1. #541
    I just wanna butt in with, "I agree with the general sentiment here but don't have anything in particular to add," for the sake of voices being heard and all that. Well, okay, maybe some minor things to add. Removal of SooM sounds interesting. I wish Statue were gone. I hope they didn't keep it just for that Lv100 talent that breathes mist toward you as a split-healing cooldown. With the 30 second cooldown on placing the statue, that sounds annoying to use. Plus, it involves the statue, which I still hate because it feels like button bloat. I'm also EXTREMELY disappointed that the range of Eminence hasn't increased from 20yd.

  2. #542
    I find myself confused that MW inherited/currently inheriting so many mechanics that had been abolished or altered over the years. Like hand me downs from the other healers they never really liked:

    -The gift of the serpent orb mechanic is very reminiscent of Light Well from back in classic in that the healer has no true control over its healing. Pretty decent if used... but yeah "click the well please"

    -The current lvl100 talent Breath of the Serpent is pretty much a green Cataclysm-era Light of Dawn (now with more positioning frustration) as you have to do a kind of inverse skillshot after hopefully placing your statue well and no bad will land on the raid forcing them to move out of your carefully calculated trajectory.

    -The Jade Serpent Statue itself seems like the took one of the pre 5.04 shaman totems, painted it green and slapped it into the monks kit. It suffers all the drawbacks of why they redid the totem system in the first place while contributing very little (and that little bit being more uncontrolled healing) to the overall quality of the MW spec.

    I mean would it really be so bad to double SooM's healing, increase Eminence to 50% damage done (current live eminence), and increase Eminence's effect area to 40 yards vice 20? Then the statue could be made into a healing cooldown or something more interesting perhaps.

    Of course just my opinion, but hopefully good feed back is made during beta that is actually taken.

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by Musubi View Post
    I mean would it really be so bad to double SooM's healing, increase Eminence to 50% damage done (current live eminence), and increase Eminence's effect area to 40 yards vice 20? Then the statue could be made into a healing cooldown or something more interesting perhaps.

    Of course just my opinion, but hopefully good feed back is made during beta that is actually taken.
    for what it's worth, eminence is actually getting boosted to 70% damage done, 35% from the crane stance and 35% from statue while in crane stance.

  4. #544
    You guys now also get RSK.

  5. #545
    holy shit i might be able to quest as a MW now.

    fuck yes group 100 mobs go to town with RSK + SCK + eminence

  6. #546
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Infective View Post
    for what it's worth, eminence is actually getting boosted to 70% damage done, 35% from the crane stance and 35% from statue while in crane stance.
    You're forgetting part of the equation, 1.5 second GCD my friend.

  7. #547
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    And it will be shitty on fights that require spreading thanks to 2 times 20yd range circles instead of one 40yd.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    You're forgetting part of the equation, 1.5 second GCD my friend.
    oh i know, im not claiming its going to be a throughput buff or anything, just that the raw percentage is actually higher than what he was asking it to be.

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infective View Post
    for what it's worth, eminence is actually getting boosted to 70% damage done, 35% from the crane stance and 35% from statue while in crane stance.
    Correct. But you can't keep up actual healing like ReM during Crane and may see other discouragement (eg, I'm speculating no Mana Tea during Crane), so effectively you're doing much less, and @CT / entire dev team is utterly hellbent on ensuring that quickly swapping between Serpent and Crane is untenable gameplay, openly threatening to beat the nerf stick as hard as necessary until we reserve Fistweaving for braindead patches of each boss.

    So, yes, more Eminence literally, but probably less Fistweaving / FW effectiveness practically-speaking.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Musubi View Post
    I mean would it really be so bad to double SooM's healing, increase Eminence to 50% damage done (current live eminence)
    Remember that current Live eminence is 25% you + 25% statue, so seeing 35% Eminence in WoD patch notes is actually a buff to raw Emanating heals (since we still have the Serpent Statue duplicating Eminence heals).

    (even though Crane is the FW stance in WoD and Serpent Stance does not cause Eminence, the Serpent effigy still causes Eminence)

    (but hey w/e right welcome to WoD!)

  10. #550
    Deleted
    Pro tip, we lose the SotWS modifier

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Pro tip, we lose the SotWS modifier
    So instead of 120% of 50% of our damage we get 100% of 70% of our damage? Ignoring all other factors that's still 60% versus 70% which is a raw buff. Obviously other factors are going to make FW less effective but in pure terms of "how much of my damage is converting to healing" it's a larger percentage.

