Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Sweetpeaz]

Can you guys please learn basic forum etiquette and snip huge posts, at the very least large pictures.

I'm sorry but its a huge pet peeve.

- - - Updated - - -



I am nitpicking the same redundant arguments that continue to be used in this thread, no different than I did with you on a different logical fallacy so many pages back.

Unless you think the illusion of thread progression through the same redundant arguments is actual progression.

You know...if you have a problem with so many people, maybe you're the problem?

Immersion is a buzzword, used to describe a feeling. It's not meant in the most literal sense. For somebody who says context matters, you should observe. You don't really kill things in the game.....you know?


Even the majority of people I've had disagreements in this would never suggest that immersion in this game, is the definition you use.

[rda]

I'd like to do that with all of the circular conversations that are being had in the thread so that it can one day become a constructive and productive thread, would be awesome. Can we please do that?

You want a constructive and productive thread? Fine, I asked you a question a few posts above, #35487. I didn't full-quote your post with pictures, either. Yet somehow you prefer to lament about there being no discussion - you spent two posts on this already - rather than maybe, I don't know, answer the short and constructive question I asked? Same for questions from others - there's been no shortage of constructive answers and questions your way, but you prefer to moan about the discussion not happening while doing your best to make it not happen.

[Sweetpeaz]

I feel the opposite... I get much better feeling being able to fly soar.. See the world from a excellent perspective.. You cant see the world sitting surrounded by trees... I enjoy flying to the highest point dismounting and sitting on a mountain top which is un-climbable. Enjoy the vast scenic views you cant get that running around walking around Its a huge loss i cant enjoy the current land when im sitting on the ground. Only get to enjoy it briefly on crap flying paths

It's because for the people who don't like flight, they don't view what you're doing as part of the game.

The game to them is broken down into items like this:

1. You do quest A.
2. You go to world boss.
3. You go to farm items

You have to be doing something with a definite end point. If it takes longer, you get jumped, you get sidetracked....that's all part of it for them. Just because you don't like that doesn't mean a thing to the, you have to play the game their way, in order for them to get the enjoyment they want.

They don't understand the concept of just being in the world, doing nothing with an end point....nothing with a clear objective. They think because you're paying to play the game you have to be actively engaged in an activity that is pre-defined.

[Felthorn]

Can you guys please learn basic forum etiquette and snip huge posts, at the very least large pictures.

I'm sorry but its a huge pet peeve.

- - - Updated - - -



I am nitpicking the same redundant arguments that continue to be used in this thread, no different than I did with you on a different logical fallacy so many pages back.

Unless you think the illusion of thread progression through the same redundant arguments is actual progression.

Posting giant pictures in an attempt to be clever is also a little against basic forum etiquette, too...and a pet peeve of mine. So kindly refrain

You're claiming to know the intent and definition of a subjective word/term used by someone else. That is kind of arrogant, no? Claiming Blizzard meant it in a literal sense is speculative on your part in the best of circumstances.

So, by your own argument, the game would be literally more immersive if we played in a lake in a cavern under a forest that was under a floating island...because we would be "under" more things. More "Immersed".

Arguing how the term was intended to be used, and what it means to each player is a waste of time. You are progressing that waste of time here, so, congratulations for doing that which you say you're "against".

I attempted to move the conversation into understanding how Blizzard can use flight as a positive by taking a little extra time (and I mean very little) in designing quests properly. We have yet to see any content that is necessary to be grounded that is revolutionary or compelling. We're wondering when the big reveal is. What could it be? Like I mentioned, if it is jumping puzzles...then we're all in for a pretty boring ride.

Removing an entire vector of movement from development *removes* opportunity to create interesting mechanics and quests. I look across all the other MMO's I've played and . . .can't think of any "ground based" content that is so compelling that Blizzard needs to add it. This could be a shortcoming of my imagination and experience though.

I think many of us can agree that what Blizzard has given us so far is lack-luster and doesn't offer any compelling reason to remain grounded. We're hopeful that this revolutionary content comes out soon (6.1?). . .but if it is more of the same then, well, I think even more subs will be lost.

So maybe we can move the conversation from nit-picking word definitions to something more constructive, like: How will Blizzard make ground-only content truly excellent? Can they make us forget flying with said content? What could Blizzard do mechanically and Thematically to allow for Flight to not only exist but become something revolutionary and exciting?

That's where I'd like to see the flight discussion go.

