker?
http://www.wowwiki.com/Gelbin_Mekkatorque

So when it's used to prove you wrong, WoWWiki is not a reliable source. But to back your claims, WoWWiki is like gospel? Kinda hypocritical of you, is it not?

Uther is still called a Paladin in HotS, and he has the Paladin class abilities from WoW.

He does have the abilities? You're into the game's alpha to be so certain of that?

Actually you do, since you said this;

Created by engineering. Engineering is the only tech-creating job in WoW.

That's what Engineering does. That isn't what classes do.

Engineering doesn't sell items. Engineering makes technology gadgets. Same thing with your Tinker concept.

Still doesn't mean that the Engineering profession is the same thing as Siegecrafting.

Nice try, pity you missed the mark. It's right there, in-game, engineering. If something uses engineering skills, it's engineering. Sorry, but you can't save face on that one.

Well we're talking about a class here. Classes revolve around game mechanics.

Nope. A class revolves around lore and world-setting first. When its concept is defined, then developing team goes to apply game mechanics to it.

So you're saying its difficult for Blizzard to give a class concept a serious tone? Seriously?

Nope. I'm saying it's difficult for Blizzard to create a technology-themed class when the technology theme is all taken by Engineering.

[Teriz]

So when it's used to prove you wrong, WoWWiki is not a reliable source. But to back your claims, WoWWiki is like gospel? Kinda hypocritical of you, is it not?

Actually I said that Blizzard knows its characters better than WoWWiki. As of right now, I'm not seeing Blizzard counter the notion that Gelbin is a Tinker.

Let me know when you do.

He does have the abilities? You're into the game's alpha to be so certain of that?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...m-Alpha-Client

Holy Light, Holy Radiance, Hammer of Justice, Divine Shield, Divine Storm

Sound familiar?

Created by engineering. Engineering is the only tech-creating job in WoW.

Siegecrafter, Mekgineer, Tinker, Artificer, Technician, and Gearmaster say otherwise.

Engineering doesn't sell items. Engineering makes technology gadgets.

Tell that to all the Engineers currently raking in the dough selling Sky Golems.

Same thing with your Tinker concept.

My Tinker concept doesn't craft items.

Nice try, pity you missed the mark. It's right there, in-game, engineering. If something uses engineering skills, it's engineering. Sorry, but you can't save face on that one.

So if something uses magic skills, its a Mage? If something uses sword skills, its a warrior? That's how dumb your argument is.

Nope. A class revolves around lore and world-setting first. When its concept is defined, then developing team goes to apply game mechanics to it.

No, classes revolve around its theme, then game mechanics are applied. Lore is re-shaped so that the class can fit within the game. Case in point, the Pandaren popping up in every city seemingly out of nowhere BEFORE we landed in Pandaria. This was done so that non-Pandaren Monks could have a trainer nearby starting at level 1.

Another example would be the Paladin example. If lore were as important as you seem to think it is, we'd have Vindicator, Blood Knight, and Sunwalker classes. However, since game mechanics and theme trumps lore when it comes to classes, all of those groups are simply Paladins.

Nope. I'm saying it's difficult for Blizzard to create a technology-themed class when the technology theme is all taken by Engineering.

Again, the Engineering profession's theme is crafting items for sale. A technology class' theme is using technology to protect allies and defeat enemies.

Its not the same theme, design space, or purpose. Your inability to provide any abilities that exist between the profession or tech-themed NPCs proves that.

[Ielenia]

Siegecrafter, Mekgineer, Tinker, Artificer, Technician, and Gearmaster say otherwise.

Engineer, engineer, engineer, engineer, engineer and enginner. Siegecrafter, Mekgineer, Tinker, Artificer, Technician and Gearmaster are simply titles, as explained a thousand times.

Tell that to all the Engineers currently raking in the dough selling Sky Golems.

The players are selling the sky golems. The engineering simply created the items. I don't recall an option in my profession window saying 'sell this item after crafting'.

My Tinker concept doesn't craft items.