    Again, only brought up because someone asked for 50% when it's going to be higher than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gragagrogog View Post
    And it will be shitty on fights that require spreading thanks to 2 times 20yd range circles instead of one 40yd.
    So...like live then? Yeah, we all hate the statue.
    Last edited by Infective; 2014-04-19 at 12:33 AM.

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infective View Post
    So...like live then? Yeah, we all hate the statue.
    I don't hate it. I can be pretty useful hinding under it while trying to cap a flag in pvp. Besides that, not really much use.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    I don't hate it. I can be pretty useful hinding under it while trying to cap a flag in pvp. Besides that, not really much use.
    lol touché

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by Infective View Post
    So instead of 120% of 50% of our damage we get 100% of 70% of our damage? Ignoring all other factors that's still 60% versus 70% which is a raw buff. Obviously other factors are going to make FW less effective but in pure terms of "how much of my damage is converting to healing" it's a larger percentage.

    Again, only brought up because someone asked for 50% when it's going to be higher than that.

    So...like live then? Yeah, we all hate the statue.
    Also should be noted that all heals in general were buffed by around 50%, in comparison to what dev's did to "the general heal", WoD's 70% would have to be comparable to 90% of current for it to be similar. That being said, the kit is rather different in WoD than now, so raw numbers isnt particularly telling.

  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infective View Post
    So...like live then? Yeah, we all hate the statue.
    Why they didn't change eminence range is beyond me. 2 20yd circles have half the area coverage of one 40yd circle, asuming the monk ones doesn't overlap. And in fights where ranged are spread arround boss you will cover only melees, tank and 3-4 ranged with the statue(which is less than 50% of the raid), and in case you need to heal just one ranged, it's halved. There is so many effective ways of healing melee... With the same range it is gonna be useless in fight where we could actualy craneweave if it could effectively heal ranged.

  16. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astraios View Post
    That being said, the kit is rather different in WoD than now, so raw numbers isnt particularly telling.
    Actually, yeah, pretty much this is spot-on. Simply comparing % Eminence between 5.4 and WoD is probably a huge and misleading waste of energy without factoring in all the other changes.

    As an aside, just to reorient my mind — can someone summarize what the expected purpose of FW is in WoD? My problem with all the on-paper speculation ("WELL, IF YOU DON'T NEED FULL HEALING FOR 30 SECONDS IT'S MORE DPS!") is that this is a world where other healers exist, right? So either everything works fine without this ability (eg, a no-MW raid group) or everyone else is penalized for not having FW/Atone (MW/Disc stacking or cherry-cruiting) or everyone is expected to be able to do this (Innervate → Wrath spam, etc).

    Like, I mean... if you just tripped and deleted Crane Stance would anyone seriously notice? Or is it just there as a hand-waving concession to the MoP design?

    Assuming fights are designed to support breathing spaces where you can switch around, I'm curious how swapping to 50/50 Healer/DPS mode can be a special perk of MW without being either useless, or unfair to other heals.

  17. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Actually, yeah, pretty much this is spot-on. Simply comparing % Eminence between 5.4 and WoD is probably a huge and misleading waste of energy without factoring in all the other changes.

    As an aside, just to reorient my mind — can someone summarize what the expected purpose of FW is in WoD? My problem with all the on-paper speculation ("WELL, IF YOU DON'T NEED FULL HEALING FOR 30 SECONDS IT'S MORE DPS!") is that this is a world where other healers exist, right? So either everything works fine without this ability (eg, a no-MW raid group) or everyone else is penalized for not having FW/Atone (MW/Disc stacking or cherry-cruiting) or everyone is expected to be able to do this (Innervate → Wrath spam, etc).

    Like, I mean... if you just tripped and deleted Crane Stance would anyone seriously notice? Or is it just there as a hand-waving concession to the MoP design?

    Assuming fights are designed to support breathing spaces where you can switch around, I'm curious how swapping to 50/50 Healer/DPS mode can be a special perk of MW without being either useless, or unfair to other heals.
    When I tweeted Celestalon about dark chi, He said "That would encourage mixing them, which is the opposite of what we want.". They really don't want to mix our ability to do damage while healing.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Actually, yeah, pretty much this is spot-on. Simply comparing % Eminence between 5.4 and WoD is probably a huge and misleading waste of energy without factoring in all the other changes.