[rda]

By the way, I just noticed that this thread is now #4 in the entire lifetime of this forum in terms of views (1.6+ mil). The only 3 threads that are above are:

Request a Signature / Wallpaper / Banner (6.8+ mil)
General WoD Alpha / Beta Discussion (6.7+ mil)
WoW Fan Art Thread (4.3+ mil)

There's also the Looking for RAF Partner sticky, but it is going to be surpassed today or tomorrow.

- - - Updated - - -

So maybe we can move the conversation from nit-picking word definitions to something more constructive, like: How will Blizzard make ground-only content truly excellent? Can they make us forget flying with said content? What could Blizzard do mechanically and Thematically to allow for Flight to not only exist but become something revolutionary and exciting?

I have an answer for the last question: there are many, many, many ways to make flight not just exist but be exciting - they could add mount gear, both cosmetic (mount transmog) and non-cosmetic (additional bags or, say, an ability that increases flying speed 2x for 10 sec with a 5 min cooldown), they can design multi-tiered zones with various tiers accessed via flying mounts (Storm Peaks), they can add mini-games with rewards (Darkmoon Faire circle chasing race, but perhaps something like WoW version of quiddich would work better), they could add achievements for sightseeing including from places only accessible by flying (GW2-like), etc.

[MasterOfNone]

That's where I'd like to see the flight discussion go.

agreed. there have been several posters (anti-flying) that have had good discussions and ideas of compromise which is more than enjoyable to discuss and postulate. however, you will find that certain posters here just wave their arms about how this thread is going no-where when you dont agree with their opinion 100%. their lack of understanding or compromise does not help. if you are pro-flying, anything you say just gets labeled "nonsense" to certain posters instead of them trying to understand YOUR opinion. i know not everyone will agree, which is the point of the discussion. if all did agree there would be no need for it. unfortunately, there will always be those that say conversations are not constructive because it does not cater to their beliefs 100%.

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, I just noticed that this thread is now #4 in the entire lifetime of this forum in terms of views (1.6+ mil). The only 3 threads that are above are:

Request a Signature / Wallpaper / Banner (6.8+ mil)
General WoD Alpha / Beta Discussion (6.7+ mil)
WoW Fan Art Thread (4.3+ mil)

There's also the Looking for RAF Partner sticky, but it is going to be surpassed today or tomorrow.

- - - Updated - - -



I have an answer for the last question: there are many, many, many ways to make flight not just exist but be exciting - they could add mount gear, both cosmetic (mount transmog) and non-cosmetic (additional bags or, say, an ability that increases flying speed 2x for 10 sec with a 5 min cooldown), they can design multi-tiered zones with various tiers accessed via flying mounts (Storm Peaks), they can add mini-games with rewards (Darkmoon Faire circle chasing race, but perhaps something like WoW version of quiddich would work better), they could add achievements for sightseeing including from places only accessible by flying (GW2-like), etc.

some good ideas here. i like the idea of personalized saddles maybe. color coded or an option to change color of certain mounts or said accessories (armor) in your post. a usable potion on on personal mounts that allows faster flight or many other thinkable bonuses. the options really are limitless.

[Sweetpeaz]

agreed. there have been several posters (anti-flying) that have had good discussions and ideas of compromise which is more than enjoyable to discuss and postulate. however, you will find that certain posters here just wave their arms about how this thread is going no-where when you dont agree with their opinion 100%. their lack of understanding or compromise does not help. if you are pro-flying, anything you say just gets labeled "nonsense" to certain posters instead of them trying to understand YOUR opinion. i know not everyone will agree, which is the point of the discussion. if all did agree there would be no need for it. unfortunately, there will always be those that say conversations are not constructive because it does not cater to their beliefs 100%.

Vashj'ir was a zone without flight, and I loved it. It's by far my favorite zone in the world.

But I know that people had depth perception issues with it, maybe that can be resolved in some way. But I never missed flight one bit in that place. I had a mount that went fast, I was still able to get to my destinations, and I have always been sure to take every character I leveled though that zone.

It's not enough to say 'Because Blizzard says so' as an argument. They clearly didn't deliver on their new and engaging world.

[MasterOfNone]

Vashj'ir was a zone without flight, and I loved it. It's by far my favorite zone in the world.

But I know that people had depth perception issues with it, maybe that can be resolved in some way. But I never missed flight one bit in that place. I had a mount that went fast, I was still able to get to my destinations, and I have always been sure to take every character I leveled though that zone.

