Let me get this straight. Classes aren't viable end-game? Only Jobs?

[SodiumChloride]

I'm not sure his posts are to be taken seriously. He has multiple threads in this forum complaining about various aspects of the game. I can fully understand if the game is not to his liking, but multiple posts that do nothing constructive is nothing short of trolling.

Multiple? I think I have a grand total of 3 threads. The first asking how to get the game, the other about "stuttering" which I found a solution to (or at least I think I did) so I decided to share it in case anyone else has the same problem.

I think the fanboy in you is showing.

Okay... If you want to quit, that's your decision. Why play a game that's not meant for you, because from the sounds of it it's not. And it is definitely not bait and switch. SE has never (or anyone for that matter) come and said base classes are viable for end game content. You CAN be if you want, but you won't be optimized for end game. I get you are frustrated by it, but there are pretty good points from people in this thread you should consider.

Part of the issue is spells being replaced. You run with something for over 30 levels then it's removed.

That and nowhere did it say you can't do end game with Classes.

In the Armoury System, changing your adventuring style—or class—is as simple as changing what you hold in your hand.

Each class is capable of performing unique actions which are learned as you gain experience and your level rises. Furthermore, achieving a certain level of mastery in multiple classes will unlock jobs, which feature even greater specialization.

Classes are suited to those who desire versatility, as they allow the use of actions that belong to other disciplines. In contrast, jobs grant access to exclusive actions and are ideal for situations that demand well-defined roles. Which fighting style you adopt is entirely up to you.

So much for that ...

Run into a CT DF run as ACN and get fucking flamed. -_- Was quite pissed when I wrote my previous post. It's CT FFS.

Currently it's back to SMN again, just to shut the whiners up. My feelings about running as SMN depends on my "mood" - OCD is a bitch; no seriously I have OCD and am on meds for it, but Zoloft can only do so much.

[Tazila]

Currently it's back to SMN again, just to shut the whiners up. My feelings about running as SMN depends on my "mood" - OCD is a bitch; no seriously I have OCD and am on meds for it, but Zoloft can only do so much.

I was diagnosed with OCD about 20 years ago and one thing that you def need to learn at some point is that what you feel is correct or right doesn't mean that the rest of the world has to change because of your compulsion, that or they have to even understand why you feel that way, because there are times where a persons OCD will make them ache for the unreasonable regardless of what it is.

That being said, you might just want to end the argument. I doubt that any line of reason is going to sway you, therefore we're really just arguing with a wall. And I don't mean that rudely, I've been the wall people have argued with before, granted not about something as my... class in a video game is based off my mood, but more real life problematic issues, but we're all different in our little quirks. <3

[Lyese]

-snip-<3

Tazila, I'm going to vote you for FF14 Oprah.

[SodiumChloride]

I was diagnosed with OCD about 20 years ago and one thing that you def need to learn at some point is that what you feel is correct or right doesn't mean that the rest of the world has to change because of your compulsion, that or they have to even understand why you feel that way, because there are times where a persons OCD will make them ache for the unreasonable regardless of what it is.

That being said, you might just want to end the argument. I doubt that any line of reason is going to sway you, therefore we're really just arguing with a wall. And I don't mean that rudely, I've been the wall people have argued with before, granted not about something as my... class in a video game is based off my mood, but more real life problematic issues, but we're all different in our little quirks. <3

Not really sure what the argument is about at the moment.

I got the idea that Classes were viable from SE's own page. Apparently it wasn't accurate. I'm disappointed. It made my life considerably harder - ya, ERP, I know.

[zito]

Not really sure what the argument is about at the moment.

I got the idea that Classes were viable from SE's own page. Apparently it wasn't accurate. I'm disappointed. It made my life considerably harder - ya, ERP, I know.

They are viable. We already went over this. I think I repeated myself 4 times to you. If you are just going to ignore and complain and going in circles there is no point in explaining it to you again.

[Tazila]

Tazila, I'm going to vote you for FF14 Oprah.

