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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Which was exactly the case with people complaining about sameface, whether people complained or not, WoD would have launched with no issue of sameface. Because so many people were concerned after seeing the Alpha/Beta footage, they decided to dedicate an Artcraft blog to alleviate everyones concerns. Once that artcraft launches and people's fears of sameface are shot into the sun, people are just going to find something else to complain about anyways. And so the cycle has been for the last 10 years and so it will continue for the next 10 years.
    I like to see things from every possible angle. I could see Robinson's artcraft telling us why what we've seen is close to what we will get, but I hope it's something like you're speculating on. Personally I can see a number of simple ways to do this better than what we've seen so far so I'm more optimistic Once beta is 2 months in, that's when it's time to start getting vocal despite the fact I'm personally uncertain it has ever made a single difference in the slightest.

    Sindorei males being bulkier could have been Blizzard's own decision. Worgen males were I think definitely intended to be updated to their current look long before the 21 days or so of beta forum arguments we had about the issue of "feral worgen" went down in between beta's launch and the new model's patched in beta release, I don't think Worgen female came from complaints either. The original Worgen male and female were clearly despite your opinion over their aesthetic design a generation apart in model and animation fidelity. I think aesthetic preferences are blinding some people to that disparity. Even though despite female worgens model generation being a step forward it had lots of sloppy loose ends in the animation and arguably questionable design fundamentals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    but I've got my torch and pitchfork ready in case the Artcraft on the subject is spent justifying samefaceing the new models.
    If it is, I think the saving grace will be the aforementioned and confirmed expanded customization being patched in later in WOD's life cycle.
    Last edited by Yig; 2014-03-15 at 10:21 PM.
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  2. #162
    Legendary! snuzzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protar View Post
    At this point? No, it's not useful. If Blizzard had yet to acknowledge the issue then sure, pile on the complaints I guess. But they have acknowledged the issue. You've reached the amount of people necessary to get Blizzard's attention so further contribution is to be quite frank pointless. It would be like continuing to complain about Real ID after Blizzard announced they weren't going to go through with it, to continue with your metaphor.

    So please, just wait for the artcraft unless you actually have anything new to say.
    I'm going to go ahead and disagree. Blizz has said "We're going to acknowledge it," but they haven't officially done so yet because the artcraft hasn't been released. They know some people are unhappy, but if we all shut up about it until the official post, it might look like not as many as it is.

    I didn't see Blizzard say anywhere "We're not going to have sameface" like you're implying with your attempted continuation of my metaphor. It's more like they said "We hear your concerns about Real ID and are going to address them in the future." In fact that's pretty much exactly what they've said about the faces of the new models. So, no, you're wrong.

    Here's the thing: every time people have an issue with something in the game, there are always people there to tell them to stop posting. That's something I just don't get. It's not hurting anyone if we do post, and it might be useful, so what's the issue? What do you, or anyone, get out of coming into this thread and telling us to stop? If I think people are wasting their time posting, I let them, because it's their time.
    Last edited by snuzzle; 2014-03-15 at 09:48 PM.

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  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and disagree. Blizz has said "We're going to acknowledge it," but they haven't officially done so yet because the artcraft hasn't been released. They know some people are unhappy, but if we all shut up about it until the official post, it might look like not as many as it is.

    I didn't see Blizzard say anywhere "We're not going to have sameface" like you're implying with your attempted continuation of my metaphor. It's more like they said "We hear your concerns about Real ID and are going to address them in the future." In fact that's pretty much exactly what they've said about the faces of the new models. So, no, you're wrong.

    Here's the thing: every time people have an issue with something in the game, there are always people there to tell them to stop posting. That's something I just don't get. It's not hurting anyone if we do post, and it might be useful, so what's the issue? What do you, or anyone, get out of coming into this thread and telling us to stop? If I think people are wasting their time posting, I let them, because it's their time.
    It's certainly hurting many people's enjoyment of this forum. Even if Blizzard haven't outright said that there won't be sameface, they've said that they've heard us and will be getting back to us shortly. So I see no point in continuing to complain.

  4. #164
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    I'd be really disappointed if Blizzard's art team couldn't figure out a way to use textures and such to create the illusion of different face designs in the same way we have them now.

    I'm hoping that they're trying to save them for a big unveiling instead of trying to skulk away and hope we forget about the issue. It's been a factor since Goblin and Worgen came out, and again with Pandas, so you'd think they would try to deliver on those concerns.

