World PvP Heroes

[nyc81991]

The best geared ones still have a huge advantage. I wonder at what item level PvE gear starts being better than Prideful... 560?

People in full heroic / heroic warforged gear will still have an advantage, however it will be a lot less noticeable than it is right now.

The problem is it will take a while before people can get all 550 pvp gear.

[Jediguy]

So it looks like 2 days until the beginning of the new season. How many of the 700-900k HP PvE geared world pvpers are going to go back to queuing from cities like they used to in every year past once they can't just faceroll people with little to no effort?

I will make it my business to hunt down and destroy every single one of these scrubs who abused a broken system and dominated in PvP gameplay without ever investing in PvP gameplay. The PvE heroes will once again be put in their place.

[solushunz]

People in full heroic / heroic warforged gear will still have an advantage, however it will be a lot less noticeable than it is right now.

The problem is it will take a while before people can get all 550 pvp gear.

In Wrath (when I started playing), heroic ICC gear was only 7 item levels ahead of PVP gear, except PVP gear had resilience built into it and there wasn't any PVP Power, which made the 277 gear not nearly as daunting to people sporting 270 pieces. Why Blizzard ever left this model is beyond me, other than PVE'ers complaining that they had less advantage in WPVP while wearing their raid gear, even though you could buy almost an entire PVP set with Emblems of Frost, which were like pennies to anyone who cleared ICC weekly and had a BiS set of normal/heroic gear.

All Blizzard honestly needs to do is keep with the model they had in Wrath, put Tier 2 back in the game (give PVP some type of gear incentive/progression for not being total trash - let the 1500 heroes flail around in their QQ pool, as they normally do anyway), keep item levels between the two equal in WPVP environments, but scale down the PVE gear in rated environments (i.e. PVE gear scales to 512 item level on live, but PVP gear is 522 item level). This gives people equal opportunity in WPVP but keeps a sense of "balance" in rated PVP. Putting resilience back on gear and taking away PVP Power as a stat would also be necessary.

The only reason raid gear needs to be so far above PVP gear now is simply because scaling has grown out of control in PVE environments, i.e. damage vs. boss HP pools. Gear item levels were able to be kept similar then because smaller numbers are easier to balance, fact. When something continually grows exponentially, normalization becomes inherently more difficult.

Yes, I realize Wrath and Cata both had the issue of PVE gear showing up in PVP, hence why I suggest it scale down in rated play, below the item level of the current season's gear. Leave them be in WPVP so that PVE'ers aren't completely trash in their gear and PVP'ers aren't at a major gearing disadvantage. If someone truly loves the game and wants to enjoy both aspects, they'll get the gear they need for both sides, in order to progress - end of story.

[Tyrean]

You also have to take into account that blizzard lowered the PvP ilvl because they did not want people to use PvP gear in PvE. In both wrath and cata it was okay and sometimes desirable to use PvP pieces to raid and Blizzard felt that was asking too much of the dragonslayers. The real reason the ilvl difference is there is to discourage PvP gear in PvE settings, not the other way around.

[solushunz]

Well, I find that funny because in PVP, for the first couple of weeks in an expansion, everyone is doing arenas/RBG's in "heroic" blue weapons, until they meet the conquest requirement.

That excuse from them made sense during Wrath/Cata before a Conquest requirement was put on gear, but that is no longer the issue. You're more likely to raid during that month where no one can get early access to an epic weapon from Conquest and get a raid weapon, now.

Even in Wrath/Cata, winning 10 2's games a week wasn't difficult, and half of the time you queue into matches with leavers and collect free points.

[Seditian]

So I was curious so I used wowhead item comparison to compare two full sets. One full 540 set with gems and enchants, and one 566 set that has been double upgraded with gems and enchants. This is what it looks like:

540:
Stamina - 27,018
Intellect - 19,467
PvP Power - 23056 (57.4%)
PvP Resilience 3375 (10.89%)
Spell Power - 10,556

574:
Stamina - 37056
Intellect - 27,578
Spell Power - 14,492

So the PvP player will do roughly 57% more damage to the PvE player. The PvE player has roughly 37% more health, 41% more intellect, 37% more spell power. The PvP player will also take less damage and the PvE player cloak and meta will not work against players.

I don't even want to try to figure out the trinkets, but I think from this general look at stats you can see that the pvp power will make up for the difference if you are not scared by the much larger health pool and don't play stupid.