That's your version of the story you're sticking to? That 'pocket factory' does sound something he would build, y'know? Besides, if your "tinker" doesn't craft its own gadgets, I can't even begin to think how much wealthy a character must be to be a "tinker" and having to constantly buy more rockets, "pocket factories", satellites, "hammer tanks" (since, of course, you made it self-destruct) among many other items in your class idea.

So if something uses magic skills, its a Mage? If something uses sword skills, its a warrior? That's how dumb your argument is.

Sorry man, you lost. Insulting my argument doesn't make it any less true. Game says, engineering. You lost. Accept it.

No, classes revolve around its theme, then game mechanics are applied.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

Lore is re-shaped so that the class can fit within the game. Case in point, the Pandaren popping up in every city seemingly out of nowhere BEFORE we landed in Pandaria. This was done so that non-Pandaren Monks could have a trainer nearby starting at level 1.

Those Pandaren trainers came from the Wandering Isle, from before the first march into Pandaria. Go start a new pandaren character and you'll see. The crash into the Wandering Isle happens before the accidental discovery of Pandaria. Again, nice try, but you missed the mark.

Another example would be the Paladin example. If lore were as important as you seem to think it is, we'd have Vindicator, Blood Knight, and Sunwalker classes. However, since game mechanics and theme trumps lore when it comes to classes, all of those groups are simply Paladins.

Blizzard keeps them named 'paladins' for simplicity's sake, and they don't want classes to be race-specific, especially after they did away with the Shaman being Draenei-only and the Paladin being BE-only for their respective factions.

Again, the Engineering profession's theme is crafting items for sale.

No. Again, the engineering profession's theme is crafting tech items. Period. The Tinker does the same thing.

Its not the same theme, design space, or purpose. Your inability to provide any abilities that exist between the profession or tech-themed NPCs proves that.

I proved it thousands of times. You are the one that has the inability to accept it. Just because you refuse to accept any argument against your idea, it doesn't make them any less true.

Engineer creates technology. Tinker creates technology. Both create bombs, both create robots.

[Teriz]

Engineer, engineer, engineer, engineer, engineer and enginner. Siegecrafter, Mekgineer, Tinker, Artificer, Technician and Gearmaster are simply titles, as explained a thousand times.

And a thousand times wrong since they don't share the same abilities.

The players are selling the sky golems. The engineering simply created the items. I don't recall an option in my profession window saying 'sell this item after crafting'.

But the option exists. Class can't sell abilities even if they want to.

That's your version of the story you're sticking to? That 'pocket factory' does sound something he would build, y'know? Besides, if your "tinker" doesn't craft its own gadgets, I can't even begin to think how much wealthy a character must be to be a "tinker" and having to constantly buy more rockets, "pocket factories", satellites, "hammer tanks" (since, of course, you made it self-destruct) among many other items in your class idea.

I'm sure it works the same as a Monk who busts millions of kegs over the heads of enemies while tanking.

Sorry man, you lost. Insulting my argument doesn't make it any less true. Game says, engineering. You lost. Accept it.

Again, are all users of magic called Mages? Are all weapon/Melee users Warriors?

Your argument simply doesn't stack up against the facts.

Those Pandaren trainers came from the Wandering Isle, from before the first march into Pandaria. Go start a new pandaren character and you'll see. The crash into the Wandering Isle happens before the accidental discovery of Pandaria. Again, nice try, but you missed the mark.

I said a non-Pandaren monk. There's Monk trainers in almost every race's starting zone.

Blizzard keeps them named 'paladins' for simplicity's sake, and they don't want classes to be race-specific, especially after they did away with the Shaman being Draenei-only and the Paladin being BE-only for their respective factions.

Which makes sense because game mechanics trumps lore when it comes to character classes. Thanks for proving my point.

No. Again, the engineering profession's theme is crafting tech items. Period. The Tinker does the same thing.

How when a class can't craft anything?

I proved it thousands of times. You are the one that has the inability to accept it. Just because you refuse to accept any argument against your idea, it doesn't make them any less true.

