Why is it that women can opt out of taking care of a child but men can't?

[Velaniz]

So are other humans, I'm not even allowed to take the heart from an actually dead patient if I need one without their consent. I'm not allowed to take a kidney from someone else if I need one without their consent. Why does their bodily autonomy outweigh my right to life?

No, the situations don't even begin to compare. In this situation, you are directly responsible for the fact of the other person's welfare being placed over your bodily autonomy. You had your chance to exercise it, but for reasons best known to yourself, decided not to act. Someone else isn't going to be punished for that. Much less killed.

[Deleted]

You're killing it for no other reason than convenience at this point.

I did say that you could induce birth as an alternative.

[Velaniz]

By this logic if you drive a car and are involved in a car accident that results in a situation wherein another person has a medical need to a kidney of yours or some of your blood perhaps then you could be compelled to provide these things for them even against your will. Correct?

Not quite. Comparison is poor. The risks of causing someone to require a kidney brought upon from me driving are too astronomically low. The risks of causing someone death from you having a third trimester abortion is astronomically high.

Some would say almost guaranteed. If I gave you a drink which I knew had a good chance of ruining one of your kidneys, and I knew you would be as such legally entitled to one of mine, then you would certainly get mine.

[dehotz]

The fact that we're discussing abortions of 6-8 month babies because 6 months wasn't long enough to make a decision for someone.

So what is the cut off for you, how long does she have to make the decision? Also is the idea that she knows the determining factor, there are cases where women don't know they're pregnant.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/...eps-through-it

[AeneasBK]

Excellent job not addressing the point I raised. What context could I be missing, please point it out.

The relationship between a foetus and its mother being somewhat different between you and the guy you want a kidney from. Did you really need that pointing out?

[Deleted]

I did say that you could induce birth as an alternative.

And you could of opt'd to abort it legally, at the specified time frame.

Yet you failed to, and now have a legally defined human awaiting the ideal time to be brought in.

Inducing a premature birth is risky and fraught with complications, you're holding another person hostage at this point; And for what reason?

Short of medical necessity, nothing suffices.

[Deleted]

And you could of opt'd to abort it legally, at the specified time frame.

Yet you failed to, and now have a legally defined human awaiting the ideal time to be brought in.

Inducing a premature birth is risky and fraught with complications, you're holding another person hostage at this point; And for what reason?

Short of medical necessity, nothing suffices.

I very much doubt that many women would actually get an abortion that late in pregnancy unless they really had to. It's rare enough that it happens close to the legal timeframe where they can do so freely in my country. It's even more rare that it happens in the timeframe where they are allowed an abortion if they get permission for it.

[dehotz]

Not quite. Comparison is poor. The risks of causing someone to require a kidney brought upon from me driving are too astronomically low. The risks of causing someone death from you having a third trimester abortion is astronomically high.

Some would say almost guaranteed. If I gave you a drink which I knew had a good chance of ruining one of your kidneys, and I knew you would be as such legally entitled to one of mine, then you would certainly get mine.

The risk of causing death to someone? I'm unclear, are you referring to the woman here or the fetus? So would abortion be justified if the man/woman in question had taken all the appropriate measures to attempt to avoid the pregnancy?

Also that just isn't the way the justice system works, doesn't matter if I poisoned you or not, you don't get to take a kidney from someone, the idea that you're arguing for it to work that way is surprising.

[pateuvasiliu]

I very much doubt that many women would actually get an abortion that late in pregnancy unless they really had to.

How so?

As long as it's legal, what's the moral difference between killing your child when he is a 2 month old fetus or a 7-8 month old?

[Deleted]

I very much doubt that many women would actually get an abortion that late in pregnancy unless they really had to.

Which is the exception made by many jurisdictions.

You however, never made that distinction before that post.

But i support late-term abortion should the mothers life be imperiled.

[Deleted]

How so?

Because the vast majority of abortions are performed before week 9, very few are performed the last week where it is allowed freely and the abortions that take place in the time where you currently have to obtain permission for an abortion are done because there are defects on the fetus or the mothers health is at risk. In reality I don't think there would be much of a difference compared to today even if abortion was legal up until birth, in my country at least.

[Laraven]

Are you serious or trolling? I can do that too, it doesn't mean anything.

The only reason the failure rate is so high (up to 25%) is because usually only women looking to get pregnant monitor their basal body temperature and cervical mucus closely enough. In women that do monitor everything adequately it only has a 10% failure rate.

The point I was trying to make, however, is that a woman knowingly having intercourse during her ovulation window, or not even bothering to track it, is putting herself at an additional and unnecessary risk of getting pregnant. Just because a woman ignores a tool at her disposal doesn't prevent her from being more culpable in her getting pregnant. The man is simply not privy to the same information as the woman and cannot be held equally liable for her failure to use it.


It's "her body, her choice" as you yourself stated. Those "other options" are decisions made unilaterally by the woman, making the results of those decisions her sole responsibility.