That'd pretty much be what would happen 24/7.

Not really sure what the argument is about at the moment.

I got the idea that Classes were viable from SE's own page. Apparently it wasn't accurate. I'm disappointed. It made my life considerably harder - ya, ERP, I know.

ARMOURY SYSTEM

In the Armoury System, changing your adventuring style—or class—is as simple as changing what you hold in your hand.

Each class is capable of performing unique actions which are learned as you gain experience and your level rises. Furthermore, achieving a certain level of mastery in multiple classes will unlock jobs, which feature even greater specialization.

Classes are suited to those who desire versatility, as they allow the use of actions that belong to other disciplines. In contrast, jobs grant access to exclusive actions and are ideal for situations that demand well-defined roles. Which fighting style you adopt is entirely up to you.

I can see the confusion to an extent, but at the same time, they point out that jobs are meant as an upgrade to class (even greater specialization), but they also point out that jobs are in contrast to classes, and are meant for more structured/role-needing situations, which in most cases is ANYTHING end game.

Yes, it does say that it's up to you as to what you can get. But if you want to say be an ACN and off heal, then you're not really fitting a specific role that they do say exists in the game. If anything you can just go SCH and cleric stance all of CT (assuming the other healer doesn't start screaming Cleric Stance at you like all the ones do to me lololool).



I can understand the confusion though, but I think they meant to represent as jobs being an upgrade to classes, not something to be completely separate and equal. Yea, there are times where some classes can be more viable than jobs, like I think Zito or someone said something about doing Maradur.. (dur?) in PvP, but yea not all classes have that luxury to be more viable. Whether it was misrepresentation on their part, or them thinking that it wasn't something hard to really understand for those who have played MMOs from start to end game (Healed so many low level wow dungeons as an ele sham, can't pull that off for end game raids lol), but it's definitely not something they're ever going to change.

[SodiumChloride]

I can see the confusion to an extent, but at the same time, they point out that jobs are meant as an upgrade to class (even greater specialization), but they also point out that jobs are in contrast to classes, and are meant for more structured/role-needing situations, which in most cases is ANYTHING end game.

Yes, it does say that it's up to you as to what you can get. But if you want to say be an ACN and off heal, then you're not really fitting a specific role that they do say exists in the game. If anything you can just go SCH and cleric stance all of CT (assuming the other healer doesn't start screaming Cleric Stance at you like all the ones do to me lololool).



I can understand the confusion though, but I think they meant to represent as jobs being an upgrade to classes, not something to be completely separate and equal. Yea, there are times where some classes can be more viable than jobs, like I think Zito or someone said something about doing Maradur.. (dur?) in PvP, but yea not all classes have that luxury to be more viable. Whether it was misrepresentation on their part, or them thinking that it wasn't something hard to really understand for those who have played MMOs from start to end game (Healed so many low level wow dungeons as an ele sham, can't pull that off for end game raids lol), but it's definitely not something they're ever going to change.

That's the thing, they said nothing of "upgrades". Specialization != Upgrade.

They also explicitly state "Which fighting style you adopt is entirely up to you." - i.e. you can use either. How you choose to run, heavy specialization or jack-of-all-trades, is entirely up to you.

That's why I ask if it's a player created and enforced rule - like in WoW's Flex where people will only run with 14 people despite the developer's claim you can run with anywhere from 10-25 players.

Either way, the reality is, as I found out in the worst possible way, you can't run with Classes (not without getting yelled at) - i.e. not viable; let's not argue semantics zito. Misrepresentation it is - unintentional or otherwise. My expectations when I bought the game aren't met.

[Tazila]

Ah see, I don't consider player enforced rules being something you can be mad at FF about.