Except it isn't true. Which is why you can't post a single ability that the engineering profession, Mekgineers, Siegecrafters, Tinkers, etc. share with one another. That fact (among several others) invalidates your entire argument.

[Ielenia]

And a thousand times wrong since they don't share the same abilities.

Just because they created different items? That argument of yours doesn't work, man. They're all titles.

But the option exists. Class can't sell abilities even if they want to.

Characters sell items. It's independent of their profession or lack thereof. Also, if one were to be class-less, they would also be able to sell items.

I'm sure it works the same as a Monk who busts millions of kegs over the heads of enemies while tanking.

I'm pretty sure buying new kegs of beer is like a thousand times cheaper than having to buy tanks, missiles, robots and bombs.

Again, are all users of magic called Mages? Are all weapon/Melee users Warriors?
Your argument simply doesn't stack up against the facts.

Magic users are called spellcasters:
Arcane/fire/arcane magic casters are called mages;
Fel/Demonic magic casters are called warlocks;
Elemental magic casters are called shamans;
Holy magic casters are called priests;

Which facts?

I said a non-Pandaren monk. There's Monk trainers in almost every race's starting zone.

Non-pandaren monks trained by the Pandaren monks that came from the Wandering Isle.

Which makes sense because game mechanics trumps lore when it comes to character classes. Thanks for proving my point.

Game mechanics never trump lore.

How when a class can't craft anything?

Right. Sorry. Your Tinker buys everything from the auction house, paying the exorbitant prices for those items, right? I say Auction house becaue I see no store that sells 'claw tanks', for example.

Except it isn't true. Which is why you can't post a single ability that the engineering profession, Mekgineers, Siegecrafters, Tinkers, etc. share with one another. That fact (among several others) invalidates your entire argument.

Do you want an ability? How about the ability to create technology? That is what binds all of those together. The engineering job creates robots, bombs, helicopters, motorbikes, tanks, lasers, sky fortresses, iron juggernauts, iron stars! It's impossible to dispute that, it's all in-game! A title does not make an engineer different than the other.

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And it's just me and Teriz in this thread right now. I'll just stop here before a mod decides to close it. But I will say this: try as you might, Teriz, you'll convince nobody that 'Siegecrafter', 'Mekgineer' and the like are nothing but titles.

[Florena]

I don't expect to see engineers in game. Could it be done? Maybe, but it would be hard to do without coming across as too silly and not having too much overlap with the engineering profession.

[Teriz]

Just because they created different items? That argument of yours doesn't work, man. They're all titles.

Items are not abilities genius.

Characters sell items. It's independent of their profession or lack thereof. Also, if one were to be class-less, they would also be able to sell items.

However the profession creates items that they can sell. Classes do not.

I'm pretty sure buying new kegs of beer is like a thousand times cheaper than having to buy tanks, missiles, robots and bombs.

Or it's simply a game mechanic that doesn't require that much thought. Just like a Tinker having tons of machinery for combat.

Magic users are called spellcasters:
Arcane/fire/arcane magic casters are called mages;
Fel/Demonic magic casters are called warlocks;
Elemental magic casters are called shamans;
Holy magic casters are called priests;

Which facts?

That you proved my point. The only reason all them are different is because they all have different abilities from each other. Which is expressed by the adjectives you placed in front of "magic caster". Just like the Engineering Profession, Mekgineer, Siegecrafter, and Tinker. If they had the same abilities, then all of those fancy names would just be titles.

Non-pandaren monks trained by the Pandaren monks that came from the Wandering Isle.

Doubtful, since the only Pandaren from the Wandering Isle arrived in Ogrimmar and Stormwind. There's Monk trainers everywhere.

Game mechanics never trump lore.

The Paladin class (and almost every other class) proves it does.

Right. Sorry. Your Tinker buys everything from the auction house, paying the exorbitant prices for those items, right? I say Auction house becaue I see no store that sells 'claw tanks', for example.