    The game wouldn't be the same for many people, including myself, if everyone suddenly looked the same. I look at my character all the time, via my portrait, character info window, testing new transmog looks (I dislike helmets, and usually only go for the open-air ones) and all that crap. My characters are a large part of the reason I play this game to begin with. If I didn't feel so attached to them, I'd have quit long ago. So don't try telling me what I should think is important.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Geminiwolf View Post
    We've pretty much all looked the same for years anyway. I mean when you're playing WoW you don't really see the face of each character that clearly anyway unless you're in first person mode and right up in their face. That's even if they don't have their helmet on which in that case, if they do have it on, having the same face isn't even going to matter. This is why the same face "issue" doesn't bother me because we all already look like a bunch of clones running around. I mean, yeah, it's fun having lots of customizing options but in WoW's case, really, in all MMOs, having a different face really isn't going to matter all that much. Plus givin the fact that we're going to have facial animations now like the Pandarens, I'm not sure if it's even possible to have different unique faces for each race. Maybe that could be another reason why they added the option to use the old models instead of the new ones.

    And you know, the thing is we've been wanting new models for a long time and here we're finally getting it and now we're giving Blizzard shit because the faces aren't different. I mean come on people, when is it going to be good enough for you just say "Yeah that's awesome! Thanks Blizzard" instead of "Yeah yeah, we have new models now but they're not good enough, make them better!" I mean geez, let off a little bit. Plus they're not even close to being done yet, the beta isn't even out yet nor has it even been announced when it's going to be out so they could've been working on different faces anyway. So just be patient about this.
    I don't know whether to feel sorry for people like you or envy you. I think I'll stick with pity considering the thousands of hours of pure bliss I get from watching my avatars exist in these worlds constantly at all times maneuvering my camera into a constant variable of dramatic and compositional frames when not over half the time playing down at the level my character is experiencing the world over his shoulder, often going first person for quest NPCs. WOW's camera controls not only make this effortless, but I love form and color and even though I was a passing casual Warcraft fan in 2001 and 2002 and the 90s, I don't think you're aware of what Blizzard's arguably most touted and distinctive feature of all was going to be with their MMO compared to all other MMOs before it. At the time I'd been reading and following the first Warhammer Online's incarnation for a little while and had written Warcraft off pretty much as an amusing spoof of Warhammer. But even shots of Warhammer Online's announcement suffered from what all MMORPGs and even RPGs suffered from their inception up until WOW. The most rudimentary and token graphical quality you had to make due with in any gaming genre. Even though you could explore the illusion of traveling across lands with freedom, it looked rendered by mass produced assets and random terrain generators.

    Blizzard claimed they wanted their game to look like a painting, a whimsical stylized painting, at any moment in time you stopped and took a screenshot. And their screenshots at the time, while looking laughably bad now, seemed too good to be true. But they delivered beyond my expectations, exponentially. Even while simplistic, there was charm in everything and uniqueness. Every tree bent at its own angle, every bush seemed placed by hand. And they've only improved on that many times over with each expansion. And they forced a leap forward in visual quality for every competing MMO afterwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaddriel View Post
    Lazy excuse. Here are the face options for GW2's female charr, an animal race.



    Then you continue to customize in character creation by choosing height, physique, fur patterns, fur colors, fur pattern colors, type of horns, eye color, hair styles, hair colors and a whole host of sliders for eye angle, eye squint, iris size, eye size, brow placement, brow thickness, nose width at bridge, nose tip width, teeth size, tilt of jaw, tilt of muzzle, ear length, horn length, etc.

    It's hard to find 2 characters that look the same.
    Those are all so indistinct it doesn't make that much of a difference really beyond comparing the most literal of things, Blizzard goes for bold distinction over nuance. These all look like mostly nuances of the same 2 faces to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Female worgen got screwed up BECAUSE they listened to player whining, not because of a lack of it.... The models in alpha/beta looked more ferocious and more like wolves with different hairstyles.

    Then players started complaining and they changed drastically.

    The orc faces in the creation video had differences from what I saw.
    I doubt it. They mostly looked more geometric and made of cubes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BarosanuNr1 View Post
    They're just wrinkle sets that happen to create a noticeable distinction. The fact that the different painted faces apply to the same model doesn't diminish this effect of theirs. Sameface, even with moveable parts, on the other hand, still looks the same from one player to the other. Yes, pandarens' faces move, but they still move in the exact same way for everyone.
    People complain because right now, you can play a pandaren and I can play a human and both can be happy with it, but if all races will be like the pandaren, in the future I won't get to make such choices anymore.


