[WoD] Retribution Paladin Megathread

[rad586]

Hahaha exactly. Those warriors... blizzard should rename "shout" spells to "cry" they are so good at that.

I'm still waiting for them to remove spells like light's hammer. Useless talent.

Oi oi oi. Light's Hammer is uber amazing ! Celestalon listed it as our raid utility !!!! /sarcasm

[nyc81991]

Hahaha exactly. Those warriors... blizzard should rename "shout" spells to "cry" they are so good at that.

I'm still waiting for them to remove spells like light's hammer. Useless talent.

I like Light's Hammer, in terms of looks it is awesome. It just isn't tuned high enough to be worth taking in most situations.

One thing I'm seriously hoping for is getting our talents balanced so we have more viable options. I feel like we have less viable choices than before the talent revamp which makes no sense. And Blizzard essentially ignored adjusting talents for Ret all expansion. They talked about making things like Sacred Shield better for Ret, But ended up only changing things for Holy Paladins... Like what?

A lot of our talents as Ret shouldn't even really be talents in the first place. Like our movement tier, we use to have Pursuit of Justice and Long Arm of The Law. Now we have to choose between them. And for Ret Long Arm is the obvious choice due to using judgment so often. Speed of Light has way to long of a Cd for no reason. It should be more like 25 - 30 seconds for Ret, not 45.

[Deleted]

Oi oi oi. Light's Hammer is uber amazing ! Celestalon listed it as our raid utility !!!! /sarcasm

yet it competes with ES, which does seem to be a bad design choice, seem to recall stripping DM of the DK talents to avoid such an issue...
Yay, even buying their moronic logic still leaves a gargantuan hole.

[rad586]

Heh, Dakeshii is bombarding Celestalon with his tweets Yet he still fails to see the problem with utility shared betwean all 3 specs.

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...51353805701120

[Armourboy]

The way things are going it will be less than a month from release, and someone is going to tap one of the devs on the shoulder and be like "Hey we still haven't touched ret at all." There is going to be an oh crap moment and they'll throw something together that passes for playable with next to no testing and we'll either be buffed or nerfed to be brought back in line after release and the "90 is not end game don't worry" goes away.

Overall I'm not too impressed with the secondary stats at all. Miss the tiny abom

At the rate they're going might as well (and need to) take us back to the drawing board.

Nah it will be like initial launch, completely scrap the class 7 days prior to launch, throw some crap together and then spend the next 5-6 years trying to figure out wtf the class is even good for outside of Raid Utility

[Vash The Stampede]

Heh, Dakeshii is bombarding Celestalon with his tweets Yet he still fails to see the problem with utility shared betwean all 3 specs.

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...51353805701120

I love the response.

@Dakeshii What's important about it being Ret-specific, though? Ret and Prot/Holy aren't competing for raid slots with each other.

Sometimes I must bow to the absurd.

[nyc81991]

I love the response.



Sometimes I must bow to the absurd.

How can he really be balancing this game if he doesn't understand why it's important to not share all utility with other specs... This is a huge problem / reason why Ret isn't useful in rated PvP. You are much better off taking a Holy Paladin for the utility and a Warrior for dps.

[nyc81991]

The issue is easily solved if people focus on the actual problems. Most post in this thread is about numbers and scaling and deeps and trolling and sarcasm whatever thing that does not matter right now. I already said it once, but it's easy to ignore people's feedback when said feedback is shit/doesn't have any value because tuning and numbers will come later.

Scaling could get away as a valid issue, Exorcism and Sword of Light is a good example.

I think it's really straight forward. Number's are something that we don't need to worry about right now. It's how Retribution is going to play / function in WoD. If they don't make our 4 set baseline our rotation is going to be extremely boring. If they think that Ret sharing the same utility as Holy and Prot has no effect that is an issue. I've said it many times, but Retribution Aura makes the most sense for Ret utility. Have it be passive with an active cd effect and that easily makes us bring something that can help the raid and isn't brought by Holy or Prot.

If they do those things I feel that Ret will be great as long as numbers are tuned well. Which isn't something to worry about until mid beta.

[Tylanthia]

The issue is easily solved if people focus on the actual problems. Most post in this thread is about numbers and scaling and deeps and trolling and sarcasm whatever thing that does not matter right now.