I'd say that's a whole lot of crap because you have nothing to counter the facts.

Do you want an ability? How about the ability to create technology? That is what binds all of those together. The engineering job creates robots, bombs, helicopters, motorbikes, tanks, lasers, sky fortresses, iron juggernauts, iron stars! It's impossible to dispute that, it's all in-game! A title does not make an engineer different than the other.

Just like a title doesn't make one magic user different than another right?

And it's just me and Teriz in this thread right now. I'll just stop here before a mod decides to close it. But I will say this: try as you might, Teriz, you'll convince nobody that 'Siegecrafter', 'Mekgineer' and the like are nothing but titles.

Except I don't need to convince anyone. The facts are the facts.

[Ielenia]

Ugh...

Items are not abilities genius.

Thanks to their engineering profession, they have the ability to create wondrous technological gadgets.

However the profession creates items that they can sell. Classes do not.

Game mechanics aside, from an entirely lore-wise and world-setting viewpoint, what stops your Tinkers from selling the items they create for profit?

Or it's simply a game mechanic that doesn't require that much thought. Just like a Tinker having tons of machinery for combat.

For the last time. Stop arguing game mechanics. We're talking lore and world setting. And how do you think your 'tinker' got all those 'tons of machinery' for combat? It just didn't spontaneously assembled itself from nothing in the tinker's hands, y'know?

That you proved my point. The only reason all them are different is because they all have different abilities from each other. Which is expressed by the adjectives you placed in front of "magic caster". Just like the Engineering Profession, Mekgineer, Siegecrafter, and Tinker. If they had the same abilities, then all of those fancy names would just be titles.

Proves nothing. 'Magic' is as broad a term as 'craft' is. Engineering is one type of craft. Technology craft. Which is the whole basis for 'tinkers'.

Doubtful, since the only Pandaren from the Wandering Isle arrived in Ogrimmar and Stormwind. There's Monk trainers everywhere.

Just because you didn't see them arrive later or earler does not mean that didn't happen, you know?

The Paladin class (and almost every other class) proves it does.

Just because you say so? Doubt it.

I'd say that's a whole lot of crap because you have nothing to counter the facts.

All I have to 'counter' that is the fact that you said your Tinker doesn't craft anything, and the fact that there is no store in the whole of Azeroth that sells sawblades, powerful bombs, and 'claw tanks'.

Just like a title doesn't make one magic user different than another right?

I'll repeat: 'Magic' is as broad a term as 'craft' is. Engineering is one type of craft. Technology craft. Which is the whole basis for 'tinkers'.

Except I don't need to convince anyone. The facts are the facts.

And all facts go against you and your idea, my friend. You're the only one that thinks otherwise. The only one.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and BTW: I checked Uther the Lightbringer's abilities on Nexus:

Holy Light does not damage enemies in WoW;
Holy Radiance does not damage enemies and heal friends in a line in WoW;
Hammer of Justice does not do damage in WoW;
Divine Shield does not increase movement speed and cannot be cast on others in WoW;
Divine Storm does not stun enemies in WoW.

With all that, I bid you good night.

[darkwarrior42]

I personally think anyone that votes 0% is being naive. They have gone back on so many "nevers" that I don't think there is 0% of anything they do.

That said, I don't see the tinker actually happening, so I voted 0-10% :-P

[Teriz]

Ugh...


Thanks to their engineering profession, they have the ability to create wondrous technological gadgets.

An ability that wouldn't be shared by a class.

Game mechanics aside, from an entirely lore-wise and world-setting viewpoint, what stops your Tinkers from selling the items they create for profit?

Game mechanics is the only thing that matters, because a class can't sell its abilities, and classes don't craft items that they can sell. So it's an irrelevant and pointless argument.

For the last time. Stop arguing game mechanics. We're talking lore and world setting. And how do you think your 'tinker' got all those 'tons of machinery' for combat? It just didn't spontaneously assembled itself from nothing in the tinker's hands, y'know?

No, we're talking classes, and classes are nothing but game mechanics.