    But the new models will apply to all other players and to all NPCs of that particular race/gender combo. It's going to be particularly noticeable in an expansion that has so many orc characters at its center.
    I mean, look at the gameplay videos that were posted. Durotan and Thrall look almost identical, and while they may get new models because they're important dudes, Durotan's guards won't. Neither will the numerous other orcs we will encounter. The world of Warcraft will, essentially, have only ~20 different people in it once you take out the major lore characters
    You can always toggle and keep the original models.
    Last edited by Yig; 2014-03-18 at 05:15 AM.
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  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Kierson View Post
    I'd be really disappointed if Blizzard's art team couldn't figure out a way to use textures and such to create the illusion of different face designs in the same way we have them now.
    The difference between then and now is pretty huge. If your job is to draw 10 variations of a face, which do you think will be easier: drawing it on 10 blank sheets of paper, or 10 highly detailed mannequin heads.

    In real life, a lot of what we think of as individual features of a persons face aren't on the skin, but the bones, muscles and fat underneath. A lot of taxidermists won't work on people's pets, because one you take the skin off the actual animal and put it on a generic wooden or plastic head, it doesn't look like your pet anymore.

    We have always had a "same-head" problem in WoW, but the heads were blank canvases and the textures were low resolution, making it easy for imagination to fill in the details. Now we still have same head, but the heads have lots of detail and higher resolution textures. There is no space for your imagination and it's shoved in your face that every single male orc has the same head, and the "face" is just a coat of paint.

    Edit: A 3d nose/ear option (like goblins) or an additional warpaint/scars texture layer could help a lot.
    Last edited by Darmalus; 2014-03-15 at 10:19 PM.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I'm not sure what your point is by posting the worgen. You seem to be arguing that discussion at this point is meaningless, but yet people complained that worgen looked too soft and cuddly, and Blizzard agreed and changed them.

    People are allowed to complain. You're allowed to think it's pointless, silly, or overreacting. That's the thing about opinions, they're all different...
    There was a pretty even split on that, and I don't think Blizzard did it based on our feedback at all. That's claiming they whipped up that model and it's animations in less than 30 days. And there were plenty of people arguing otherwise. They were clearly implementing a new level of graphical fidelity that makes the original worgen look geometric and full of harsh edges and angles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I noticed it. Actually the tweet is what led me to this thread (linked on MMO-C's front page). However, why does that mean further feedback is pointless? We haven't read the Artcraft yet. We don't know what they're going to say or how they're going to address it. Why can we not continue to provide feedback until that point?

    I've been through this song and dance before. We were told "too late!" with female worgen. We were told "we're not changing a damned thing because worgen!" with female pandaren. I'm going to provide feedback early and often because I do not want to see the same thing happen with my beloved main.
    I never stated you should withhold our feedback.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I'm going to assume that by "you" you mean a "general you" because I just hopped into this thread last night and have made all of three posts.

    But another voice saying "Yes, this concerns me" or "No, this doesn't bother me" is always useful, even if it's not new insight. Because it shows how another person feels about the issue, and I'd hope that Blizzard cares about what people think. If everyone said "I don't have anything new to say about Real ID on the forums" it wouldn't have blown up and made Blizz back down like it did and they did.
    It's also nice to just discuss an issue with other fans of the game and find like minded people. I acknowledge that as well.
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  8. #168
    Legendary! snuzzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protar View Post
    It's certainly hurting many people's enjoyment of this forum. Even if Blizzard haven't outright said that there won't be sameface, they've said that they've heard us and will be getting back to us shortly. So I see no point in continuing to complain.
    How? You can simply not click the thread... doesn't hurt you at all...

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  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and disagree. Blizz has said "We're going to acknowledge it," but they haven't officially done so yet because the artcraft hasn't been released. They know some people are unhappy, but if we all shut up about it until the official post, it might look like not as many as it is.

    I didn't see Blizzard say anywhere "We're not going to have sameface" like you're implying with your attempted continuation of my metaphor. It's more like they said "We hear your concerns about Real ID and are going to address them in the future." In fact that's pretty much exactly what they've said about the faces of the new models. So, no, you're wrong.

    Here's the thing: every time people have an issue with something in the game, there are always people there to tell them to stop posting. That's something I just don't get. It's not hurting anyone if we do post, and it might be useful, so what's the issue? What do you, or anyone, get out of coming into this thread and telling us to stop? If I think people are wasting their time posting, I let them, because it's their time.
    For me it's all a matter of tone and presentation.
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  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    How? You can simply not click the thread... doesn't hurt you at all...
    It's hardly just in this thread. Everywhere I look there's pointless complaints about various features of WoD which we don't know enough about to judge.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and disagree. Blizz has said "We're going to acknowledge it," but they haven't officially done so yet because the artcraft hasn't been released. They know some people are unhappy, but if we all shut up about it until the official post, it might look like not as many as it is.