But yes, it is a player enforced rule. YES, you can run flex raid with 10-25 people, the ones I did, had 11 people generally, one had like 18. Developers claim is literally "You CAN do this" doesn't mean that the player base will let you, their claim is 100% correct though. You CAN be an ACN if you want, doesn't mean people won't bitch at you. Those people complaining at you don't take away you're ability to take off your soul-gem (what ever it's called) and become an ACN instead of a SMN, they merely make you keep the SMN on because you don't want to get yelled at, but they don't remove your ability to change classes. Their claim you can be what ever you want is also 100% true.


And I assumed that "GREATER specialization" meant upgrade. ACN is a specialization, SMN is the GREATER specialization that becomes greater FROM the ACN specialization. An.. upgrade on specialization.

Honestly, you getting yelled at in CT's or any dungeons could easily be that those people are assuming you're lazy and aren't getting a specialization. They could easily look at it as "Well I got myself to be a SMN or a BLM, why can't this guy level another class 15 levels like the rest of us, I don't wanna lose gear to this guy, let's kick him out".



As for arguing semantics, that's exactly what this whole problems about. We're reading the same words as you, but we're not taking the same meanings from those words, this entire thread is an argument of semantics against how a person reads/read the FFXIV site. When I said I -could- see it as misrepresentation, lemme clarify. I think it's pretty clear that you're not suppose to use your starter class at end game, be that my playing plenty of MMOs before that, or that they point out that the jobs are meant for role specific things which usually screams end game. At no point does anyone take away the button from me, so I can always be what ever I want, it just depends on if the people in my party want me to be what ever I want in which I can't blame FF for that.

FF will NOT tell the player base "hey, let people who play classes play their classes and be nice okay" because that's like an ISP telling people "hey if you use this internet don't troll"

[SodiumChloride]

Ah see, I don't consider player enforced rules being something you can be mad at FF about.


But yes, it is a player enforced rule. YES, you can run flex raid with 10-25 people, the ones I did, had 11 people generally, one had like 18. Developers claim is literally "You CAN do this" doesn't mean that the player base will let you, their claim is 100% correct though. You CAN be an ACN if you want, doesn't mean people won't bitch at you. Those people complaining at you don't take away you're ability to take off your soul-gem (what ever it's called) and become an ACN instead of a SMN, they merely make you keep the SMN on because you don't want to get yelled at, but they don't remove your ability to change classes. Their claim you can be what ever you want is also 100% true.

Can't agree with the definition you are using,

It's like saying I can stab a guy on the street. Sure the police will throw me in prison and I will never see the sun again, but I can stab a guy on the street. Right?

And I assumed that "GREATER specialization" meant upgrade. ACN is a specialization, SMN is the GREATER specialization that becomes greater FROM the ACN specialization. An.. upgrade on specialization.

Honestly, you getting yelled at in CT's or any dungeons could easily be that those people are assuming you're lazy and aren't getting a specialization. They could easily look at it as "Well I got myself to be a SMN or a BLM, why can't this guy level another class 15 levels like the rest of us, I don't wanna lose gear to this guy, let's kick him out".

Specialization != upgrade. Upgrade means you get more powerful as a whole - like when you level up. While specialization means you lose flexibility for strength in a specific area.

Specialization is a trade-off and in-game I think it's meant to be given that they limit your Cross-Action slots and the abilities that fill them. Jobs aren't suppose to be more powerful that Classes, in general. The fact that end-game gear is wearable by an ACN as well as the ability to even queue for CT as an ACN, at least hints to Classes being usable end-game. But where they failed is the implementation, e.g. +stats to Jobs, Job specific gear.

- - - Updated - - -

I know some don't like me criticizing their favourite game - seriously it's a good game; but that doesn't mean I don't have complaints.

To quote FFXIV own producer/director,

[Tazila]

Can't agree with the definition you are using,

It's like saying I can stab a guy on the street. Sure the police will throw me in prison and I will never see the sun again, but I can stab a guy on the street. Right?



Specialization != upgrade. Upgrade means you get more powerful as a whole - like when you level up. While specialization means you lose flexibility for strength in a specific area.

