[WoD] Holy Paladin Megathread

[Bloodorem]

denounce.

base regen is set high enough that spam casting denounce doesn't make you lose mana, you gain mana (although it's better to say denounce spam is mana-neutral). you have it, congratulations. now please worry about things that matter. you may think i hate paladins, but that's not true, i just want you to focus on things that actually matter.

Actually i wont deny this but you can't possibly know this, you can only say this on level92, again i won't deny that it's possible, i just think only blizzard knows the answer. And they proved to completely ignore Holy Paladins till now.

on the topics that matter, i guess we would love to discuss things but as long as blizzard doesn't event comment on holy paladins (i think i saw not even 0 tweet about holy till now) where they see us in WoD and what they want to do with us, the only thing we can do is cry for attention.

[mcbubble]

If memory serves - during the MOP beta testing, Holy Pallies were basically ignored with little to no feedback until the end.
Same thing - different expansion.
Do what I did fellas - re-roll or quit

[Dubalicious]

it's interesting to see paladins care more about doing inconsequential damage rather than having the ability to aoe heal better than a shadow priest

Who's stopping you from discussing AoE healing?

You certainly aren't going to stop the rest of us from discussing whatever we feel the desire to discuss.

At the end of the day, healer damage is something I really wish wasn't even a valid discussion topic - but it has become one with newly presented information, hence the discussion.

[ykiigor]

Just info, base mp5 for lvl 100 will be same as now in mop (2% / 5 sec) (Celestalon)
And spells cost (for compare live with current alpha-beta build)
Holy (Divine) Light - 7.2% (Live) vs 2.3% (Beta)
Holy Radiance - 7.2% vs 8.8%
Flash of Light - 7.56% vs 4.6%
Holy Shock - 1.6% vs 1.42%

[btard]

At the end of the day, healer damage is something I really wish wasn't even a valid discussion topic - but it has become one with newly presented information, hence the discussion.

it's a valid discussion topic since invention of atonement and fistweavers. you just keep ignoring the facts:

* one 20ppl raid format will allow beter tuning and tighter berserk timers.
* no more bear tranquility. this leads to an absolute minimum of healers that are required to pass an encounter. you cant take 1 healer less and cover big nukes with raid cds - there are not enough of them

that means that you can pack your 20ppl with 4 dc/fistweavers and get a +1 dps out of nowhere. once your guild facec berserk timer holy paladin would be #1 person to get swapped because others have better tools to contribute to raid dps (like hotw, elementals or natural dpsheal spec). if blizzard does not understand this in time, paladins will be moved out of progression raiding

[Floopa]

it's a valid discussion topic since invention of atonement and fistweavers. you just keep ignoring the facts:
* one 20ppl raid format will allow beter tuning and tighter berserk timers.
* no more bear tranquility. this leads to an absolute minimum of healers that are required to pass an encounter. you cant take 1 healer less and cover big nukes with raid cds - there are not enough of them
that means that you can pack your 20ppl with 4 dc/fistweavers and get a +1 dps out of nowhere. once your guild facec berserk timer holy paladin would be #1 person to get swapped because others have better tools to contribute to raid dps (like hotw, elementals or natural dpsheal spec). if blizzard does not understand this in time, paladins will be moved out of progression raiding

except paladins are #1 tank healers right now by a big distance, and if you think mythic damage is going to be covered via pure fistweaving/atonement then you're not thinking clearly.

tank healing is going to be a necessity, and paladins do it best. right now druids/holy priests and paladins are the best healers, discs and mistweavers are actually kinda bad (ofc subject to change, no raid testing blah blah but this is more mechanics + methods of healing dmg more so than numbers/environment: rem + uplift < renew + coh / rejuv + wg etc).

[btard]

Just info, base mp5 for lvl 100 will be same as now in mop (2% / 5 sec) (Celestalon)
And spells cost (for compare live with current alpha-beta build)
Holy (Divine) Light - 7.2% (Live) vs 2.3% (Beta)
Holy Radiance - 7.2% vs 8.8%
Flash of Light - 7.56% vs 4.6%
Holy Shock - 1.6% vs 1.42%

You'll never end up in a situation where you run OOM and are unable to cast anything.

looks like the numbers are not final

except paladins are #1 tank healers right now by a big distance

if you mean prot... yes. if you mean holy - we are worst tank healers since like 4.0. simply no tools for that. we are - probably - good several-target-heares, but we cant focus our throughput into one.

[Jackielope]

it's interesting to see paladins care more about doing inconsequential damage rather than having the ability to aoe heal better than a shadow priest

lol

if you think atonement/crane stance is a "free pass" in mythic, i'm going to call you out because what will happen is you'll just replace that healer doing 50/50 with a dps who does 0/100 and be done with it because you'll gain more from dropping the healer than you would dropping the dpser.

Our shit AOE healing has already been brought up, so I didn't feel a need to rehash it. I do feel the need to post about some of our other problems though, of which crappy DPS even for a healer is one. I'm not suggesting we get anywhere near the DPS the proper spec can do, or even close to what tanks will, but an actually interesting way to deal damage when healing isn't needed (such as questing or perhaps a burn phase) would be wonderful. Some way to meaningfully spend HoPo on damage would be nice too since the Harsh Words glyph is such a small gain that it's basically not worth using.

