I hate going second!

[Deleted]

Yes but after your preparation turn, when both players place one minion on the table, then someone is still going to place the second minion first, right? Which means that someone is going to use his first minion to kill the opponent's first minion, which leaves the board with Player A's second minion and Player B with nothing. How does your solution change anything?

The chance of that is smaller, since you get only so much 1 costers in your first hand.

[Calzaeth]

The chance of that is smaller, since you get only so much 1 costers in your first hand.

Smaller than the 3% advantage of going first? I would love to see your numbers on this, mate.

[Raiju]

The chance of that is smaller, since you get only so much 1 costers in your first hand.

Just an example image. Standard decks ranging from rush to aggro to beatdown to midgame will run somewhere around there. Only really late game control decks have a later curve.

[Deleted]

Smaller than the 3% advantage of going first? I would love to see your numbers on this, mate.

It is smaller and this is what is important. Yea, it might be the same turd, but its a bit polished.

[Raiju]

It is smaller and this is what is important. Yea, it might be the same turd, but its a bit polished.

If 1/3 of your deck is 2 cost or lower, and you had up to 8 cards (3x2 + 2 draws) to make sure you got some good starter cards, you have to be pretty unlucky to not get a second low cost.

[Deleted]

If 1/3 of your deck is 2 cost or lower, and you had up to 8 cards (3x2 + 2 draws) to make sure you got some good starter cards, you have to be pretty unlucky to not get a second low cost.

The prep turn doesnt have a draw phase, plus the turn after the prep turn is 1 mana turn again. So you must get two 1 cost minions in 4 cards. Which, i might add, considering you have spells and other, more costly minions, should be a really lucky occurance, just to have the upper hand on your second turn.

As it is now, the chance to have the upper hand on your first turn is a lot higher than that, as you need one 1 cost minion in 4 cards.

[Raiju]

The prep turn doesnt have a draw phase, plus the turn after the prep turn is 1 mana turn again. So you must get two 1 cost minions in 4 cards.

Are we talking about hearthstone?

Just played a game to make sure I wasn't crazy:

Enemy goes first, he draws a card on first turn up to 4 and plays a 1 cost minion.

Second turn he draws again, has 2 mana.

[vizzle]

The prep turn doesnt have a draw phase, plus the turn after the prep turn is 1 mana turn again. So you must get two 1 cost minions in 4 cards. Which, i might add, considering you have spells and other, more costly minions, should be a really lucky occurance, just to have the upper hand on your second turn.

As it is now, the chance to have the upper hand on your first turn is a lot higher than that.

Your solution solves absolutely nothing. So let's say both players only get 1 cost cards each. And then what? They trade, or they don't, but EVENTUALLY, by the second turn (or third turn or fourth turn or fifth turn), someone is going to draw the second minion first because that someone is going to have 1 more mana crystal. Someone will always go first and you can't solve this by putting cards on the board before the game starts. I don't see why you think that fixes anything.

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Are we talking about hearthstone?

Just played a game to make sure I wasn't crazy:

Enemy goes first, he draws a card on first turn up to 4 and plays a 1 cost minion.

Second turn he draws again, has 2 mana.

He's talking about his own proposed solution in the OP, not something in the actual game.

[PBitt]

I'd much rather go second, that extra card is a pretty nice bonus. Also, the first player should be putting down better cards first...so it should be the second player that is generally countering the first, not the other way around.

Either way, you play this game enough and you'll be playing first about half the time and second the other half. So, not sure what the big deal is.

[apepi]

3 percent, based on a 50/50 chance. That means that even if the players are equally skilled, and the decks are perfect counter/counter-counters to each other, the player with 53% chance can STILL be screwed by luck of the draw.

So, yes. 3% are pretty damn insignificant.

Yes but 3% is wide enough to swing the other way with the margin of error.

[Eon Drache]

I hate going first against a rogue. The Coin can really give them a headstart in getting a combo off. Any other time I dont mind first or second, but I prefer 2nd as I feel it helps since my deck is mostly mid-late game and control based.

[Deleted]

Your solution solves absolutely nothing. So let's say both players only get 1 cost cards each. And then what? They trade, or they don't, but EVENTUALLY, by the second turn (or third turn or fourth turn or fifth turn), someone is going to draw the second minion first because that someone is going to have 1 more mana crystal. Someone will always go first and you can't solve this by putting cards on the board before the game starts. I don't see why you think that fixes anything.

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He's talking about his own proposed solution in the OP, not something in the actual game.

My solution might be crappy indeed, but I still think going second when you are NOT a rogue or uber-lucky with the starting draw is a big disadvantage.

[kaiadam]

The linked stats were from an era of constructed where there was no rank system other than "3 star masters for everyone!". With the ladder putting placing everything under a more discerning microscope - much like the introduction of arena in wow immediately made clear strengths and weaknesses - my suspicion is that the going first advantage is at least 10%, maybe 15%. Like, your chances of winning are likely 57% if you go first.

[Fluorescent0]

Actually it's 6%, since it would be a 53/47 split.

And no, that's not insignificant. How do you even reason that?

You know that's the same imbalance chess has right? Heck, mostly lower.

[Servasus]

"The Coin" counts as a spell card and therefor procs abilities on cards that proc when spells are played, such as recieving a Fireball Spell card whenever you use a spell card while Archmage Antonidas is in play.

Second is seriously MUCH better than going first, and the reason I gave above isn't even the tip of the iceberg.

[namelessone]

3% is not exactly insignificant for a game that is supposed to be balanced, and even 1,3% more means a slight imbalance. The Coin seems to me like a temporary fix untill a better solution to give both players an equal start is found.

3% based on the game that gives you RANDOM STARTING HAND is completely insignificant. If both players started with pre-built hands, MAYBE it would matter, but otherwise, the randomness of first draw would completely cloud the 3% disadvantage.

[Panquake]

Depends on my deck tbh, sometimes I prefer to go first and other decks I prefer to go second.

[Deldavala]

Well going first has a small advantage over going 2nd. It still closer than Chess which I would say is a good measure.

[Kisho]

You cant plan anything because when you play it you get countered on the next turn, its like trying to put your hand on a cat's paw, the cat will allways put its paw on top of your hand. It's called the upper paw.

An analogy about cats is supposed to convince people? Really? What has that got to do with anything?

Simply put, the statistics show a near 50/50 ratio of wins between going first and going second. On a personal note, I am able to win many games when I go second or when I go first. I don't notice a significant difference.

Either you're suffering from confirmation bias or you just need to play better. Going second isn't the disadvantage you claim it to be, or even a disadvantage at all.

[Sarevokcz]

3% based on the game that gives you RANDOM STARTING HAND is completely insignificant. If both players started with pre-built hands, MAYBE it would matter, but otherwise, the randomness of first draw would completely cloud the 3% disadvantage.

its not 3% disadvantage, its actually alot wider gap, 53/47 is 1,127smth, going first wins almost 13% more games on average than going second. and that is already diminished by rogue, which doesnt suffer that much, Im pretty sure most other classes have it even worse.