Let me get this straight. Classes aren't viable end-game? Only Jobs?

[Willias]

In FF14's original design, there was more reason to bring a class instead of a job to certain high level dungeons. For example, the Gladiator ability Rampart (I think?) was a cross-class ability, and if I remember right there was a fight where having multiple people with that ability was very important. Thing is, not all players liked feeling forced to level up multiple classes to be able to handle certain encounters. So when they redesigned everything for FF14's re-release, they made more abilities class specific so that there weren't any class ability combinations that could, at any point, do better than jobs.

[zito]

In FF14's original design, there was more reason to bring a class instead of a job to certain high level dungeons. For example, the Gladiator ability Rampart (I think?) was a cross-class ability, and if I remember right there was a fight where having multiple people with that ability was very important. Thing is, not all players liked feeling forced to level up multiple classes to be able to handle certain encounters. So when they redesigned everything for FF14's re-release, they made more abilities class specific so that there weren't any class ability combinations that could, at any point, do better than jobs.

And they shouldn't. Classes shouldn't excel better at a specific role over a Job which was designed for a specific role because classes were not designed with a role in mind. The classic hybrid tax.

[RoninaThorstone]

Why let you level the base class to 50 then?

Because it allows them to add more jobs without adding new classes via the soul stones.

[SodiumChloride]

Can you not equip a class weapon anywhere? No? Then you are not constricted to a role.

Not sure if you really don't get what I mean or are just feigning ignorance.

Why should a class/job's role be narrowly defined as tank, healer and DPS, where you can't do anything else in that specific class/job?

The point of Cross-Actions is to give flexibility no? It provides you with abilities from other classes to "round out" your skill set.

The big question is, if you are only going to let jobs (with very limited Cross-Action slots) be viable - thanks to gear and stats bonuses - why bother with the whole charade? Just remove the Cross-Actions.

[zito]

Not sure if you really don't get what I mean or are just feigning ignorance.

Why should a class/job's role be narrowly defined as tank, healer and DPS, where you can't do anything else in that specific class/job?

The point of Cross-Actions is to give flexibility no? It provides you with abilities from other classes to "round out" your skill set.

The big question is, if you are only going to let jobs (with very limited Cross-Action slots) be viable - thanks to gear and stats bonuses - why bother with the whole charade? Just remove the Cross-Actions.

Only Jobs are narrowly defined as a tank, healer and dps. Classes are not defined at all but have a mix of ability's that one would see in multiple roles. Ex. Arcanist has a tanky pet while also having healing skills. That is what classes are about - a hybrid sense and shouldn't be the best in one role - that is what Jobs were designed to be (the best in one role).

Jobs can only take a few tools from 2 specific classes that made up its Job to be better at its role while Classes have flexibility (they are already hybrids anyway) and can take more tools from more classes to fill more roles in conjunction with each other. (dps and healing at same time, tank and healing, etc)

[SodiumChloride]

Only Jobs are narrowly defined as a tank, healer and dps. Classes are not defined at all but have a mix of ability's that one would see in multiple roles. Ex. Arcanist has a tanky pet while also having healing skills. That is what classes are about - a hybrid sense and shouldn't be the best in one role - that is what Jobs were designed to be (the best in one role).

Jobs can only take a few tools from 2 specific classes that made up its Job to be better at its role while Classes have flexibility (they are already hybrids anyway) and can take more tools from more classes to fill more roles in conjunction with each other. (dps and healing at same time, tank and healing, etc)

Total fine with that. But Classes being "useless" in groups, not fine with that.

[SodiumChloride]

Then take it up with the developers. Though at this point I don't think you'll get anywhere, the design seems to be pretty crystallized now.

I would post this on the official forums but I can't access it - keeps give me the "Temporary session is invalid. Please try again later" message ...

[CandyCotton Marshmallows]

Total fine with that. But Classes being "useless" in groups, not fine with that.

I don't see what you are getting at unless you are being argumentative for the sake of it.

Classes aren't 'useless' in a group; they are just less viable, as in, not optimal. You know how the MMO crowd has been spiraling towards optimal over fun, even when you start talking < 5% difference.

