[WoD] Retribution Paladin Megathread

[Smitus]

...reality?

What huntingbear said. Ret's are actually extremely middle of the pack right now on single target, and we're on the stronger half of the spectrum on most aoe

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Hammer of Wrath knocks Exorcism out of the rotation. Why not delete Exo and have HoW permanently takes its place?

- HoW has X cooldown, which is halved during Wings.
- Sanctified Wrath is gone for Ret, replaced by Inquisition.
- Holy Avenger is no longer a separate ability and now enhances Wings.
- HoW deals +X% damage when the target is in execute range.
- Art of War enables a free, amped Divine Storm.

How does SW being replaced by inq make any sense??
And SW isn't even replaced if HoW is half cooldown during AW, it's just being renamed in this model
Also backing 4pc into ret forever is bad idea

[Zabannith]

Ret is in fact middle of the pack right now , where people think we are so bad is because the nature of class stacking , most serious raids stack the strongest classes , thus creating the illusion that ret is shit by comparison.

[KurenaiXIII]

Instead of leaving Inquisition as is I would prefer it if they turned it into an attack that deals much less damage than TV as holy damage while keeping its current effects building up resources and spending them on a simple buff just doesn't feel satisfying.

This sounds terrible to me. Why would I want to spend HoPo on something that does less damage than TV? This is the problem with 'replacing' Inquisition with a damage-dealing button--it's going to be superfluous. Either it'll be strong enough to obsolete another rotational button or it'll be weak and not worth using. People who say 'Inquisition doesn't add anything to the gameplay' haven't been putting forth anything I've seen that has. Taking a button away isn't going to make Ret more complex or harder to play.

[Hofflerand]

How does SW being replaced by inq make any sense??
And SW isn't even replaced if HoW is half cooldown during AW, it's just being renamed in this model
Also backing 4pc into ret forever is bad idea

As part of ability bloat reduction, I predict Holy Avenger will enhance Wings rather than be a separate ability. To save us from having two improved Wings talents (which was already basically the case for Ret in MoP) I suggested Sanctified Wrath be replaced. Why bake SW into HoW? Because it's fun when Wings at the baseline changes up the rotation, and in my model HoW is already available outside of Wings.

Inq is like Divine Purpose in that some like it and some don't, which makes for a great talent. Why can't it be part of tier 75?

It's a great idea to make a mechanic similar to T16 4pc permanent! In my opinion cleave shouldn't have been removed from the single-target rotation in the first place, a stance Blizzard seems to share nowadays, and I really dislike how Divine Storm was degraded from the centerpiece of WotLK Ret to the AoE version of Templar's Verdict. My suggestion would return some of its glory without hurting its new role, all while making Art of War procs actually feel cool and important.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Well if you want to follow in Lumineus way of judging specs you can go here to see the actual numbers top 100 parsing rets have done the last couple months.
(again, ranks doesn't give a clear picture. Take them with a seriously big bag of salt.)
Immersus - http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Immerseus/25H/100/14/60/max/
Protectors - http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Falle...100/14/60/max/
Norushen - http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Norushen/25H/100/14/60/max/
Sha - http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Sha_of_Pr...100/14/60/max/
Galakras - http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Galakras/25H/100/14/60/max/
Iron Juggernaut - http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Iron_Jugg...100/14/60/max/
Shamans - http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Kor%27kro...100/14/60/max/
Nazgrim - http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/General_N...100/14/60/max/
Malkorok - http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Malkorok/25H/100/14/60/max/
Spoils - http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spoils_of...100/14/60/max/
Thok - http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Thok_the_...100/14/60/max/
Blackfuse + Paragons + Garrosh is missing data but Warcraftlogs has some if you want to check them.

Straight up dps representation in SoO from ret is high, yeah we suffer single target. We knew we would way before progress even started, our dps (in general) is 100% acceptable for what we bring to raids. Go play the "But we're dps, we should be brought for dps only!" card, it's pointless.

[Vizardlorde]

This sounds terrible to me. Why would I want to spend HoPo on something that does less damage than TV? This is the problem with 'replacing' Inquisition with a damage-dealing button--it's going to be superfluous. Either it'll be strong enough to obsolete another rotational button or it'll be weak and not worth using. People who say 'Inquisition doesn't add anything to the gameplay' haven't been putting forth anything I've seen that has. Taking a button away isn't going to make Ret more complex or harder to play.

Why do you spend HoPo on inquisition? The point is to add a little bit more sustained DPS, making Inquisition a bit more satisfying and not losing as much pressure on PvP when using Inq over TV.