Proves nothing. 'Magic' is as broad a term as 'craft' is. Engineering is one type of craft. Technology craft. Which is the whole basis for 'tinkers'.

Actually it's not, since there are also different types of technology. There's Goblin tech, Gnome tech, Iron Horde tech, Naaru tech, Titan tech, Magic-based tech and Demonic tech.

The Engineering profession only covers Goblin and Gnome tech, and it barely covers that.

Just because you didn't see them arrive later or earler does not mean that didn't happen, you know?

Doubtful. More than likely the Pandaren Monk trainers were roaming the world just like Chen Stormstout did, long before the arrival of player Pandaren from the wandering isle.

Just because you say so? Doubt it.

Blizzard says so, since Vindicators, Blood Knights, and Suwalkers all have the same abilities, and they're all called Paladins.

All I have to 'counter' that is the fact that you said your Tinker doesn't craft anything, and the fact that there is no store in the whole of Azeroth that sells sawblades, powerful bombs, and 'claw tanks'.

Just like there are no stores that sell the keg and brew that allows Keg Smash. There's also no stores that sell arrows or bullets for Hunters. And there's no stores that sell the daggers that Rogues throw. In short, its a gameplay mechanic that doesn't require the amount of BS you're trying to stuff into it.

I'll repeat: 'Magic' is as broad a term as 'craft' is. Engineering is one type of craft. Technology craft. Which is the whole basis for 'tinkers'.

See above, Technology is just as broad as magic is.

And all facts go against you and your idea, my friend. You're the only one that thinks otherwise. The only one.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[Rhamses]

Actually it's not, since there are also different types of technology. There's Goblin tech, Gnome tech, Iron Horde tech, Naaru tech, Titan tech, Magic-based tech and Demonic tech.

The Engineering profession only covers Goblin and Gnome tech, and it barely covers that.

Yes! That's exactly why I when someone says that a tech-class would be too much like Engineering. Blizzard could pull for any variety of tech in the game.

[Ielenia]

Game mechanics is the only thing that matters.
No, we're talking classes, and classes are nothing but game mechanics.

No, because world setting and lore are detached from 'game mechanics'. And classes are thematic concepts adjusted by game mechanics. You assume just because game mechanics limit us, the players, in our interactions with the world of Azeroth, it means our characters would be limited as well if Azeroth were a 'real world' and not a game world.

Actually it's not, since there are also different types of technology. There's Goblin tech, Gnome tech, Iron Horde tech, Naaru tech, Titan tech, Magic-based tech and Demonic tech.
The Engineering profession only covers Goblin and Gnome tech, and it barely covers that.

A few corrections: Iron Horde tech = goblin tech; Naaru tech does not exist. I haven't seen it anywhere in the game or in its lore; Titan tech cannot be comprehended by the mortal races; Azeroth's engineering has magic elements to it; Demonic tech does not exist. Those are all magic constructs.
The engineering job encompasses all of the Goblin and Gnome of Azeroth.

Doubtful. More than likely the Pandaren Monk trainers were roaming the world just like Chen Stormstout did, long before the arrival of player Pandaren from the wandering isle.

Which made your initial argument completely irrelevant.

Blizzard says so, since Vindicators, Blood Knights, and Suwalkers all have the same abilities, and they're all called Paladins.

And so do all of the engineers of Azeroth. Gelbin, Blackfuse, Thermaplugg are all engineers with fancy titles.

Just like there are no stores that sell the keg and brew that allows Keg Smash. There's also no stores that sell arrows or bullets for Hunters. And there's no stores that sell the daggers that Rogues throw. In short, its a gameplay mechanic that doesn't require the amount of BS you're trying to stuff into it.

There are many stores that sell beer and all kinds of alcoholic beverages. And there were shops that sold bullets and arrows for hunters but were removed when Blizzard decided having to manage bullets and arrows were not a fun mechanic. So, technically, they still exist.

See above, Technology is just as broad as magic is.

Above where? Technology is a type of craft. Not as broad at all like magic.