Specialization is a trade-off and in-game I think it's meant to be given that they limit your Cross-Action slots and the abilities that fill them. Jobs aren't suppose to be more powerful that Classes, in general. The fact that end-game gear is wearable by an ACN as well as the ability to even queue for CT as an ACN, at least hints to Classes being usable end-game. But where they failed is the implementation, e.g. +stats to Jobs, Job specific gear.

- - - Updated - - -

I know some don't like me criticizing their favourite game - seriously it's a good game; but that doesn't mean I don't have complaints.

To quote FFXIV own producer/director,

Yes, you can stab a guy on the street. Should you? Up to you. Will you be punished, yea if you get caught, but does it make you unable too, no.


And I made a point of saying greater specialization because the class is considered a specialization, the job is considered a greater specialization, so I took that as an upgrade from a job. Here's your role that you've mastered (once you've mastered the class you get your job, class is considered mastered at level 30), now let's clean it up even more.


And it's not my favorite game by far, I have my only complaints about it but genrally they're something everyone else complains about. Bugs, what ever.

And, while I'd love to say that quoting him means something, but he literally has said everything anyone's ever wanted to hear since he took the job on. That's one thing I've def had a complaint about since the get go. Yea, he'll address the problem, or acknowledge common basic everyday gaming/life problems, but actions > words and through incredible apologies and such, you rarely actually get the action to back the words.

I'll just agree to disagree! =D

[SodiumChloride]

Yes, you can stab a guy on the street. Should you? Up to you. Will you be punished, yea if you get caught, but does it make you unable too, no.

Sure. Keep saying its "viable" like the other guy. People running into CT as without a soul stone will continue to get flamed, ruining their game experience.

And I made a point of saying greater specialization because the class is considered a specialization, the job is considered a greater specialization, so I took that as an upgrade from a job. Here's your role that you've mastered (once you've mastered the class you get your job, class is considered mastered at level 30), now let's clean it up even more.

What you have said does nothing to address my point.

Classes are mean to be viable at lvl cap, else they wouldn't even allow them into CT. This is a flaw in the game.

And it's not my favorite game by far, I have my only complaints about it but genrally they're something everyone else complains about. Bugs, what ever.

And, while I'd love to say that quoting him means something, but he literally has said everything anyone's ever wanted to hear since he took the job on. That's one thing I've def had a complaint about since the get go. Yea, he'll address the problem, or acknowledge common basic everyday gaming/life problems, but actions > words and through incredible apologies and such, you rarely actually get the action to back the words.

I'll just agree to disagree! =D

Wasn't really addressing you with that follow up post.

Just tired of being flamed/downvoted/whatever when I complain about something in some game because fanboys think it's sacrilegious that I should dare say anything bad about their game. The irony is by silencing critics they are doing more harm than good since the developers can't get accurate feedback, thus, can't fix what they don't know is broke.

Developers are probably glad they receive complaints about the flaws in their games, since it means people still give a shit about it.

[Lyese]

I think I've been inspired by NaCl to run CT this week as a THM and ACN. As a BLM, I usually blow everyone out of the water on dps (Me @ 280-300, 2nd place at 170.), and though I'm not as good at SMN, I still run the table. Biggest challenges would be the loss of Flare/Fester (Bane is ACN), loss of Enkindle/Spur for SMN, and....uh....I guess...nothing else for BLM. All of my gear is CT/Allagan, with primal 90 weapons for both. FOR SCIENCE! BEEEEEEES!

Bone Dragon: Top @ 240. Yes, I dps'd adds.
Atomos: Top @ 258. Would've been higher if A had stopped getting off the platform.
Thanatos: Hard fight to measure dps, but 2nd at 114. 3rd was 92. First was 117.
Vassago: Top @ 226
Behemoth: Top @ 251. Dps'd Iron Giants once they were picked up. 2nd @ 190.
Acheron: Top @ 207. Dps'd claws.

In conclusion, it's certainly still "viable" for THM, but my numbers are lower across the board than BLM. Nobody really noticed I was even a THM.