[Zabannith]

Ret was >very< strong going into progression single target this tier, but gear just made a much bigger impact on other classes/specs.

Agreed 100% here ,we just don't scale nearly as well at some other classes , I noticed it myself , dps is lower relative to other classes now that we have much better gear than when t16 first started .

This doesn't mean we're in a bad spot however , and some people can't seem to see that

[Smitus]

Straight up dps representation in SoO from ret is high, yeah we suffer single target. We knew we would way before progress even started, our dps (in general) is 100% acceptable for what we bring to raids. Go play the "But we're dps, we should be brought for dps only!" card, it's pointless.

Basically this. Ret's are THE strongest single target or even overall dps at the moment. But rets DO bring
a) more utility than basically every other class
b) good single target dps
c) great aoe dps
d) one of the best classes for personal survivability & helping your healers out

Basically ret isn't the top tip dps at the moment, but you would have have to be a really dumb raid leader to not recognize the great overall value rets bring to raid

[KurenaiXIII]

Why do you spend HoPo on inquisition? The point is to add a little bit more sustained DPS, making Inquisition a bit more satisfying and not losing as much pressure on PvP when using Inq over TV.

I don't PVP, so I can't comment on that. I spend HoPo on Inqusition because it's there. But, see, I don't think another HoPo-spending damage dealing ability is what we need, because we have those already--we have TV and we have DS. So unless you make a HoPo spender that does something other than just damage, then it's pointless.

I get it. Inquisition can be baked into something else and/or just made a passive 30% damage+10% crit boost and we won't have to cast it anymore. My contention is that removing it doesn't make the gameplay any better, and turning it into another damage-dealing button wouldn't either. Any button you hit on the regular or semi-regular is going to be 'boring', sorry. I don't get a particularly high amount of joy out of popping GoAK/AW, even if they are huge DPS increases, and I don't get amazed when I get to hit HoW.

So I just don't see these claims that turning Inquisition into a damage-dealing button will magically turn it 'fun'. No single button is gonna do that. Give it interaction, sure, but just 'moar damage butan' isn't gonna cut it.

[Smitus]

Inq is like Divine Purpose in that some like it and some don't, which makes for a great talent. Why can't it be part of tier 75?

The issue is that Inq is so strong that it would be a required talent. Not picking it would be a HUGE dps loss.
Even if blizzard balances inq to be roughly equal to DP, who would pick DP?
It's RNG based, makes the rotation more difficult than it is with inq, and provides less flexibility than an inq-based rotation.

[Lumineus]

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Iron_Jugg...14/60/default/
there you go, if you're gonna claim WoL statistics as "facts" at least put it to the proper filter and not the bullshit one...
Even with that filter it doesn't show the full picture, please stop using logs for something they're not intended for.

I still see a 90k delta. Although I disagree with your assertion that "all parses" is "bullshit" and that top 100 is a better measure of AVERAGE performance. Why don't you use 99th percentile of Top 100 to see the "real" "proper" filter? But then again, you were the one who argued about top parsers all having dumb luck from extra crits which made lolol noxxic's sims better at modelling real world performance than, you know, real world data. Didn't we HAVE this argument already?

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Because simc shows the average over 50k iterations, WoL parses shows WAY above the average that Simc shows. But you're right, we had this argument before, let's not derail this thread more. You're set in your ways and I'm set in mine.

[Fredzilla]

Still real curious as to what our 3rd lvl 100 talent will be now. Wish theyd just tell us since all the other talents for everyone else are still out there already.

[Nivena]

We've already seen Lore talking in chat about how Inquisition is being removed for Paladins. [...]

@49:26

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Yeah Lore has absolutely nothing to do with class balancing, he's a Community Manager. Not saying that he couldn't have picked up the information in house from blizzard or told to share it on his twitter feed but until things are actually confirmed I won't care too much about it :P

[Vash The Stampede]

I keep repeating myself, but people just want their own class/spec to be OP/really strong. There is nothing wrong with ret because 90% of everyones raiding will be "Bring the player, not the class".

90% of raiding consists of bad dps. If you're proficient as playing Ret, then nobody will notice, because they don't have a good grasp on how to play their class efficiently. But if you ever venture into Heroic raiding guilds that aren't casual, they won't bother with you.

Almost no guild is gonna bench you because you're a ret unless 1: You are bad or 2: Someone is better or 3: Leadership is bad.

