Feedback on New Loot System

[bushkanaka86]

My guild just combined our 10 man teams to make a 25 man team in preparation for Mythic raiding. In our 10 man raiding, we did a simple roll for loot distribution but with 25 of us, we decided to adopt a new loot system. I came up with an idea and I was wanting some feedback to try and find the negative aspects of this system so I can adjust to compensate.

I plan to design an add-on to manage this loot system but while I work on it, we can begin by using a simple spreadsheet then switching over to the add-on when it is complete.

You could consider this a DKP system since it uses points, but not in the conventional sense. Basically, every member of the raid and bench has a chance to "earn" up to 10 points toward a couple pieces of gear that is use-able by their spec. However, I use "earn" lightly because most points are pre-assigned.

Here is the big dream once the add-on is fully functional:

The add-on will have the ability to select different tiers of loot to stay relevant for new content and it will have a list of every piece of gear that drops in a particular tier. (Most likely with filters such as boss, slot, and class/spec.) I would love to be able to have the add-on communicate with the Mr. Robot add-on so it could even highlight items in my add-on that are an upgrade or BIS for your current stat ratio. This is a bit of a stretch though.

Everyone in the raid would get 2 votes each week. Before the raid begins on Tuesday, everyone would use the add-on to select 2 pieces of gear that they want this week and submit it which would be sent to the loot master's add-on. By voting, the raider is assigning 5 points toward that particular item.

The add-on would also track attendance and assign some points based on that. Not sure on the percentages yet, but something like, 95%+ attendance is 3 points, 90%+ is 2 points, and 80%+ is 1 point. These attendance points would be assigned to all pieces of gear eligible for that class/spec. For example, if I attended every raid, I would automatically have 3 points on every piece of cloth spirit gear before I even voted.

Finally, any piece of gear that was BIS would be worth 2 more points. I am not sure how to assign just 1 point for this category. So these 2 points would be nearly constant, pre-assigned, and only change due to a patch.

Every raider could potentially have 10 points for 2 pieces of gear. 2 BIS points that would be constant, 3 attendance points that should hopefully stay nearly constant, and then 5 voting points. This way, every piece of gear would have points assigned to it before the raid. As a healing priest with perfect attendance, I would have 3 points on every normal upgrade and 5 points on every BIS piece before the raid started. In this way and assuming no votes cast, I would beat any other healer with less than perfect attendance on the same piece or any PUG that fills in. However, if a PUG votes for that item, we would have a tie. If a pug votes for that item and it is BIS for them, they would have 7 points and win.

In the case of a tie, I am unsure if it is best to do a simple roll or pass the item to the person with the lower item level then roll if the item level ties. Raiders that are on trial and PUG raiders would only have a max point value of 7, so if they choose the same item as a regular raider, they will never win. However, it would be in their best interest to vote for an item that is an upgrade, but not BIS.

Additional features of the add-on would be that once all votes were cast, the loot master could then broadcast the results so everyone's add-on updates and there is no mystery on who is winning which items. Once the items drop, the add-on could show a loot window for the loot master that allows him to assign all loot to the winners with a single click making distribution incredibly fast. In this way, it could also track who receives loot .

Benefits:

-Main spec always receives loot over off spec since there is technically no limit to how much gear a raider can receive
-PUGs and bench raiders have a chance of getting loot if they vote wisely, but maybe not BIS.
-Loot distribution can be quick and easy
-Very minimal effort on behalf of the officers. (Add-on tracks attendance, points, and accepts votes.)
-Raiders who show up more often are rewarded but don't have to worry about getting points via boss kills or wipes.


Negatives:

-BIS could be considered subjective and may require extra effort from the officer to keep that set up
-Requires everyone to have an extra add-on unless voting was done through in-game mail.
-Anything else?

Some possible adjustments include a "bad luck" feature where every week you don't receive loot you get an extra vote. Also, the vote could count as 6 points while BIS is only 1. In that sense, a PUG who votes for an item will always win over a raider who doesn't vote for that item.

Feedback?

[Qualia]

1) Any loot system that allow a PuG to win anything over a guild raider in a guild run is flawed.
2) Your loot system, like some other DKP loot systems, encourage people to plan their points (or in your case, "votes") instead of always going for their upgrades, which may open a can of worms - just check DKP systems' flaws, your loot system will have all of those, and more.
i.e:
What if someone's voted loot doesn't drop? Yes, he get extra vote (s), but he pretty much wasted his votes that week while there are still upgrades available, and will be unhappy.
What if item A is a better upgrade for your best performance X, but Y has more point even when Y is one of your worst raiders?
etc.
3) Related to 2. It may lead to a result that won't be benefit for your raid progression.