[Tazila]

I think I've been inspired by NaCl to run CT this week as a THM and ACN. As a BLM, I usually blow everyone out of the water on dps (Me @ 280-300, 2nd place at 170.), and though I'm not as good at SMN, I still run the table. Biggest challenges would be the loss of Flare/Fester (Bane is ACN), loss of Enkindle/Spur for SMN, and....uh....I guess...nothing else for BLM. All of my gear is CT/Allagan, with primal 90 weapons for both. FOR SCIENCE! BEEEEEEES!

Bone Dragon: Top @ 240. Yes, I dps'd adds.
Atomos: Top @ 258. Would've been higher if A had stopped getting off the platform.
Thanatos: Hard fight to measure dps, but 2nd at 114. 3rd was 92. First was 117.
Vassago: Top @ 226
Behemoth: Top @ 251. Dps'd Iron Giants once they were picked up. 2nd @ 190.

LOL. Yea I was planning on going in to CT as ACN later today too.


As for sodium, when they say you can play what ever you want, it doesn't mean it has to be viable, it just means you have the ability to be that class.

People complain about games all the time, problem is, is most people don't complain where it matters. If I have any problem with any game that is "game breaking" for me, I post it on the forums, never anywhere else past that, and if I can't get on the forums, I find the customer support email and send out an e-mail go "well at least I tried" and hope. I've known a lot of "complaints" that have resulted in bans, on the FF forums or else where. The FF forums are also notorious for deleting threads of complaints.

The only thing your complaint might change is them to be even more blunt on how leveling and end game work, or they might even just make classes unable to que for end game things with the error text of "You need to chose a job to enter queue". Which only will help the very few who may be confused (as you're the only person I've ran into that's even asked this), or make things the opposite of what you want.

[SodiumChloride]

I think I've been inspired by NaCl to run CT this week as a THM and ACN. As a BLM, I usually blow everyone out of the water on dps (Me @ 280-300, 2nd place at 170.), and though I'm not as good at SMN, I still run the table. Biggest challenges would be the loss of Flare/Fester (Bane is ACN), loss of Enkindle/Spur for SMN, and....uh....I guess...nothing else for BLM. All of my gear is CT/Allagan, with primal 90 weapons for both. FOR SCIENCE! BEEEEEEES!

Bone Dragon: Top @ 240. Yes, I dps'd adds.
Atomos: Top @ 258. Would've been higher if A had stopped getting off the platform.
Thanatos: Hard fight to measure dps, but 2nd at 114. 3rd was 92. First was 117.

How do you parser damage in this game? There are no addons ...

I swear the worse thing about this game is the players. Just can't shut the fuck up about how others choose to play, even when it doesn't fucking matter in the grand scheme of things. DF CT ... It's face roll, it's not like you are running extreme mode or something where every digit of DPS counts - the DPS loss isn't even that huge if you use a class.

Just an hour ago, someone bitch about me using Ifrit instead of Garuda ... Really? Both their attacks hit around the same - actually Ifrit edges out Garuda a tiny bit in my tests; more or less inline with their auto-attack ability tooltips. /shakeshead

Maybe I should learn Japanese so I can pretend to not speak English stopping the "conversation" dead in its tracks.

[Lyese]

How do you parser damage in this game? There are no addons ...

ACT and FF14 App are both pretty good third party parsers. I find ACT to be more accurate most of the time.

I swear the worse thing about this game is the players. Just can't shut the fuck up about how others choose to play, even when it doesn't fucking matter in the grand scheme of things. DF CT ... It's face roll, it's not like you are running extreme mode or something where every digit of DPS counts - the DPS loss isn't even that huge if you use a class.

Eh, I've only done 1 run so far (30m queue times suck), but the only person that noticed I was a THM and not a BLM was someone who went to the wrong lane in Atomos. CT is so easy, there's really no reason to complain as long as everyone does the basic mechanics.

