6.0 Paladin Discussion and Speculation (All Specs)

[Zabannith]

Awesome I'll put that on the OP thx for the find

[Talen]

Blizzard likes a bit of randomness so lets remove seals as "stances" and tie it to Judgements

I'd keep them as stances but how to work them as such....

Maybe soemthign like...

SoT - Extra Holy damage.
SoR - Self heal plus Righteous Fury
SoL - 5% healing increase

EJL

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Awesome I'll put that on the OP thx for the find

Hardly difficult to find, given that it was me that was talking to him

[Lyese]

Lay on Hands is currently exempted from the percentage-based heal "nerf" because of its super long cooldown and "once per fight" usage.

Huh, I thought they wanted to move away from "uber-cds." I suppose it's not only balanced by its cd but its Forebearance lockout, as well. Still, I wonder why the longer cds like Reincarnate, Army of the Dead, Lay on Hands, etc. aren't either being retuned or removed.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Huh, I thought they wanted to move away from "uber-cds." I suppose it's not only balanced by its cd but its Forebearance lockout, as well. Still, I wonder why the longer cds like Reincarnate, Army of the Dead, Lay on Hands, etc. aren't either being retuned or removed.

Those aren't necessarily raid wide cooldowns.

[Lyese]

I seem to recall reading a post a few years ago about how they pruned down long cd abilities because they didn't want classes to be reliant on them for dps/healing/whatever. This is alleviated with the current paradigm of boss encounters resetting cds on wipe, but I wonder if that design is still relevant. Alas, after a while of searching, I can't find the post, so I'm not sure if that was ever said.

EDIT: Found it! From 2009.

Hybrid and base class abilities
We agree with Communism. We often give classes situational spells as base class abilities rather than as talented abilities for the same reason -- you're really only out a little gold by learning the ability. This is particularly a problem for hybrids. Nearly every rogue can find a use for Fan of Knives. Balance and Feral druids have much less use for Nourish. Heroic Throw is clearly a tanking tool.

On the one hand, yeah it's cool if a hybrid class can make use of their ability regardless of role. However some of our balance problems currently are caused by hybrids being able to do too many things to well with the same spec. If the tool is good for the role that's intended to use it, there's a good chance it's going to be too good for the other roles. That's why we often prop abilities up with spec-specific talents. One of the problems with the Holy paladin tree is it doesn't grant enough healing focus for investing in the tree. At the same time, paladins can heal very well so it's not as simple as just going into the deep tree and smearing a bunch of +healing effects on existing talents everywhere. (Source)

Paladin
Lay of Hands
We don't think "Sure I can heal myself for 25,000+ health as a dps spec or 50,000+ health as a tank, but not very often," is balanced. Abilities can be unbalanced even if overall a character is not. This isn't a non-issue just because it doesn't affect Arenas. Also, it doesn't mean paladins are being singled out for one-vs-one duel balance (though I'm sure I'm going to be reading that for months to come).

If we gave warriors (especially Prot warriors) an ability to cause 50,000 damage in one hit with no preparation on a 90-minute cooldown, most reasonable players would call that a balance problem. The long cooldown doesn't save it. Beyond some point you can't balance a very powerful ability just by increasing the cooldown.

In general, we've been moving away from long cooldowns anyway.

(Source: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...hp?f=2&t=26600)

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I seem to recall reading a post a few years ago about how they pruned down long cd abilities because they didn't want classes to be reliant on them for dps/healing/whatever. This is alleviated with the current paradigm of boss encounters resetting cds on wipe, but I wonder if that design is still relevant. Alas, after a while of searching, I can't find the post, so I'm not sure if that was ever said.

EDIT: Found it! From 2009.


(Source: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...hp?f=2&t=26600)

Paladins aren't reliant on Lay on Hands to heal. It is the button you want to never have to press. It is also a lot less important as a tank with 5xBoG WoG/EF healing you for 80+% health potentially every 15-20 seconds.