It's not enough to say 'Because Blizzard says so' as an argument. They clearly didn't deliver on their new and engaging world.

cant say that i LOVED vash lol but i see your point. even without flying yes, it was fast and not nearly as cumbersome. my problem with that zone is i felt it had too many quests. beyond that it was an attractive zone. as for WOD content, i couldnt agree more. the cost of no flying (to me) was taken with a promise that just didnt live up to the hype.

[Blackcoffin]

Vashj'ir was a zone without flight, and I loved it. It's by far my favorite zone in the world.

But I know that people had depth perception issues with it, maybe that can be resolved in some way. But I never missed flight one bit in that place. I had a mount that went fast, I was still able to get to my destinations, and I have always been sure to take every character I leveled though that zone.

It's not enough to say 'Because Blizzard says so' as an argument. They clearly didn't deliver on their new and engaging world.

Vasj'ir IS basically a flying zone. There is no technical difference. The same "depth" issues were noticed during cataclysm, the "Jousting" quests in Mount Hyjal.
Who are you to dismiss an argument? Disagreeing is fine. They didn't deliver in your opinion. But Draenor is literally more engaging through ground mounts than flying, might not be challenging, but you are at least forced to cheese your way through mobs instead.

[Sweetpeaz]

Vasj'ir IS basically a flying zone. There is no technical difference. The same "depth" issues were noticed during cataclysm, the "Jousting" quests in Mount Hyjal.
Who are you to dismiss an argument? Disagreeing is fine. They didn't deliver in your opinion. But Draenor is literally more engaging through ground mounts than flying, might not be challenging, but you are at least forced to cheese your way through mobs instead.

But this is what I don't get. What am I being challenged to do? Where are you going that you see these challenges? Apexis dailies? Those aren't really part of a story line, they are a choice, which many don't do.

I've asked this before and nobody has answered me yet. Hopefully you will. At max level...what is this content that is so engaging? I did the puzzles, I did the treasures, the archaeology things in trees on on walls......did them too.

[Azwing]

It is based on the context used... and the context used was literal.

Peoples initial and continued misunderstanding that for hundreds of pages later is their own fault, and the continued refusal to understand the context and meaning is again... their own fault.

You are the one that is misusing the word immersion, in this context.

Immersion:

1: the act of putting someone or something completely in a liquid or the state of being completely in a liquid

2: complete involvement in some activity or interest

3: a method of learning a foreign language by being taught entirely in that language

The definition that applies to Role Playing Games is Number 2, not Number 1 as you are using it. Number 1 is literal. You are physically immersed in something. Number 2 is figurative. You feel you are part of the story (or world [of warcraft]). Number 3 isn't relevant to this discussion.

The use of immersion in RPG, whether it's PnP or computer game, has always meant the second definition of the word: figurative involvement in the fantasy world. You can not literally be immersed in a RPG world.

[MasterOfNone]

Vasj'ir IS basically a flying zone. There is no technical difference. The same "depth" issues were noticed during cataclysm, the "Jousting" quests in Mount Hyjal.
Who are you to dismiss an argument? Disagreeing is fine. They didn't deliver in your opinion. But Draenor is literally more engaging through ground mounts than flying, might not be challenging, but you are at least forced to cheese your way through mobs instead.

even with this comparison you were allowed to travel in z axis to traverse over annoying obstacles. not trying to speak for peas, but personally i find tripping over the same shit on alts to be cumbersome. i could swim over a wall or whatever i needed to swim over to be more direct on the path I CHOSE. just one reason why they arent equivalent in that respect.

[Sweetpeaz]

even with this comparison you were allowed to travel in z axis to traverse over annoying obstacles. not trying to speak for peas, but personally i find tripping over the same shit on alts to be cumbersome. i could swim over a wall or whatever i needed to swim over to be more direct on the path I CHOSE. just one reason why they arent equivalent in that respect.

That's because...rocks and singular paths aren't immersing content, they are obstacles. Lots of obstacles in WoD. Love getting hung up on a fence post!!!!

What was great about Vashj'ir was the story. The same thing with Uldum and Harrison Jones.....a great story is the immersion.

I cannot speak for anybody but myself in this, but when I heard we were going back to Outland, I had a totally different view of what the world was going be. I pictured (in my head) a wide open expanse of land, with content in it. What they did, was they took this land, and made the shape of an 'S'....and said, okay 'fit the quest objectives in that space'. It's so linear.

[Baconeggcheese]

So maybe we can move the conversation from nit-picking word definitions to something more constructive, like:

Lets try it! Maybe other people will join in and attempt not to restart the circular arguments! I already took the liberty of cutting the circular and non-constructive ones that lead back to the circular arguments out!

all imo of course:

How will Blizzard make ground-only content truly excellent?