Take WoW for example. How many times have you seen 'I'm forced to switch specs because X' ... whether it be gimmicky fight, a specific talent, or whatever. Remember mages bitching about 'having' to switch to arcane? How about when they 'had' to be fire? Or locks 'needed' to be affliction or demo. What about the days in Vanilla or BC when ONLY one spec was brought -at all-. If you didn't roll that spec because you didn't like it, you weren't raiding.

So, we have classes and jobs in FFXIV. If you were part of a 'friends and family' type guild (doesn't need to be actual friends and family, just the mentality is about fun and working together, not necessarily cutting edge progression; working around the systems to do what they want) ... I'm sure you could form groups with them and be whatever class you want, as long as you set up the entire group to account for the things needed for the fight (aka BLM LB for nails) ... then you could bring your ACN and be happy ... but it is both -you- and the people you are with. By choosing to be ACN, you will not do the same damage as SMN, nor should you;

but if I was your raid leader, and content was on farm or reasonably easy enough; I'd let you fool around as much as you wanted with the class. Not that many people have this problem because most are focused on specific role maximization; so doubtful all 8/16 people would ask to go this route. Hell, even on progression, if it wasn't causing some sort of soft/hard enrage, have fun at it. Outside of world first levels (MMOs in general), 90% of the wipes people experience is mechanics failures ... deltas in differences between specs/jobs-classes/etc are rarely the main contributor. Execution of the spec's priority, learning the fight, mistakes, class/spec optimizations, teamwork/communication, lucidity, dc/lag, etc have all been far greater causes of wipes than simple 'frost does 5-10% less dps, go arcane noob' bullshit* (*not bullshit if competing for world/server firsts).


So, find some people that are more laid back and easy going, form groups with them and experiment to do what you find fun. Don't pull out a tanking pet before a fight though ... that is just being intentionally ridiculous and detrimental ... unless it is to save a wipe during a fight if possible if a tank goes down and you need time for a brez (like summoning a void lord to tank while you wait for tank to accept brez/ss type situation ... never played a SMN much, don't know how viable that tanking pet is).


I do understand you are trying to make a point; but don't go overboard with it. Jobs are meant to excel at a role; classes are hybrids and sacrifice ultimate role performance for it; which doesn't mean you can't play it. Should you? That is up to you and your teammates.

[Lyese]

Classes were the original framework of 1.0. Jobs didn't come until much later through a patch. The reason they're keeping the Armory system is to make it easier to add new jobs. This way, they can A) Add jobs without adding classes B) Add classes without adding jobs or C) add both new classes and jobs.

Classes are not meant to be used at endgame. There are niche applications (solo heal/solo tank Garuda EX, THM can be higher dps than BLM on certain encounters, etc.), but they are generally designed so that jobs are optimal. If there is a situation where a class surpasses a job, like with LNC being close to better dps than DRG due to how horrid jumps were pre-2.1, then they'll obviously buff those jobs back up.

[SodiumChloride]

I don't see what you are getting at unless you are being argumentative for the sake of it.

Classes aren't 'useless' in a group; they are just less viable, as in, not optimal. You know how the MMO crowd has been spiraling towards optimal over fun, even when you start talking < 5% difference.

Hence the quotation marks around "useless".

Take WoW for example. How many times have you seen 'I'm forced to switch specs because X' ... whether it be gimmicky fight, a specific talent, or whatever. Remember mages bitching about 'having' to switch to arcane? How about when they 'had' to be fire? Or locks 'needed' to be affliction or demo. What about the days in Vanilla or BC when ONLY one spec was brought -at all-. If you didn't roll that spec because you didn't like it, you weren't raiding.