Actually my guild is probably ready to have me go Holy. My dps is constantly at the bottom of the meters, except for a few AOE fights, which don't matter. Right now we're working on paragons of the klaxxi, which you can't AOE, but since Divine Storm is part of my single target rotation I look good overall on the meters, but my raid leaders don't look at that, they look at the targets they want killed. On nearly all occasions I'm at the bottom. So my raid leader is constantly on my case about it.

The whole Divine Storm 4pc Tier proc is hiding the fact we can't do crap worth of single target dps. It may fool the bad raid leaders when you're padding the meters, but not the good ones. Nobody in Heroic raids cares about AOE. In most fights my raid prefers single target over AOE. Even in a fight like Galakras, they want the Shaman dead, and call out to single target that and stop padding the meters.

There are no other Paladins in my guild, so a Holy Paladin is something they need, but I hate healing. If I have to heal for the rest of Heroic progression, I'd rather quit the game. I'd claim that's as far Ret in MOP allowed me to go and consider it a personal achievement.

[Tylanthia]

One of the thing that is frustrating is when people make empirical arguments (ret is worst melee, ret has poor survivability, ret is x% underpowered) and don't provide the data for their assertion. You can't really argue with someone personal experience--but our experiences seem to vary. I think it's more helpful to discuss what we find fun and don't find fun about the class. So, in that regard,

Burst: I find burst fun because you need to think ahead and plan when to use it most effectively. Too many cool-downs can be frustrating though.

Personal cooldowns: I enjoy trying to minimize my damage via active abilities. In that regard, I really think Glyph of Templar's Verdict needs to go or be reworked (it's mandatory and not interesting since it's up most of the time at high haste).

Opportunity to fail: I don't find a DPS rotation fun if there isn't a chance I can screw it up under pressure. The mistakes don't have to end up having a major impact, but they must be meaningful. This is why I like inquisition. If you let it drop, at the wrong time, it can negatively impact your dps. But sometimes you do have to choose between refreshing it or using Templar's Verdict right now to kill an add.

Randomness: I find some randomness interesting because it breaks up the monotony of pressing the same buttons over and over. This is why I like the current Divine Storm tier proc and Divine Purpose (Cata). The Art of War could also be interesting if Exorcism wasn't our least powerful spell. I can appreciate too much randomness is frustrating, but I think some unpredictability helps to keep the rotation interesting and fresh. Perhaps the cooldown for Exorcism should be increased while also increasing it's damage.

Utility/off-healing: I find this fun because it gives me something else to think about while doing my DPS rotation. Rets have a lot of utility that we can use to help the raid. This is one reason I'm sad seal of faith will not make it in (looked kind of cool).

Things I don't find fun: no non-targeted AoE in Lei Shi, Execution Sentence without snapshotting, Seal of Righteousness, encounters where you don't move while dpsing, passive abilities that are straight damage increases like our mastery, ret rotation at low haste. I'd totally be down with bringing back consecration under some form as a talent in some form.

My personal opinion is ret is in a pretty good place fun-wise. Just a few tweaks for WoD (with AoE rotation especially) and we'll be fine. I'd be interested in what others are looking for funwise for WoD.

[Smitus]

The whole Divine Storm 4pc Tier proc is hiding the fact we can't do crap worth of single target dps. It may fool the bad raid leaders when you're padding the meters, but not the good ones. Nobody in Heroic raids cares about AOE. In most fights my raid prefers single target over AOE. Even in a fight like Galakras, they want the Shaman dead, and call out to single target that and stop padding the meters.

This is just factually wrong. Ret's are not on the bottom of the single target damage meters

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yeah Lore has absolutely nothing to do with class balancing, he's a Community Manager. Not saying that he couldn't have picked up the information in house from blizzard or told to share it on his twitter feed but until things are actually confirmed I won't care too much about it :P

At most he's just saying "Oh well this ability is going bai bai" He's just communicating what the devs have done as his job. I'm sure he has his own personal opinion on the matter. Admittingly most of his posts seem to be related to PVP. I like him for his activity.

This is just factually wrong. Ret's are not on the bottom of the single target damage meters

No, not at all. We're still having issues. Not as much as rogues though.

[Majestian]

I would like to see more unique abilities based on our class lore ("The Light!"). They could have short prayer or "empowered weapon" animations.

One that comes to mind (I only play paladin, so I don't know if other classes have something similar) would be a damage increase ability where we draw in power from The Light (a short, visible animation like Tirion's iceblock escape, in reverse), with any enemy within 3-5 yards taking damage ticks and any friendlies receiving healing ticks, before our weapon glows with golden light and we land a massive strike on the main target for a certain amount of damage. Duration could be affected by Holy Power, the ticks lasting 1 second longer for every Holy Power?