I'm not sure how we're defining "truly excellent", or ground only content considering 99.9% of the content in the game is ground only.

Can you elaborate on exactly what you're asking here?

What could Blizzard do mechanically and Thematically to allow for Flight to not only exist but become something revolutionary and exciting?

This is a good question that has in some form been discussed many many times in the thread since a lot of the people in it only want to talk about ways to add flight back into the game. Obviously no ones come up with anything revolutionary, people tend to have the same obvious ideas.

For me personally this conversation becomes *how can we re-introduce flight in a way that does not effect other aspects of game design* since that's my real beef with flight. I've personally not been able to come up with anything that allows free form movement (flight) without diminishing other aspects of game design or making flight so overly convoluted and cumbersome that you may as well not have it at all. I'd be all for someone coming up with a great answer to this, thus far I have not come across it.



The other question that I'd like to see discussed more is "how can travel be improved if flight doesn't come back" considering a lot of people here think flight isn't coming back and blizzard has already made their decision. This is something that hasn't been discussed much since again a lot of people in the thread don't even want to entertain the thought of flight not coming back and only want to talk about putting flight back in the game.

[Sweetpeaz]

The other question that I'd like to see discussed more is "how can travel be improved if flight doesn't come back" considering a lot of people here think flight isn't coming back and blizzard has already made their decision. This is something that hasn't been discussed much since again a lot of people in the thread don't even want to entertain the thought of flight not coming back and only want to talk about putting flight back in the game.

Travel doesn't need to be changed. It was never the problem. Never.

Blizzard doesn't really think that you sitting on a flight path is some how really engaging. Any item that speeds up travel will just introduce the same issue they had with flight.

It's a mechanic to slow down content consumption. That's all this has ever been. They want it to take you longer to do everything. They could have easily added portals in to more places had they wanted to.....that was never the objective.

[Baconeggcheese]

Travel doesn't need to be changed. It was never the problem. Never.

Flight is a travel system, its an oxymoron that travel isn't a problem but there is a problem with the removal of flight.

I am sad it took but one post for someone to bring up a circular argument.

[Sweetpeaz]

Flight is a travel system, its an oxymoron that travel isn't a problem but there is a problem with the removal of flight.

I am sad it took but one post for someone to bring up a circular argument.

It's only circular because your own hang ups.

Putting portals in, or instant travels does the same exact thing they said was the problem with flight. It allowed people to pick and choose how to engage in their content. They can't make it fast enough.

...I know you'll discount that too. But they said it, and then they modified their posts so it was removed. It's always been about content consumption. That's why we get the 'it'll cost a raid tier' joke. Wake up man....open your eyes.

I'm not even sure you know what circular logic is. Is this another immersion thing where you apply a definition that's not really relevant?

[Baconeggcheese]

It's only circular because your own hang ups.

Or because you keep rehashing arguments that people have been using for hundreds of pages, hence this thread is in a perpetual circular argument because of people like you.

[Sweetpeaz]

Or because you keep rehashing arguments that people have been using for hundreds of pages, hence this thread is in a perpetual circular argument because of people like you.

Again, I'm only one person. You seem have a problem with most.

Why don't you enlighten us and tell us all what the problem is with travel that isn't going to be introduced in another method of....travel?

[Natylyaz]

I have read this thread from time to time, here are some arguments which are perhaps not new, but for which I have not seen a satisfying counter (and anyway, which are the reasons I don't like WoW right now, which is sad) :

1) I have done all the quests, upgraded my garrison, completed the dungeons. And for the first time in an expansion, I do not want to go explore the world, the lack of flying being the main reason.

2) Leveling my alts (all 90, a couple 97) is not engaging, since even if I hit 100 in Talador or Arak, I won't be able to enjoy a flying mount for Nagrand (with really cool floating rocks).

3) Ironically, the world seems smaller to me, since I can't see the whole of it from above. Gorgrond feels like a succession of small zones instead of a big region.

4) I can't use all the flying mounts I have worked hard to obtain (Ulduar...), and I lost motivation to obtain those I wanted (Icecrown...). And no, running with a wyrm or a drake is definitely not as cool as flying.

5) Obstacles ! It's so frustrating to be stuck in a tiny fence. Or to fall from an almost flat hill and not be able to go back up (I killed Deathwing, I can't climb a tiny hill...)