So, we have classes and jobs in FFXIV. If you were part of a 'friends and family' type guild (doesn't need to be actual friends and family, just the mentality is about fun and working together, not necessarily cutting edge progression; working around the systems to do what they want) ... I'm sure you could form groups with them and be whatever class you want, as long as you set up the entire group to account for the things needed for the fight (aka BLM LB for nails) ... then you could bring your ACN and be happy ... but it is both -you- and the people you are with. By choosing to be ACN, you will not do the same damage as SMN, nor should you;

but if I was your raid leader, and content was on farm or reasonably easy enough; I'd let you fool around as much as you wanted with the class. Not that many people have this problem because most are focused on specific role maximization; so doubtful all 8/16 people would ask to go this route. Hell, even on progression, if it wasn't causing some sort of soft/hard enrage, have fun at it. Outside of world first levels (MMOs in general), 90% of the wipes people experience is mechanics failures ... deltas in differences between specs/jobs-classes/etc are rarely the main contributor. Execution of the spec's priority, learning the fight, mistakes, class/spec optimizations, teamwork/communication, lucidity, dc/lag, etc have all been far greater causes of wipes than simple 'frost does 5-10% less dps, go arcane noob' bullshit* (*not bullshit if competing for world/server firsts).


So, find some people that are more laid back and easy going, form groups with them and experiment to do what you find fun. Don't pull out a tanking pet before a fight though ... that is just being intentionally ridiculous and detrimental ... unless it is to save a wipe during a fight if possible if a tank goes down and you need time for a brez (like summoning a void lord to tank while you wait for tank to accept brez/ss type situation ... never played a SMN much, don't know how viable that tanking pet is).


I do understand you are trying to make a point; but don't go overboard with it. Jobs are meant to excel at a role; classes are hybrids and sacrifice ultimate role performance for it; which doesn't mean you can't play it. Should you? That is up to you and your teammates.

Thing is, in PUGs, if you aren't "optimal", "unsolicited comments" will inevitably come your way ... (which is partly why I wondered if this is a "self-imposed" restriction - e.g. 14 for Flex in WoW - or really necessary)

Currently, I have given up. SMN it is. It doesn't help that ACN is clearly weaker than SMN stats-wise - even when soloing. Your stats and damage are just higher as SMN I noticed, your pets also hit harder. If they buff ACN's stats up, it would be more than competitive. There is nothing wrong with ACN mechanics, it's just being "held back" by stats.

That's that I suppose. Just have to accept my lot in life. As the Japanese like to say, しょうが*い.

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Classes were the original framework of 1.0. Jobs didn't come until much later through a patch. The reason they're keeping the Armory system is to make it easier to add new jobs. This way, they can A) Add jobs without adding classes B) Add classes without adding jobs or C) add both new classes and jobs.

Classes are not meant to be used at endgame. There are niche applications (solo heal/solo tank Garuda EX, THM can be higher dps than BLM on certain encounters, etc.), but they are generally designed so that jobs are optimal. If there is a situation where a class surpasses a job, like with LNC being close to better dps than DRG due to how horrid jumps were pre-2.1, then they'll obviously buff those jobs back up.

I can see why they added Jobs to be honest. Having to level multiple classes to fill up your Cross-Action slots is hell.

[zito]

Total fine with that. But Classes being "useless" in groups, not fine with that.

They are not useless in groups. Like I've said before their "uses" are very specific and group content ends up being end game content which requires you to be the best at a specific role which jobs cover.

If your doing crystal tower I'm sure nobody would really care if you were a class or not.

[Kutartwo]

I do understand what you trying to get at, but I still think jobs should definitely be more superior. It just goes with logic. I mean, someone did mention earlier that you could level a magikarp up to level 100, but why would you? Gyarados is much more powerful. Like I mentioned earlier, the storyline evolves you into jobs once you have proven you are more than just a class, that you can focus your training into something much more powerful and specialized. And to offer classes the same amount of power over a diverse set of skills would break that ideology.

As the saying goes "Jack of all trades, Master of none". You can have an electrician go around welding what a welder would do, but it won't be certified (unless he's also specialized in that field of course).

[Tazila]

I think of it this way, if you level all classes to max, what benefit, AT END GAME, do they give over jobs other than say a couple of cross-class spells?

And yes, I understand you want classes to be just as strong, but when 85% of your skill kit IS from that main class for a job, then what's the issue?

[Katchii]

Total fine with that. But Classes being "useless" in groups, not fine with that.

Why are you not OK with it?