[Floopa]

if you mean prot... yes. if you mean holy - we are worst tank healers since like 4.0. simply no tools for that. we are - probably - good several-target-heares, but we cant focus our throughput into one.

okay you don't have alpha so you don't know what you're talking about

on alpha paladins blow everyone out of the ocean when the question of tank healing is asked.

[Simulacrum]

denounce.

base regen is set high enough that spam casting denounce doesn't make you lose mana, you gain mana (although it's better to say denounce spam is mana-neutral). you have it, congratulations. now please worry about things that matter. you may think i hate paladins, but that's not true, i just want you to focus on things that actually matter.

"Mana neutral" or "you regenerate faster than you spend your mana" is not even remotely the same as "free". See, "free" is something you want to do every time you have the chance, or when there's nothing to heal. "Mana neutral" damage is something you never want to do unless mana is not an issue... in which case who cares that it's mana neutral? We can do that already.

[btard]

on alpha paladins blow everyone out of the ocean when the question of tank healing is asked.

in 5 mans?

[Floopa]

"Mana neutral" or "you regenerate faster than you spend your mana" is not even remotely the same as "free". See, "free" is something you want to do every time you have the chance, or when there's nothing to heal. "Mana neutral" damage is something you never want to do unless mana is not an issue... in which case who cares that it's mana neutral? We can do that already.

that's what he means when he says free

no healer does "free damage". every spell costs mana.

- - - Updated - - -

in 5 mans?

yes, and if they're the best in 5 mans then they'll be even better when the double beacon talent is healing 2 tanks at once.

[btard]

yes, and if they're the best in 5 mans then they'll be even better when the double beacon talent is healing 2 tanks at once.

you probably dont understand it. holy paladin contributes to tank healing. this contribution is quite large - about 40% of your throughput goes to beacons. in 5ppl this allows you to keep tank alive while doing different healing tasks.

in raid setup your tank healing should end on that passive beacon contribution. you lose your throughput once you start trying to focus your healing on one of the tanks. that's why you need another dedicated healer (not paladin) who will bomb low-health tank with single target heals while you continue rolling 1hp eternal flames on the raid.

[Floopa]

in raid setup your tank healing should end on that passive beacon contribution. you lose your throughput once you start trying to focus your healing on one of the tanks. that's why you need another dedicated healer (not paladin) who will bomb low-health tank with single target heals while you continue rolling 1hp eternal flames on the raid.

its hard to take paladins seriously when they say this

do you read patch notes at all? 1 hp EF is dead.

[Freia]

you probably dont understand it. holy paladin contributes to tank healing. this contribution is quite large - about 40% of your throughput goes to beacons. in 5ppl this allows you to keep tank alive while doing different healing tasks.

in raid setup your tank healing should end on that passive beacon contribution. you lose your throughput once you start trying to focus your healing on one of the tanks. that's why you need another dedicated healer (not paladin) who will bomb low-health tank with single target heals while you continue rolling 1hp eternal flames on the raid.

You are still healing the raid with 1 hp eternal flames? You realize that died in 5.4, right? And today you don't need another healer to bomb single target heals on the tank, because smart healing takes care of the healing tanks don't cover themselves.

[btard]

1 hp EF - 25 sec shield, full scale hot
2 hp EF - 35 sec shield, full scale hot
3 hp EF - 45 sec shield, full scale hot

right now there is no reason not to cast 1hp EF because it has no downsides. you get less overhealing from initial heal, more shields per holy power, full scale hot on everyone and more ppl covered

You are still healing the raid with 1 hp eternal flames? You realize that died in 5.4, right? And today you don't need another healer to bomb single target heals on the tank, because smart healing takes care of the healing tanks don't cover themselves.

right now i do HS-J-HR-LoD until i go OOM. then i do HS-J-Nothing-LoD until i stack 3 stacks of SH on every possible encounter. probably because EF does not stack mastery.

[Floopa]

2 things:

> SH dies in WoD
> 1 HP EF dies in WoD

you will cast 3 HP finishers all the time, never 1 or 2.

and yes, paladins are the best tank healers on alpha ATM because they have the best mechanics for it.

[btard]

did they remove 1hp EF casts from the game? or did they make some mechanics that makes 3hp finisher a better choice like pvp set? if the answer is no then nothing can stop me from using 1-2hp finishers all the time i want to

[Floopa]

did they remove 1hp EF casts from the game? or did they make some mechanics that makes 3hp finisher a better choice like pvp set? if the answer is no then nothing can stop me from using 1-2hp finishers all the time i want to

like i said, read patch notes:

"Consumes up to 3 Holy Power to place a protective Holy flame on a friendly target, which heals them for (88.1969% of Spell power) and an additional (16.0285% of Spell power) every 2 sec for 10 sec. Initial healing amount and heal over time duration increased per charge of Holy Power. The heal over time is increased by 50% if used on the Paladin."

also all HP spenders have a 1.5 sec cast.

[btard]

i probably should try to explain this simple thing again

if you cast 1hp fininsher you get 10 secs of hot + 15 secs of mastery. that means 25s total shield duration
if you cast 3hp finisher you get 30 secs of hot + 15 secs of mastery. that means 45s total shield duration or 15s of shield duration per holy power spent.

as you can see it's still more beneficial to use 1 or 2 hp finishers to cover the entire raid with mastery shields. the cast time on EF doesnt change anything since you spend the same 1.5s of time for an instant cast.