Just an hour ago, someone bitch about me using Ifrit instead of Garuda ... Really? Both their attacks hit around the same - actually Ifrit edges out Garuda a tiny bit in my tests; more or less inline with their auto-attack ability tooltips. /shakeshead

Maybe I should learn Japanese so I can pretend to not speak English stopping the "conversation" dead in its tracks.

Garuda is more dps technically because of Contagion and it's easier for her to swap targets than Ifrit (ranged vs melee debate). Plus, Ifrit gets chewed up by almost every aoe in the game, even with the aoe damage reduction. His Enkindle is way better, though. Seriously though, you gotta calm down.

[SodiumChloride]

ACT and FF14 App are both pretty good third party parsers. I find ACT to be more accurate most of the time.

3rd party program?

Eh, I've only done 1 run so far (30m queue times suck), but the only person that noticed I was a THM and not a BLM was someone who went to the wrong lane in Atomos. CT is so easy, there's really no reason to complain as long as everyone does the basic mechanics.




Garuda is more dps technically because of Contagion and it's easier for her to swap targets than Ifrit (ranged vs melee debate). Plus, Ifrit gets chewed up by almost every aoe in the game, even with the aoe damage reduction. His Enkindle is way better, though. Seriously though, you gotta calm down.

Ya, there is Contagion but it's kind of hard to use when DoT times don't line up properly - I'm having a hard enough time as it is not dying from AoE and maintain those 3 DoTs.

I don't run with Ifrit when there is too much AoE (like in CT). In the end, the difference is minor. It's not like I'm running with Titan fucking up tank threat. And the dude that complained about me running with Ifrit instead of Garuda ... it was in a Light Party dungeon ... /sigh

[Palinn]

I haven't played in a while but I think I remember reading some in-game information where it said something along the lines... classes are for solo play, jobs are for group play. If that's the case then I'd imagine that "end game raiding" will never be balanced with classes in mind since that situation is group play.

[Tazila]

People, in almost anything, expect others to do the best, if someone sees someone doing their best or making themselves worse, they assume that you either don't know or that you're just being lazy. So, depending on the person, you're either going to have to get the guy who is like HEY YO YOU, You're wrong! or the "hey, just so you know you can do this and this and it'll help!" or the "OMG BADDIE GO DIE".

Either way, that'll happen in every game and... in a lot of normal situations.



The weirdest part for me, is that FF so far has had one of the best communities I've been in in a while, most people aren't the stereotypical douche.

[Lyese]

The weirdest part for me, is that FF so far has had one of the best communities I've been in in a while, most people aren't the stereotypical douche.

That's why I still play this game.

[Katchii]

Ya, there is Contagion but it's kind of hard to use when DoT times don't line up properly - I'm having a hard enough time as it is not dying from AoE and maintain those 3 DoTs.

I don't run with Ifrit when there is too much AoE (like in CT). In the end, the difference is minor. It's not like I'm running with Titan fucking up tank threat. And the dude that complained about me running with Ifrit instead of Garuda ... it was in a Light Party dungeon ... /sigh

I respect your desire to be able to play the game the way you want (which by the way, Square allows you to do everything so what THEY'VE said is 100% true, player "enforced" rules aren't the developers fault) however I can't help but feel like you're getting upset with people who aren't letting you be mediocre at your class/ job.

Classes are not as good as jobs in end game situations, hence specializing in the party role (ACN is a tad different due to being able to go DPS or Heal), which means they're more effective at that role. Garuda IS a DPS increase over Ifrit, however minor it might be, if you can control her correctly; letting her use contagion on cooldown is not the most effective way because more often than not, the DoT's won't line up.

People, in almost anything, expect others to do the best, if someone sees someone doing their best or making themselves worse, they assume that you either don't know or that you're just being lazy. So, depending on the person, you're either going to have to get the guy who is like HEY YO YOU, You're wrong! or the "hey, just so you know you can do this and this and it'll help!" or the "OMG BADDIE GO DIE".

Asking someone to play their class/ job and fill the role they signed up for to the fullest of their ability is not a bad thing.