The game is balanced around jobs being specifically catered to a role; DPS, Healer or Tank. So in a group setting there is little benefit (if any) and VERY minimal (if any) improvements by taking away from your primary role and giving yourself sub-optimal cross class abilities when the other specialized jobs can do it themselves.

The class system allows them to have a "base" class idea, change into two distinct jobs, like Scholar and Summoner without having to completely change the toolkit or make an entirely different job.

Also, the way the system is set-up up with classes 1-30 and jobs 30+ is how the game works...you're not going to completely change hte structure of the game now.

[SodiumChloride]

The class system allows them to have a "base" class idea, change into two distinct jobs, like Scholar and Summoner without having to completely change the toolkit or make an entirely different job.

For the ACN and it's related Jobs I really wished they did not "replace" ACN abilities. Summon I & II got re-purposed to summon the Primal-Egis ...

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My 30 free days aren't up yet and I'm already thinking of quitting.

Talk about bait and switch. I don't really like the Primal-Egis and don't tell me ACN is "viable". Every CT run (yes, LOLCT; seriously who gives a fuck, we have people AFKing in there FFS, a little less DPS isn't going to kill anyone) as ACN will have some asshole commenting.

[theWocky]

I got this game - and for work reasons, only played to level 10.

Loved the artwork - animation, stability. Looks like it's time to check this out again.

[Katchii]

Talk about bait and switch. I don't really like the Primal-Egis and don't tell me ACN is "viable". Every CT run (yes, LOLCT; seriously who gives a fuck, we have people AFKing in there FFS, a little less DPS isn't going to kill anyone) as ACN will have some asshole commenting

How is it a bait and switch? You're able to play the class you wanted to play, you just want to be able to play with Carbuncle instead of the primal-egi's? Arcanist uses Carbuncle, Summoner uses the primal-egi's it's part of the lore for who they are, not understanding the problem, the game is working as intended.

Also, the base classes aren't really viable in an end-game situation, even in CT. Playing as ACN rather than SMN causes you to lose out on the SMN only abilities that provide a large amount of DPS (Specifically Bane, Fester and Enkindle). Playing at a level below what's possible hinders your whole party and alliance, not just you. I can see where you're coming from, play how you want to play, but be prepared to catch some flak for your choices if you're going to be holding the group back or purposely nerfing your performance because of your personal preference.

Maybe play a different class if SMN isn't working out the way you want it to, performance wise or aesthetically? Only real piece of advice I can give that's contructive.

[Captain N]

I'm not sure his posts are to be taken seriously. He has multiple threads in this forum complaining about various aspects of the game. I can fully understand if the game is not to his liking, but multiple posts that do nothing constructive is nothing short of trolling.

[Kutartwo]

For the ACN and it's related Jobs I really wished they did not "replace" ACN abilities. Summon I & II got re-purposed to summon the Primal-Egis ...

- - - Updated - - -

My 30 free days aren't up yet and I'm already thinking of quitting.

Talk about bait and switch. I don't really like the Primal-Egis and don't tell me ACN is "viable". Every CT run (yes, LOLCT; seriously who gives a fuck, we have people AFKing in there FFS, a little less DPS isn't going to kill anyone) as ACN will have some asshole commenting.

Okay... If you want to quit, that's your decision. Why play a game that's not meant for you, because from the sounds of it it's not. And it is definitely not bait and switch. SE has never (or anyone for that matter) come and said base classes are viable for end game content. You CAN be if you want, but you won't be optimized for end game. I get you are frustrated by it, but there are pretty good points from people in this thread you should consider.

[Lethey Alexandros]

I use my marauder class for one thing and one thing only. PVP, the ability to grab several damage enhanceing cool downs I would not have as a warrior makes up for what I lose with not haveing the job stone stat buff. The burst a marauder is capable of doing is immensiley over powered and once I have my cool downs up and I storms eye my target, my butchers block does retarded damage.

Beyond that, I alaways have my warrior stone equiped, not much reason to not have it equiped but to the thread topic, classes are not entierly useless in endgame, just dpends on which endgame you are into. Classes are great for pvp becuse of all the cross class skills you can play with but jobs are more suited towards pve and endgame dungeons/raids