[Zabannith]

updating OP with new infos , keep checking

[Enosh]

you know, I get the whole dps CDs trimming yada yada
but guardian and wings were 2 of the most flashy and awesome looking abilities in the game, sad to see that you only get access to one of them now

well guess they can always put in some minor glyph

[Jokubas]

you know, I get the whole dps CDs trimming yada yada
but guardian and wings were 2 of the most flashy and awesome looking abilities in the game, sad to see that you only get access to one of them now

well guess they can always put in some minor glyph

Yeah, overall, I definitely get most of the changes. I understand the concept of streamlining, and generally support it. I do have some critiques (it feels like utility was handicapped across the board, though I feel Paladins already got the worst of that in Cataclysm), but what bothers me most is when the cool stuff gets trimmed. I know Blizzard cares about fun (they made a post on Hearthstone about how the perception of fun is often more important to them than statistical balance), so I'm saying this hoping they'll see it.

Guardian of Ancient Kings may have been an awkward ability for the other specs, but come on... you get to summon a cool angel companion. Can that visual at least just proc off something else for the other specs, even if it isn't technically doing anything on its own?

[drakonblayde]

Inquisition being removed for Ret is... interesting. I wonder if they're going to balance the abilities so that it's not necessary anymore, or just bake it in. If they do, then it'll be a relatively nice quality of life improvement, not having to worry about Inquisition upkeep is not a bad thing.

If they're just yanking it and no compensation, then I'll be very unhappy
l

[Solo mish]

avenging wrath can only be used by rets now..... well that's shit

[Obsession]

Inquisition being removed for Ret is... interesting. I wonder if they're going to balance the abilities so that it's not necessary anymore, or just bake it in. If they do, then it'll be a relatively nice quality of life improvement, not having to worry about Inquisition upkeep is not a bad thing.

If they're just yanking it and no compensation, then I'll be very unhappy
l

It's simple, increase all damage by 30%

[Dremall]

It's simple, increase all damage by 30%

Not that simple given that Inquisition increases holy damage by 30%. What our biggest strength is/was the synergy between Inquisiiton and our Mastery. The loss of Inquisition really hurts more than Guardian of Ancient Kings.

What I will say is that it looks like they're trying to move us further away from our burst dps, to a more sustained dps.

[Farabee]

Inquisition being removed for Ret is... interesting. I wonder if they're going to balance the abilities so that it's not necessary anymore, or just bake it in. If they do, then it'll be a relatively nice quality of life improvement, not having to worry about Inquisition upkeep is not a bad thing.

If they're just yanking it and no compensation, then I'll be very unhappy
l

Yeah, while I was really happy to read that at first I'm a little worried now about our already-lackluster damage output. If they give us a nice passive boost, that'll be great. Haste will still continue to be our god stat no matter what.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

It's simple, increase all damage by 30%

You don't understand at all, 30% increased holy damage means mastery is 30% stronger which makes mastery rating 30% better SCALING.
Remove that and they'll have to increase how mastery scales by a lot.
Also 10% crit shouldn't be shrugged off completely, it's not a big deal but still a loss.
Also 30% to all abilities? No, not all of our abilities deal holy damage.
Also 30% less holy damage done makes spreading Censure less powerful.

[Argos]

Final Verdict (Retribution) - Empowers your weapon with holy energy, and performs a devastating strike, dealing 210% weapon damage as Holy. Replaces Templar's Verdict. 3 Holy Power, 10 yd range, Instant, Requires Melee Weapon

Its nice that it no longer requires melee range.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Yeah that makes no difference what so ever, rest of our abilities still require melee range (except judgement, exorcism and HoW obviously)

[Xs]

Yeah that makes no difference what so ever, rest of our abilities still require melee range (except judgement, exorcism and HoW obviously)

Makes a nice difference in not messing with the rotation while moving.

[nightfalls]

Yeah that makes no difference what so ever, rest of our abilities still require melee range (except judgement, exorcism and HoW obviously)

There is a ton of QoL, you can not waste HP while at range and still judging/exorcism casting. But it is more QoL than direct raid gain for sure. It can probably replace Harsh Words with good tuning.