I'd agree with you about scaling--but, in the actual game, guilds aren't always rational. I already have friends who are being told most if not all melee will sit for progression for mythic, for example (due to weapon damage adjustment). To put it another way, as WoD design is right now, there is no reason to bring a ret you wouldn't already (assuming we fall under the same spot in the dps pecking order) and signs that, perhaps, we may not end up in as good of a place.

Best of luck regarding the utility discussion with Celestalon though. Maybe you can also get him to think about whether our rotational abilities are really that interesting?

[Zabannith]

Honestly at this point I think Celestalon is just a face man for blizzard with no real power when it comes to design choices.. I think that he's just a PR man there to try and keep the masses from rioting, I think theres somebody else behind scenes who has the real power when it comes to design choices and they have a vision for ret and paladin class as a whole and it differs very very much from what we would like to see ret become.

[PaladinBash]

if u missed it, here is our raid utility for wod according to Celestalon: http://puu.sh/8YkW7/88bd081b38.png ...

This is the most painful thing I've ever read about Ret. Not only are almost all of those things pretty useless as utility but some are exclusive talents and most of them are useless. He lists them off as if they are all amazing things. He makes it seem like Light's Hammer is a Bladestorm and Tranquility on an instant cast spell with a short cooldown. I love the spell and wish it was good but damn that is painful to read.

They took away Holy's wings and Illumination and rolled their effects into Wings...so why can't we have it too? Why must the same spell be different for both specs?

[nyc81991]

I just think Blizzard doesn't understand things from the perspective of a Ret Paladin. Our best chance is tweeting them with serious and realistic suggestions.

[nyc81991]

I can easily see where Celestalon is coming from because he has a very big perspective to look at things at. Majority here only looks at Retribution from a Retribution perspective, not taking into account every other factor there is.

People say the issue with out utility is that it's single target for example, but that's not true. There's just no use for it in encounters. Our utility is actually really good, but that doesn't do anything when we can't use it because of encounter design.

The only thing out utility needs is something ret unique, or a revamp of the "Hand of X" spells and possibly make them spec unique (Not ret exclusive, but not have them shared across the entire paladin class).

That's why Retribution Aura makes the most sense. Passively it could do X damage to attackers and they could easily add an active cd that increases the damage done by Retribution Aura by X%. This gives Ret unique theme based raid / group utility. It also helps in PvP where Ret is always trained.

I'm more afraid of our rotation if we don't get our Divine Storm proc baseline. Without Inquisition our rotation would literally be spamming the same few buttons over and over.

[Consata]

Current raid mechanics require raid cooldowns. Rogues, DK, Warrior, Monk and Shaman gets that. Only melee without it will be ret and feral. Feels like he thinks our single target raid utility is enough to compensate us, but how many raid mechanics has required this in mist? Lei Shi, Zor'lok and Thok is the only once i can remember it being "required" to have a paladin for our hands, but even then it was mostly prot or holy paladins doing it. Zor'lok you could even have a holy paladin heal at the echo. They need to decide if its going to be healers and tanks bringing raid cooldowns or if dps gets it aswell, if we do get it aswell everyone needs to have one or those classes will be sat for bosses that require raid cooldowns (look at mages in siege). I dont mind if noone gets it, but you cant leave out a few specs like they are doing atm.

Ofc, this only comes into play if they dont drasticly change the way raid mechanics work in that you wont be needing a raid cooldown for hard hitting raid wide abilties like Whirl or Garrosh. (yeah not gonna happen)

[Lumineus]

People say the issue with out utility is that it's single target for example, but that's not true. There's just no use for it in encounters.

Well, that isn't true either. There's plenty of "use" for Hand of Protection and Hand of Sacrifice and even Hand of Purity in some cases, but because they're single-target, it's not as noticeable unless the effect it gives (one tank Horridon, for example) is overpowered.

As strong as Protection is on Horridon and Purity is on Troll Council, that's how weak they are on Protectors. Because in a fight where a phys. DoT lasts for ages and isn't actually removed by HoP (y hlo thar DB Saurfang), relief from it for a few seconds isn't going to do much of anything unless the encounter is so tightly tuned that it's nearly impossible to heal in appropriate gear.

This also comes back to single-target healing being super-efficient, and all our hands being "prevent or reduce single target damage." So yay, I got three different keybinds for different flavors of Power Word: Shield with cooldowns that range from "long" to "excessive."

[anaxie]

Heh, Dakeshii is bombarding Celestalon with his tweets Yet he still fails to see the problem with utility shared betwean all 3 specs.