    I didn't see Blizzard say anywhere "We're not going to have sameface" like you're implying with your attempted continuation of my metaphor. It's more like they said "We hear your concerns about Real ID and are going to address them in the future." In fact that's pretty much exactly what they've said about the faces of the new models. So, no, you're wrong.

    Here's the thing: every time people have an issue with something in the game, there are always people there to tell them to stop posting. That's something I just don't get. It's not hurting anyone if we do post, and it might be useful, so what's the issue? What do you, or anyone, get out of coming into this thread and telling us to stop? If I think people are wasting their time posting, I let them, because it's their time.
    Exactly, I hope to high heaven they are right and any further complaints and feedback fall on deaf ears because the one face problem has been addressed already and is to be shown soon but I'm not going to assume anything until I see it as you said we are not hurting anyone.

    Scenario: Blizzard: "Oh seems the problem with the one face has quietened down or just a few individuals we being vocal in the first place, maybe it wasn't a big deal lets add a quick fix and hopefully we will hear no more."

    Quote Originally Posted by Protar View Post
    It's certainly hurting many people's enjoyment of this forum. Even if Blizzard haven't outright said that there won't be sameface, they've said that they've heard us and will be getting back to us shortly. So I see no point in continuing to complain.
    What's more hurtful to the forums: complaining about something that's arguably a valid concern or complaining about the complainers that are complaining about a arguably valid concern? Anyway all you're doing by continuously defending and bumping these threads is helping us so tbh we should be grateful.

  12. #172
    Legendary! snuzzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protar View Post
    It's hardly just in this thread. Everywhere I look there's pointless complaints about various features of WoD which we don't know enough about to judge.
    And yet, your posts do nothing to convince anyone to stop expressing their opinion. I see a lot of threads I don't care about, too. And then I don't post to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    There was a pretty even split on that, and I don't think Blizzard did it based on our feedback at all. That's claiming they whipped up that model and it's animations in less than 30 days. And there were plenty of people arguing otherwise. They were clearly implementing a new level of graphical fidelity that makes the original worgen look geometric and full of harsh edges and angles.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I never stated you should withhold our feedback.

    - - - Updated - - -

    It's also nice to just discuss an issue with other fans of the game and find like minded people. I acknowledge that as well.
    My apologies. I must have misread what you were saying. You do have a point about the male worgen, but I still think our feedback did influence the direction the new model took.
    Last edited by snuzzle; 2014-03-15 at 11:17 PM.

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  13. #173
    There should be a /set emotion ability that let's you see your face's mood. People keep saying that the emotions will be expressed via animations... but those animations seldom happen. I like my 100% always angry male gnome face. Or my other gnome with 100% goofy face.

    Look at this Gnome's face...

    LOOK AT IT! You will never see such unbridled goonery every again if they keep the samface.

  14. #174
    Legendary! snuzzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    Those are all so indistinct it doesn't make that much of a difference really beyond comparing the most literal of things, Blizzard goes for distinction over nuance. There all look like mostly nuances of the same 2 faces to me.
    I don't think they're indistinct, and I think it hurts your argument to say that they are. If that was the level of difference we got from face to face in WoW, I would be over the moon.

    However, what they are is different face models, ie different geosets not just textures. You can see it especially in the nose and jaw, the actual facial geometry is different. It's much more apparent when clicking from face to face in the actual game. So they're not something that's really comparable to WoW where the only difference from face to face is texture.

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  15. #175
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    Texture swap works for a low poly models, but for a high poly model one does not simply swap face because the shape is defined by polygons.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    How about they finish all of the models first and release the expansion before we start complaining?
    Absolutely not. Worries need to be brought up during development. Do you truthfully believe that once the models are already released, that Blizzard will hop in and make a bunch of changes and additions to the animations?

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    I don't think they're indistinct, and I think it hurts your argument to say that they are. If that was the level of difference we got from face to face in WoW, I would be over the moon.