Oh my. Just stop. Most women don't even have normal cycles to start with. And if you think women spend time taking our temperatures and monitoring our cervical mucus you're not being very realistic. This is just too much. I will forget you suggested such a silly thing if you stop trying to say it is a liable method for birth control, or even a realistic tool to go by. Because it's not, never was and never will be.

And why must a women make ANY decisions once she becomes pregnant? She shouldn't have to. And if she simply does nothing, then what? The man gets to "get off" on any responsibility? Love how you guys think. Please form a group together. Ware colored bracelets or tattoo so we can stay clear of you from the start.

Ohh damn Jessica, I was so drunk last night, I think I slept with a "blue bracelet".

How could you Chrissy? Better get the morning after pill, you know he ain't gonna be around.

[AeneasBK]

By this logic if you drive a car and are involved in a car accident that results in a situation wherein another person has a medical need to a kidney of yours or some of your blood perhaps then you could be compelled to provide these things for them even against your will. Correct?

See now *that* was less derp. Much more interesting question than the one going on currently, too I wouldn't compare the two situations though; analogies to pregnancy are so very often innaccurate. I'd be curious what the law currently states about damages paid to vicitms of car accidents.

In the rather unique situation regarding the *kidney* being required, I imagine the decision would be made before if got to a court (kidneys are kinda important) but if it did, would definately make an interesting case. My initial opinion would be that in a case where Driver A is proven to be driving recklessly, crashes into Driver B in such a way as to not cause any harm to himself; but to impale Driver Bs left kidney so he survives, but is in need of a second kidney or dialysis treatment for the rest of his life, it wouldn't be "unfair" to take the kidney from Driver A, and let HIM suffer the dialysis for the rest of his life... If it was blood I wouldn't even see it as a question, give blood, jobs done. So yeah, interesting question

Not sure we can apply the same laws to the foetus/mother relationship though. They aren't similar enough.

[pateuvasiliu]

And if she simply does nothing, then what? The man gets to "get off" on any responsibility? Love how you guys think.

Why should a man suffer for the inaction of another person?

[Deleted]

Why should a man suffer for the inaction of another person?

Why should a child suffer for the greed of another person?

Which is the exception made by many jurisdictions.

You however, never made that distinction before that post.

But i support late-term abortion should the mothers life be imperiled.

There's been cases where women have suffered because of paperwork due to the limits. That's what I want to prevent.

[Requiem4aDr3am]

Short answer: Because men are men and women are men sans reason and accountability.

[badzerath]

Oh my. Just stop. Most women don't even have normal cycles to start with. And if you think women spend time taking our temperatures and monitoring our cervical mucus you're not being very realistic. This is just too much. I will forget you suggested such a silly thing if you stop trying to say it is a liable method for birth control, or even a realistic tool to go by. Because it's not, never was and never will be.

And why must a women make ANY decisions once she becomes pregnant? She shouldn't have to. And if she simply does nothing, then what? The man gets to "get off" on any responsibility? Love how you guys think. Please form a group together. Ware colored bracelets or tattoo so we can stay clear of you from the start.

Ohh damn Jessica, I was so drunk last night, I think I slept with a "blue bracelet".

How could you Chrissy? Better get the morning after pill, you know he ain't gonna be around.

So your argument is responsibility is hard, and that he expects too much from women when it comes to actually controlling their bodies.

Geez after all that feminism nonsense I hear you just completely shot it down.

[Deleted]

There's been cases where women have suffered because of paperwork due to the limits. That's what I want to prevent.

Paperwork due to limits?

I'm not sure i understand, do you mean, delayed due to processing the abortion?

And if so, exceptions are commonly made, we're talking of second trimester abortions at the most here; Most jurisdictions allow that, especially so in the U.K.

But if you find that's not the case in certain areas, i support that notion.

Detailing when the fetus meets the criteria (However that's defined) is a difficult task, but my views are within the second trimester; Anything later than that is murky bar medical necessity, or the infant being unable to survive.

[Llunai]

After a long debate in real life regarding this issue, I have decided to change my stance on the issue. I no longer believe that any man (or woman) has a right to not be responsible for an already born child (I am still pro-choice). No more child support, but men have to take care of their kids every other week (assuming that there is nothing wrong with them or they are not criminals).


It's a child, not a wallet.


NOTE: Changing my views does not mean I flip flop, it means I actually think for myself... times and times against.

You can "opt out" by choosing not to have sex.

[Deleted]

Paperwork due to limits?

I'm not sure i understand, do you mean, delayed due to processing the abortion?

Waiting for a decision made by someone else than the woman. Should've probably said that from the beginning. She shouldn't have to wait for someone else to decide. I very much doubt a woman would perform an abortion on a fully healthy baby if she's in no danger, it's rare that abortions even happens in the last week where it's allowed freely. It's even more rare that abortions happens in the additional time limit where you have to obtain permission for an abortion and then it's mostly because of risk to the mothers health or defects on the fetus.

It would just make the process faster instead of delaying it until someone else has made a decision.