Some things you didn't think of:

1. They've changed the resilience bonus to be slightly higher.
2. PvE players can get both PvP trinkets for the resilience bonus within two weeks.
3. 574 item level is not the max by far. Legendary cloak alone is 608, which will increase the average item level by a lot.
4. Warforged Heroic items. They can be upgraded to item level 580. So if you meet a BiS heroic PvE player, they'll be around 582 item level, except for the trinkets.
5. Prideful gear will be item level 550, not 540.

Depending on the class, it's probably better for the PvE player to have their PvE trinkets equipped, depending on whether they're opening and have a lot of control abilities or not.

A caster can also easily pick up the 550 item level weapon/off-hand for an immense PvP power boost. Those two things are roughly 50% of the PvP power. Meaning they'll gain 30% damage versus targets and only have to give up 2-3k spellpower and a few hundred stamina/int/crit.

(Nearly) BiS geared PvE players will easily decimate you, especially if they're casters who pick up PvP weapons and/or trinkets. Now this is just me trying to pinpoint a skill-level comparison for an open world PvP fight. But I'd say a 1600 rated BiS PvE player could easily take out a 2k rated PvP player, even if they're the same class. Sure, if you're very good, especially in duels, you'll still win. But you'll get annihilated by similar skilled PvE players in their PvE gear if they're somewhat at your skill level. If they're a mixed player, like a lot of people, who don't focus on one aspect of the game, but do heroic raids and high-level PvP. They'll just keep on destroying you, the 28 extra item levels only means you'll survive through the first stun, maybe the second. But definitely not the third.

[solushunz]

Rogue vs. Rogue, it doesn't really matter if you're R1 or a 1500 player, if a 582 ilvl rogue opens on you and you don't trinket the Cheap Shot, you're dead. You're even more dead if this is on Timeless Isle and they have Chi'Ji/Book of Ages/Nutrients/Flask and/or Crystal of Insanity/party buffs/etc.

Hell, you're probably dead if it's ANY class vs. a 582 ilvl rogue, if you don't trinket the Cheap Shot/Garrote. Granted, I killed a 750k HP Combat rogue the other day because he thought opening with Killing Spree was viable and didn't have his stuns bound, but the majority of PVE rogues aren't COMPLETE idiots and have some sense of how their class works in PVP, even if it's basic. Pretty much, if you can get a Sap > Cheap Shot and know hot to run a PVE burst rotation, congratulations, you're a god in many cases, more so on Timeless Isle.

[Seditian]

Rogue vs. Rogue, it doesn't really matter if you're R1 or a 1500 player, if a 582 ilvl rogue opens on you and you don't trinket the Cheap Shot, you're dead. You're even more dead if this is on Timeless Isle and they have Chi'Ji/Book of Ages/Nutrients/Flask and/or Crystal of Insanity/party buffs/etc.

Hell, you're probably dead if it's ANY class vs. a 582 ilvl rogue, if you don't trinket the Cheap Shot/Garrote. Granted, I killed a 750k HP Combat rogue the other day because he thought opening with Killing Spree was viable and didn't have his stuns bound, but the majority of PVE rogues aren't COMPLETE idiots and have some sense of how their class works in PVP, even if it's basic. Pretty much, if you can get a Sap > Cheap Shot and know hot to run a PVE burst rotation, congratulations, you're a god in many cases, more so on Timeless Isle.

True, but Rogues have always been the exception of any world PvP balance at all. Assuming there is such a thing as world PvP balance.

[solushunz]

True, but Rogues have always been the exception of any world PvP balance at all. Assuming there is such a thing as world PvP balance.

Mages have become part of that exception as of late. They're probably on-par with the shenanigans rogues can pull (I main rogue, and I honestly can't stand how my class works right now). A warrior with a pocket healer is a force to be reckoned with more so than say, a Ret or DK (not to say those are bad, but lolwarriors).

[crakerjack]

Heroic geared folks still gonna wipe the floor with you. Instead of it taking 2.3 seconds now it will take them 4.7 seconds. GG

P.S. Plus if you think that Heroic Raiders lack actual pvp ability you are in for a shocker. They might not be La crème de la crème of the pvp world, but they are on par or above 90%+ of the avenger pvper skill and class knowledge wise.