    However, what they are is different face models, ie different geosets not just textures. You can see it especially in the nose and jaw, the actual facial geometry is different. It's much more apparent when clicking from face to face in the actual game. So they're not something that's really comparable to WoW where the only difference from face to face is texture.
    I have GW2. I've played that race. I mostly found all those faces overwhelming for being too subtle in their differences, it highlights one point I've made. You risk either making the distinctions too subtle to warrant the work especially with WOW's design philosophy of having very stark and broad differences between each choice making their limited choices matter more, or as I've said you can risk going too far and making something like looks like a bunch of similarly related animals that aren't quite the same species. I understand how you think that helps what you're saying, but I don't think it does at all, it actually shows how overwhelming and too busy this kind of thing can get, and I specialize in breaking down form and capturing nuance in my field of work and in my hobbies, I can sit and see the differences now but the first time I saw them, if you didn't label the faces, I wouldn't have been able to tell you if I was looking at 30 different subtle variations between the very obvious that stick out to me or 50 beyond how often the few I recognize cycle back. And I also have an eye trained for identifying individual animals based on coat markings in real life wildlife conservation and capturing reptiles like turtles and others who camouflage into their environment, I latch on to silhouettes. I'd be a good fossil hunter, and have even taken some cracks at it, and found I had a knack for it. I can sit and eventually recognize those faces, but WOW's thing is all about first impressions. That's matters so much with a genre trying to appeal to people outside it's fan base.

    I don't think I'm going to change your mind though. I guess I'll agree to disagree. WOW's purpose to give us larger than life instantly recognizable variants is both frustrating and appreciated in my view. The sculptor and painter in me wants to go crazy, but I still love their work 99% of the time and I like the way they basically give us these things that scream "WARCRAFT" in our faces while offering us things like bumper-stickers and decorations to feel just enough of your own personal touch in a very carefully adjusted balance it's easy to dismiss as lazy. Knowing why they did it, and seeing them put the same amount of work in other places that people think a character creation system like this warrants annoys me when people chalk it up to Blizzard trying to "get away" with something we are supposed to just tolerate.

    I think in this cartoon style also, you can create entire new player races based on extremely different proportioned individuals. As I've shown comparing the array of human models we have in WOW that look so different but all are human, while talking about high elves in the Subrace photoshop thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    And yet, your posts do nothing to convince anyone to stop expressing their opinion. I see a lot of threads I don't care about, too. And then I don't post to them.



    My apologies. I must have misread what you were saying. You do have a point about the male worgen, but I still think our feedback did influence the direction the new model took.
    I just don't think 21 days was enough time, nor do I think they felt comfortable with the worgen they made. For one, they had developed a more advanced generation of models the original worgen players aren't up to par with, aesthetic preferences aside, for another, looking at every worgen incarnation in game, they look much more like the Worgen we know. The player Worgen looked nothing like Worgen. They looked like Dobermans and weird fox/deer ladies to me with very outdated polygons and textures in a lot ways, though I loved them when I first played them and argued AGAINST more feral Worgen, I immediately changed my mind personally logging into beta and seeing the new model the night it was implemented. But we'll never know, I just have a suspicion it wasn't because of a few threads we had on the beta forum for 21 days.
    Last edited by Yig; 2014-03-18 at 05:41 AM.
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  18. #178
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    i want my Characters to be able to show emotion. If i get a new piece of loot my character should smile. If i am taking heavy damage or a big hit i should show pain.

    it would also be good for machinima if there were awesome facial rigs & lip sync abilities.
    Hi

  19. #179
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    "If we create different faces for each race it will take time from a raid or some dungeons." "Buy this exciting new face for your account on the store!" This are the 2 options you can choose eith Blizzard.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    i want my Characters to be able to show emotion. If i get a new piece of loot my character should smile. If i am taking heavy damage or a big hit i should show pain.

    it would also be good for machinima if there were awesome facial rigs & lip sync abilities.
    Yes, I love facial expressions in games, it's pretty much mandatory now. In the KOTOR beta screenshots they were all blank faced dolls and it drove me insane.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pedrolo View Post
    "If we create different faces for each race it will take time from a raid or some dungeons." "Buy this exciting new face for your account on the store!" This are the 2 options you can choose eith Blizzard.
    You need to be strapped to a chair Clock Work Orange style with a film shown to you about context. Context is important. Ignoring and playing semantic games with context is dishonest. This makes you a liar when you do that. You should be careful you don't do that if that matters to you.
    It must suck to have nothing but "gotcha" sound bites to hide behind in place of actually reasoning and addressing points and thinking.

    Education, free for the taking: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...7808?page=2#21
    Of course, do feel free to romantically portray yourself as the voice of clarity and truth in the brainwashed world of consumerism, it's quite exciting and self affirmating.

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