    As an aside, just to reorient my mind — can someone summarize what the expected purpose of FW is in WoD? My problem with all the on-paper speculation ("WELL, IF YOU DON'T NEED FULL HEALING FOR 30 SECONDS IT'S MORE DPS!") is that this is a world where other healers exist, right? So either everything works fine without this ability (eg, a no-MW raid group) or everyone else is penalized for not having FW/Atone (MW/Disc stacking or cherry-cruiting) or everyone is expected to be able to do this (Innervate → Wrath spam, etc).

    Like, I mean... if you just tripped and deleted Crane Stance would anyone seriously notice? Or is it just there as a hand-waving concession to the MoP design?

    Assuming fights are designed to support breathing spaces where you can switch around, I'm curious how swapping to 50/50 Healer/DPS mode can be a special perk of MW without being either useless, or unfair to other heals.
    I assume it'd have the same impact as if you tripped and deleted Holy Priests Chastise Chakra.. ie no one would care.
    Well, that is if anyone still plays Holy.

    I just can't wrap my head around why Mistweaver needs to be changed this dramatically, why not just alter the numbers to bring us in line? Is the spec this broken?
    I'm genuinely confused.

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Actually, yeah, pretty much this is spot-on. Simply comparing % Eminence between 5.4 and WoD is probably a huge and misleading waste of energy without factoring in all the other changes.

    As an aside, just to reorient my mind — can someone summarize what the expected purpose of FW is in WoD? My problem with all the on-paper speculation ("WELL, IF YOU DON'T NEED FULL HEALING FOR 30 SECONDS IT'S MORE DPS!") is that this is a world where other healers exist, right? So either everything works fine without this ability (eg, a no-MW raid group) or everyone else is penalized for not having FW/Atone (MW/Disc stacking or cherry-cruiting) or everyone is expected to be able to do this (Innervate → Wrath spam, etc).

    Like, I mean... if you just tripped and deleted Crane Stance would anyone seriously notice? Or is it just there as a hand-waving concession to the MoP design?

    Assuming fights are designed to support breathing spaces where you can switch around, I'm curious how swapping to 50/50 Healer/DPS mode can be a special perk of MW without being either useless, or unfair to other heals.
    Some examples from SoO where you could dip into Crane Stance for damage without wiping the raid:

    Entire Immereus solidified phase, very little healing, extra damage gets it over with faster, there's enough time to start using ReM when he splits before the oozes start hitting the middle.

    Protectors, basically everything that isn't Desperate Measures.

    Sha of Pride from 5 seconds after Swelling Pride to ~20 seconds before it.

    Iron Juggernaut non-siege mode (seriously you could have literally half of your healers not heal and no one would even notice until Siege Mode)

    Dark Shamans before 50% (when Ashen Meteor starts)

    Nazgrim Berserker Stance (low chance of War Song happening, takes extra damage = extra healing)

    Spoils after large crate mobs are taken out

    Thok CJL during chase phase

    Siegecrafter between when a Shredder dies and when the next one spawns

    Paragons before Iyyokuk lands

    Garrosh between Whirling Corruption.


    Every fight except Norushen, Galakras, and Malkorok has a feasible window where you could get some extra damage in and let the other healers take care of it (assuming of course you're not one of the zealots that cares about topping healing meters).

    Now for the "why is this not grossly overpowered?" part. Every healer is getting a way to do some damage and get some mana back, MW included. Crane stance will burn mana, just as the other healers will have to burn mana to make up for you not using your cheap ReM and Soothing healing. 20 man raids are supposed to have 5 healers, and there are only 5 healing classes. It's okay because you would only ever want one or two healers that can do this (MW and Disc). Shamans have AV, Paladins have Hands, but MW generally has lackluster utility and cooldowns.

    Think of it like a Warlock gateway or a Death Grip. It's a cool thing that only MWs can do, so you probably want one in your raid. There are 5 healing spots for 5 healing classes, much like the 13 DPS spots for 7 melee DPS classes and 6 ranged DPS classes (I literally just now realized that Blizzard did this, and my mind is completely blown). Every role that every class can do has a reason for you to say "I want one of those."

  20. #560
    Deleted
    You can't CJL for ranged DPS in WoD. Too expensive with no ranged dump.

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