LOL not really... Back in tbc I was in a guild called JUICE, we bounced around in the top 100 US, but I can say that not everyone who hardcore PvEs knows how to PvP correctly. Sure they could get 1800 rating, but that was usually it. When it came to know the ins and outs of their class, they were limited because they were put in situations that you'd never encounter in a raid. They're good, but I'd say 80% rather than 90%.-

[Tyrean]

Some things you didn't think of:

1. They've changed the resilience bonus to be slightly higher. (aware of this but all it does is change the damage reduction a bit, not the point of the gear comparison)
2. PvE players can get both PvP trinkets for the resilience bonus within two weeks. (yup, but will they be bothering or using their OP PvE trinkets?)
3. 574 item level is not the max by far. Legendary cloak alone is 608, which will increase the average item level by a lot. (I set 574 because that is normal heroic with double upgrade. You are more likely to run into this raider on a constant basis than a full warforged raider)
4. Warforged Heroic items. They can be upgraded to item level 580. So if you meet a BiS heroic PvE player, they'll be around 582 item level, except for the trinkets. (and these palyers are extremely rare. Yeah, they outgear us and even at 550 will still outgear us. Who cares though? Most servers have maybe 1-3 guilds with players in this gear level and even fewer of them that care about world pvp.)
5. Prideful gear will be item level 550, not 540. (all I had access to number wise was 540. I would assume you can make an educated guess, as I did in my post, that PvP gear will be competitive and not a total loser like it is now)
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Replies in red.

[Prag]

We are far enough into the tier that a LOT of people are starting to clear Heroics despite their actually being generally mediocre. Plenty of BiS Heroic items can be found on the easy Heroic bosses and weapons/trinkets are a pretty strong source of their damage. Rogues with AoC and 2x Fists from Protectors are still going to gib you.

I believe a lot of Heroic raiders are excellent at all aspects of the game. I have no problem with them kicking my ass, but that shouldn't excuse them from using PvP gear to do it.

Grinding out Arenas for 2 months should give you an advantage. If not, at the very least it shouldn't leave you saying "Man, I should have spent those 2 months PvEing so I could PvP."

[Deleted]

You're even more dead if this is on Timeless Isle and they have Chi'Ji/Book of Ages/Nutrients/Flask and/or Crystal of Insanity/party buffs/etc.

If it is TI, I'm going to be invulnerable for up to a full minute if I get attacked from that invulnerability trinket you loot from that goblin warlock near paw'don village.

Then I'm going to summon 3 ghost pandas from the brews you get in the ghost panda village. Then I'm going to unload dps, and if the rogue is trying to farm bloody coins he can't use shrine buffs, book of ages ect, whereas I can. That's not even getting into all the other OP items you can farm.

If there are three of them, they are all going to be dead eventually. One is microwaved toast.

There's no excuse for getting farmed on TI, ever, even for low-geared players, just go prepared.

[Vokal]

with the resilience changes and the huge additional pvp power on the new Prideful gear, I have hopes that in every scenario the PvP gear will be best in slot for PvP

You will be disappointed.

[Verain]

P.S. Plus if you think that Heroic Raiders lack actual pvp ability you are in for a shocker. They might not be La crème de la crème of the pvp world, but they are on par or above 90%+ of the avenger pvper skill and class knowledge wise.

This is to me always something I see left out. Our raid team has always had at least 2-4 serious pvpers- 2200+ experience, arena master, even some glads in the past, something like that. But the rest of those folks are not like dummy derps, and many of the people making these claims and talking about "dragon killers" are 1600-1900 players- by no means bad players, but certainly not some towering league of elites. Heroic raids require a lot of skill, and always have- the skill sets aren't a total overlap with arena and RBGs, but neither are they like, orthogonal.

[Seditian]

Replies in red.

Although I admire your positive attitude, those (nearly) BiS raiders really aren't that rare on larger servers. Not to mention it will take PvPers about 2,5-3,5 months in order to get full prideful gear. That's 10+ SoO clears. That's a lot of opportunities for people to get extra slots filled with BiS gear and warforged gear.

But yeah, if we're talking about players who exclusively PvE, you won't have a problem against them, except for Rogues/Mages, because of their wide arsenal of stuns. However, if you're up against PvE players who PvP once in a while, even if it's at 1200 rating just to get points, they will have their trinket set and weapon set as well. Those kind of players will completely annihilate you, because you'll deal 60% extra damage, while they'll deal 30% extra damage. But, they still have 150-200k extra health, legendary meta gem/cloak procs and a lot higher damage stats.