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...51353805701120

Celestalon is a fucking idiot

- - - Updated - - -

Well, that isn't true either. There's plenty of "use" for Hand of Protection and Hand of Sacrifice and even Hand of Purity in some cases, but because they're single-target, it's not as noticeable unless the effect it gives (one tank Horridon, for example) is overpowered.

As strong as Protection is on Horridon and Purity is on Troll Council, that's how weak they are on Protectors. Because in a fight where a phys. DoT lasts for ages and isn't actually removed by HoP (y hlo thar DB Saurfang), relief from it for a few seconds isn't going to do much of anything unless the encounter is so tightly tuned that it's nearly impossible to heal in appropriate gear.

This also comes back to single-target healing being super-efficient, and all our hands being "prevent or reduce single target damage." So yay, I got three different keybinds for different flavors of Power Word: Shield with cooldowns that range from "long" to "excessive."

You don't get what hes saying. ITS NOT NEEDED. the one target you would sac doesn't need it. The RAID needs damage reduction. Not one single person this is espeically true in SoO. If they plan us to use all this shit on CD then we should be tuned using it in mind as in.

If our "hands" are our showcased utility then they need to fucking expand upon them. Make Hand of Protection block Magic or Physical. Glyph that shit.

- - - Updated - - -

Or in the case of ret we literally COULD be the first support class in WoW history. Ret specific. Hands have no Cooldown but the same hand cannot be placed on the target for 30 sec or something.

- - - Updated - - -

Pretty much means you could hand multiple people. This would make ret a dps class or a highly skill based DPS/Support Hybrid.

[ykiigor]

Main problem of this *ton* utilities is that every other class can same, but better. Need Sacred Shield - take disc, Lay on Hands - MW monk, Hand of Sacrifice - warriror/rdru/disc, Hand of Freedom - shaman, Light's Hammer - what do healers in your raid? As result paladins (not only ret) have many "useless" spells (compared to other classes), low output dps/heal (because this spells) and totaly sucks, because Divine Shield is (surprise, surprise) raid utility

[anaxie]

Cept hundreds of effects ret could soak go through Divine shield meanwhile. Greater Invis / Warlocks / shadow priests eat high damage effects.

- - - Updated - - -

each new boss is like WILL IT FLOAT?!?! for ret cept in our case its CAN IT SOAK CAN I BUBBLE THE DEBUFF. More often then not it's LOLNOPE.

- - - Updated - - -

Current raid mechanics require raid cooldowns. Rogues, DK, Warrior, Monk and Shaman gets that. Only melee without it will be ret and feral. Feels like he thinks our single target raid utility is enough to compensate us, but how many raid mechanics has required this in mist? Lei Shi, Zor'lok and Thok is the only once i can remember it being "required" to have a paladin for our hands, but even then it was mostly prot or holy paladins doing it. Zor'lok you could even have a holy paladin heal at the echo. They need to decide if its going to be healers and tanks bringing raid cooldowns or if dps gets it aswell, if we do get it aswell everyone needs to have one or those classes will be sat for bosses that require raid cooldowns (look at mages in siege). I dont mind if noone gets it, but you cant leave out a few specs like they are doing atm.

Ofc, this only comes into play if they dont drasticly change the way raid mechanics work in that you wont be needing a raid cooldown for hard hitting raid wide abilties like Whirl or Garrosh. (yeah not gonna happen)

sha of fear Hand of Purity

[anaxie]

overall the ret toolkit is terrible especially with things like Forberance existing limiting hands use. As you said Dakeshi-san they need to do MORE with the abilitiys Hand of Sac absolve... still too many "magic" effects it doesn't remove. Personally being single target and having a CD it should fucking wipe the target clean period.

BOOM ret ultilty.

Secondly ret only glyph Hand of protection is now magic protection useful for melee dps / tanks / soaking a boss debuff. WOW amazing we just created ret utility!

it's shit like this.

OR HOW ABOUT FREEDOM REMOVES SNARES AND IS A MOVE SPEED INCREASE. OH MY GOD /GASP

Suddenly you see these 3 hands used 500% more outside PvP.

- - - Updated - - -

its silly. Okay hands are our ultilty whatever. FUCKING EXPAND UPON THEM

[Kelemar]

Still, Hands are not Ret exclusive. If our passive "Absolve" would expand upon the hands though, leaving Prot/Holy with the normal version, that could work.