So all in all, what's your aim? If you want progression, just stick with the tested and used systems - be it DKP, EPGP or LC. If you don't want to progress and just raid casually, then whatever will do, why bother making a new addon and new system that potentially cause you headache?

[Teevo]

Why even do this complicated stuff with loot? Just don't recruit douchebag loot whores and you'll be fine. If people can discuss loot in an intelligent and respectful manner, there should be no problem.

If it comes to needing a loot system, use loot council but only if the people on it aren't idiots or loot whores themselves. Hell, a person on the loot council doesn't have to be an officer if they've got a good head on their shoulders and are able to remain objective.

[bushkanaka86]

1) Any loot system that allow a PuG to win anything over a guild raider in a guild run is flawed.
2) Your loot system, like some other DKP loot systems, encourage people to plan their points (or in your case, "votes") instead of always going for their upgrades, which may open a can of worms - just check DKP systems' flaws, your loot system will have all of those, and more.
i.e:
What if someone's voted loot doesn't drop? Yes, he get extra vote (s), but he pretty much wasted his votes that week while there are still upgrades available, and will be unhappy.
What if item A is a better upgrade for your best performance X, but Y has more point even when Y is one of your worst raiders?
etc.
3) Related to 2. It may lead to a result that won't be benefit for your raid progression.

So all in all, what's your aim? If you want progression, just stick with the tested and used systems - be it DKP, EPGP or LC. If you don't want to progress and just raid casually, then whatever will do, why bother making a new addon and new system that potentially cause you headache?

Well, I suppose I forgot to mention that, personally, I think loot council is the best way to do progression raiding. However, my guild essentially voted against loot council and wanted a different system. The problem with designing a loot system which prevents PUGs/fill-in guild members from getting any loot is why would they ever want to join? If we could guarantee a full clear, they may come for an achievement but what is the motivation to come wipe for 3 hours on the same boss over and over again?

The difference between my system and other DKP systems is that the points don't have to be "spent" in order to get an upgrade. In other systems, you either have to spend your hard earned points for an upgrade or a potential upgrade could go to someone's offspec or worse, get DE'd. In my system, all gear will go to main specs first even if no one voted for it. The only advantage anyone will have is whether they show up to raids or not and that advantage will be minimal, but enough. Just by showing up, they will still get upgrades based on their attendance and BIS gear. The vote is to just give them a slightly better chance at a couple pieces of gear instead of being complete up to /roll and RNG.

If someone votes and doesn't get their piece, then that is just luck and they still have a good chance of getting another piece of gear that they didn't vote for. Even on an open roll system, if we kill a boss and the boss doesn't drop a single item I can use, does that mean I am mad and quit or stick around in case an upgrade does drop next time I can use. Same with the vote. Just cause that item doesn't drop doesn't mean you won't get a chance at loot later. Example: Somehow we have an item drop that wasn't BIS but is an upgrade for 7 different raid member. Only 5 of those raid members have 95% attendance so they have 3 points and, rightly so, have a a better chance at the loot as a reward for their dedication. Now, the item could either go to the player with the lowest item level in that slot or we could do a 5 way roll which wouldn't be much different than how it works now except the chance for our dedicated raiders to win is higher than it would be rolling against all 7.

Basically, this could be viewed as a modified rolling system. Right now, we are just open rolling and whoever can use the upgrade rolls. With this system, we could still use an open roll system but just modify who is allowed to roll for the item to improve the chances of winning.

- - - Updated - - -

Why even do this complicated stuff with loot? Just don't recruit douchebag loot whores and you'll be fine. If people can discuss loot in an intelligent and respectful manner, there should be no problem.

If it comes to needing a loot system, use loot council but only if the people on it aren't idiots or loot whores themselves. Hell, a person on the loot council doesn't have to be an officer if they've got a good head on their shoulders and are able to remain objective.

I agree. Unfortunately, the guild has voted against a loot council and I am not even the leader or even an officer. I am just trying to figure out the best method for my guild based on their current desire.

[Notdev]

When we go to Mythic, we plan to just /roll with light loot counciling and regular raiders being priority over trials.

By light loot counciling, basically just smartly handling weapons/tier/trinkets. Allowing someone with heroic 3 set to get a mythic piece to get his 4 set over allowing someone who already has their 4 set, giving trinkets to people who don't have any version over someone who has a lower version, etc.

[Spotnick]

easiest is either loot council or epgp. We do a loot council using epgp lootmaster and it's a speedy process.

[Kuruption]

We do a loot council using epgp lootmaster and it's a speedy process.

Same with us.

[Thaylen]

See the "Loot system advice" thread on page 4 (at the time of this writing) by Jaceo. Similar situation with some replies to consider.