[Tyrean]

I think that is true about raiders not being terrible at pvp, but I also think a lot of people have some sort of experience with a pvp player who comes into pve and fails. When we were raiding hyjal summit we took in a shaman healer applicant who was a gladiator at the time. He did not have a lot of pve experience, but he made the case that pve requires more situational awareness, etc. Long story short, he got laughed out of the guild after the first run through with him. (stood in fire, did not know how to raid heal, did not know CDs, etc)

They are totally different play styles and require a different set of not only game knowledge but also strategy. As a raider, I don't need to know what CDs a warlock has and when I need to be defensive/offensive but a pvper does. The switch side, a pvper does not need to know the mechanics of raid boss X in order to pvp. Sure, there is lots of bleed over, but those guys invest a lot of time in the game and as such I could argue deserve a little bit of a leg up. (of course I also subscribe to the old model of pvp gear in which if you did not raid, you lost)

I think the general consensus is that most players in WoW choose one style of play over the other with a little bit of cross over. I used to be a raider only who dabbled and enjoyed pvp. Now my time limitations make raiding a non starter and I focus on pvp with the occasional LFR or transmog run. I would bet the large majority of players fall into categories like that, and the amount of people that excel and have time for both are few...

- - - Updated - - -

Although I admire your positive attitude, those (nearly) BiS raiders really aren't that rare on larger servers. Not to mention it will take PvPers about 2,5-3,5 months in order to get full prideful gear. That's 10+ SoO clears. That's a lot of opportunities for people to get extra slots filled with BiS gear and warforged gear.

But yeah, if we're talking about players who exclusively PvE, you won't have a problem against them, except for Rogues/Mages, because of their wide arsenal of stuns. However, if you're up against PvE players who PvP once in a while, even if it's at 1200 rating just to get points, they will have their trinket set and weapon set as well. Those kind of players will completely annihilate you, because you'll deal 60% extra damage, while they'll deal 30% extra damage. But, they still have 150-200k extra health, legendary meta gem/cloak procs and a lot higher damage stats.

Oh yeah, I totally agree. I was just trying to come up with a baseline comparison that illustrated the sky was not falling. I am on Mal'Ganis US, and the timeless isle is riddled with heroic warforged raiders dicking around while waiting for raid. The censer farmers on my server are like raid mobs that do insane damage. People that say you can outplay them just have never faced these players. They open on you, their trinkets proc, they use all their CDs and if you don't have an immunity or some really reliable way to escape you just die before you can even dent their health. It is very unfun.

The worst case scenario is that heroic raider that also is a decent pvper, and they do exist. But those guys most likely will get their coins and stop doing world pvp. There is no incentive for them after that and there are better things to do with your time than kill fresh 90s with little to no chance of death. (granted there are people who probably raid specifically for this ability, but they are just garbage and you have to live with those types of players in any game)

[Raldazzar]

I have to be honest, but I find that the complete opposite.

PVP'rs often make decent raiders, because they are so movement focused so moving from fire etc is second nature. whereas in pvp alot of the time pve'rs don't understand the value of positioning and think you can stand there and turret somebody down. Nothing is easier then kiting/LOSing a pve player.

[Lulbalance]

P.S. Plus if you think that Heroic Raiders lack actual pvp ability you are in for a shocker. They might not be La crème de la crème of the pvp world, but they are on par or above 90%+ of the avenger pvper skill and class knowledge wise.

so they can push like 1900...that's basically what you said right there.

PvE'rs are garbage out of the rat league. you can get to a certain point with gear and knowing your dps rotation, whoooole other thing to have a feel for arena meta. if you're even trying to make that argument,... i don't know man.

skill is a broad term, personally the way i use the word - it includes instinct.

[Deleted]

I have to be honest, but I find that the complete opposite.

PVP'rs often make decent raiders, because they are so movement focused so moving from fire etc is second nature. whereas in pvp alot of the time pve'rs don't understand the value of positioning and think you can stand there and turret somebody down. Nothing is easier then kiting/LOSing a pve player.

This.

Someone in PVE gear will always stand in front of me when I'm ice blocking, rather than behind me, dragon blast + blink + rocket boots, and I'm away.

PVE teaches you to do the same thing all the time. It is completely useless for the situational mindset you need for pve.

In PVE the number of possible permutations in a given fight is pretty limited, and the correct decision obvious with practice. In PVP its infinite, a chess board with a billion squares.