The only other thing I want to add, which is a pet peeve of mine, is in regards to AMR. AMR's niche is about helping people understanding the value of certain gear to certain toons. There are tons of RLs like yourself out there crying for some assistance on designing a better tool/system for getting the right loot to the right raiders. They should be all over this. Instead they are spending their time creating a raid log site to compete in a space that World of Logs already has, and Warcraftlogs is going to overtake. There is no demand there for a 3rd player. Frustrates me.

[Deleted]

So wow going same way as diablo now eh? Nice.

[Laerrus]

Do a point reset each time you progress to the next tier of content.

It's not fair to your current raiders when someone that has been inactive for the past tier of content is able to come in and roll on a BiS piece, simply because they saved up points when the guild had the first raid of the x-pac on farm status.

[Deleted]

How will you would out what is BiS?

BiS lists make no sense at all and cannot be applied to a spec just like that.

If a player wants to go to a different haste % or me as a Blood DK want to go to only 200% mastery, how will you work out what my BiS list is?


Just dont.

[Senen]

1) Any loot system that allow a PuG to win anything over a guild raider in a guild run is flawed.

"PuGs have the same rights than guild raiders concerning loot" is one of the main rules in my guild.
Granted we're a rather casual guild (4/14HM, 2 night/week, very slow progress since the Garrosh kill because farming BoA weapons for WoD, etc) so we don't care that much about progress. Still, we kill bosses and somehow progress in the raid and we actually have very reliable PuGs when we need it.

So yeah, I strongly disagree with this point.

[clevin]

Use EPGP. It accommodates PUGs or others that fill in when a core raider isn't available, it can be setup for decay to avoid hoarding. There's an add-on to manage it already (a couple of them) and while I'm sure people can pick at it, it's fine. There's no voting etc... we just did a roll to indicate who was interested and the master looter gave it to the person with the highest EPGP score and their score was adjusted via that assignment.

The system you want to use is complicated, cumbersome and prone to drama (BiS, Tier, etc). Also, if you have people who generate drama over loot KICK THEM NOW. No system will solve that issue.

- - - Updated - - -

"PuGs have the same rights than guild raiders concerning loot" is one of the main rules in my guild.
Granted we're a rather casual guild (4/14HM, 2 night/week, very slow progress since the Garrosh kill because farming BoA weapons for WoD, etc) so we don't care that much about progress. Still, we kill bosses and somehow progress in the raid and we actually have very reliable PuGs when we need it.

So yeah, I strongly disagree with this point.

PUGs need to have some incentive and no decent PUG will ever come raid with you if they only ever get loot that no one wants. Look at it this way - if you're inviting a PUG you need them to make the raid happen. So they're just as valuable to that run as anyone else in the run. Of course, reserving a couple of rare, highly desired pieced would be fine, just tell the PUGs upfront.

Also, PUG needs to be defined - it's very different if it's a regular person who comes with the raid vs a trade channel pickup.

PS: You should not be planning a system meant for a Mythic raiding guild around PUGs. You need to recruit so you have 22-25 core raiders if you want to do Mythic.

[Deleted]

Good players > okay players > bad players should be your loot system. Whoever has the highest hps or dps should have priority over loot. If top healer and top dps want a piece of loot they roll on it. No questions asked.

Once tanks feel comfortable with not dying then they no longer need loot that dps/healers need and it goes to dps and healers. Heroic farm content is about getting your best players to the top.

[clevin]

Good players > okay players > bad players should be your loot system. Whoever has the highest hps or dps should have priority over loot. If top healer and top dps want a piece of loot they roll on it. No questions asked.

Once tanks feel comfortable with not dying then they no longer need loot that dps/healers need and it goes to dps and healers. Heroic farm content is about getting your best players to the top.

Disregard this advice. No competent RL judges a healer especially solely on HPS. Less so now than in the past, but even raw DPS can be a mistake if a fight requires interrupts or has mechanics that occupy a DPS (Orbs on Jinrokh, bombs on Spoils, being focused on Thok.)

If you're raiding Mythic you shouldn't HAVE actually bad players. Weed people who are truly bad out. Be fair with the loot for the ones who stick.

[Adhemar]

"PuGs have the same rights than guild raiders concerning loot" is one of the main rules in my guild.
Granted we're a rather casual guild (4/14HM, 2 night/week, very slow progress since the Garrosh kill because farming BoA weapons for WoD, etc) so we don't care that much about progress. Still, we kill bosses and somehow progress in the raid and we actually have very reliable PuGs when we need it.

So yeah, I strongly disagree with this point.

So much truth right there. If you rely on PUGgers to help you kill bosses, excluding them from loot is pretty much crap, and the better players will quickly figure out to avoid your runs. Maybe if you're on A server with queues you have so many PUGgers than you can afford to make sure they will never come back, but 90% of our 10-man recruitment was done through picking up random people to fill holes and being friendly with the good ones.