1. #6041
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazgrel View Post
    Flying has no effect on raids other than some raids requiring one to enter (TK, BoT). They aren't usable in those nor in instanced pvp.

    If you want to call daily hubs like the isles end game...lol.
    They are endgame, whether you agree or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    Well, you can't fly in Arenas, BGs, Raids, or Dungeons. Not sure how flying affect the pacing of end game since most end game content is instanced and flying is not permitted in instances.
    We are talking about the pacing of open-world endgame content, which flying directly affects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Farabee View Post
    No, it is completely on-topic. The topic is that certain aspects of the game invalidate others, and outright hurt the play experience.

    BGs and Arenas invalidate world PVP by making the best option for a PVPer to get better at that part of the game and improve their character sitting safely in a city and lining up to fight pre-selected players from a queue. The sheer boredom causes people to bot it and basically ruins any fun people could have had. In the open world, if you run into organized resistance you can always organize a counter-raid...in a BG, if you run into a preformed group as a solo queue, you might as well sit there and let them win quickly.

    As you mentioned before, arena has made class balance a nightmare and (unlike flight) has actually hurt quite a few specs in both PVE and PVP, because of arena balance concerns. Look at healers in Cata (and WoD for that matter). Throw in the issues with paid carries, win-trading and other nonsense that has cost legit players titles and you can see how much of a mess that has made.

    Do you know of anyone who played in the TM/SS days that didn't have a crapload of fun with the constant back-and-forth struggle? Blizzard made a half-assed attempt at recapturing that glory with Halaa, but they made 90% of the fight doing bombing runs on guards instead of actual player combat. Tol Barad and Wintergrasp are essentially open-air BGs with droll objectives and a silly player-cap or some mechanic to enforce "balance".

    Nobody asked for any of that nonsense, nobody needed it.
    I don't really know what to say here. I mean I agree, I just don't really see how it relates to what we're talking about here.

  2. #6042
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    We are talking about the pacing of open-world endgame content, which flying directly affects.
    You mean the ONE or TWO spots you might go before raiding? I am more interested in the THOUSANDS of places I could fly for my own ends.

  3. #6043
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    You mean the ONE or TWO spots you might go before raiding? I am more interested in the THOUSANDS of places I could fly for my own ends.
    Anything that pertains to open-world "content" (i.e. hubs, rares, gathering, achievements, pet hunting, etc.) is what I'm talking about.
    Your pleasure cruises need to take a backseat, I'm afraid.

  4. #6044
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    You mean the ONE or TWO spots you might go before raiding? I am more interested in the THOUSANDS of places I could fly for my own ends.
    Let's not pretend that all people who explore are flyers - given exploration was a huge part of this game before flying became involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  5. #6045
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    Your pleasure cruises need to take a backseat, I'm afraid.
    A little alarm of incredulity goes off in my brain every time I see someone badmouth pleasure.

    Puritan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Let's not pretend that all people who explore are flyers - given exploration was a huge part of this game before flying became involved.
    I think the landscape contains enough mountains, trails, jungles, caves, and crevices to cater to everything. It certainly did in Mists.
    Last edited by Callace; 2014-04-19 at 01:42 AM. Reason: typo

  6. #6046
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Let's not pretend that all people who explore are flyers - given exploration was a huge part of this game before flying became involved.
    Since every expac has had flying, and Cata redesigned the world for flying, I would bet a month's salary with the right data we'd prove more than 3/4 of exploration since TBC has been from the sky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    Your pleasure cruises need to take a backseat, I'm afraid.
    Not quite a pleasure cruise if I am farming ore and herbs, battle pets, rare spawns, dailies, more master and other misc achievements. flying allows me to accomplish more in a short period time because I am limited to time. I can spend 8-10 hours per week playing. Not 30+. Removing flight removes some people's ability to spend time effectively in this game.

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    Flying is a part of my Character. If it fails to remain a part of who my character is in this RPG in CURRENT content, I fail to see a reason to continue playing my favorite class. If I cannot justify playing my favorite class, I can't justify staying subbed after 6.1. Just that simple.

  7. #6047
    Quote Originally Posted by Callace View Post
    A little alarm of incredulity goes off in my brain every time I see someone badmouth pleasure.

    Puritan.
    I said it needs to take a backseat, I didn't say it should get tossed out of the car.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    Not quite a pleasure cruise if I am farming ore and herbs, battle pets, rare spawns, dailies, more master and other misc achievements. flying allows me to accomplish more in a short period time because I am limited to time. I can spend 8-10 hours per week playing. Not 30+. Removing flight removes some people's ability to spend time effectively in this game.
    Why are you being so slippery? Clearly those are the activities I am talking about.
    You can accomplish quite a lot in 8-10 hours per week with or without flying in current content. You can still do all of that AND raid in 8-10 hours per week without flying.

    Flying is a part of my Character. If it fails to remain a part of who my character is in this RPG in CURRENT content, I fail to see a reason to continue playing my favorite class. If I cannot justify playing my favorite class, I can't justify staying subbed after 6.1. Just that simple.
    It's your money.

  8. #6048
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post


    Flying is a part of my Character. If it fails to remain a part of who my character is in this RPG in CURRENT content, I fail to see a reason to continue playing my favorite class. If I cannot justify playing my favorite class, I can't justify staying subbed after 6.1. Just that simple.
    I know you say current content. But i don't understand how you can include that in your argument since you come from an exclusively RP angle. Everything you recorded in your video, you will be able to do in 6.0, 6.1, 6.2, and so on. You're role playing.. so make up a reason in your head why you can't fly in Dreanor and be done with it because that is the direction the game is going. You can pretend that there's toxins in the air and you have to go back to Kalimador periodically to be a free storm crow and exercise your wings. And when you do do that, make more bird montages. A+ would watch again.

  9. #6049
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ordinator View Post
    You can pretend that there's toxins in the air and you have to go back to Kalimador periodically to be a free storm crow and exercise your wings. And when you do do that, make more bird montages. A+ would watch again.
    And you can pretend that WoW doesn't exist while you play GW2 or ESO or wherever the hell it is you're getting your predilection for hiking in fantasy worlds from, while the rest of us resume flying in 6.1.
    Last edited by Callace; 2014-04-19 at 04:48 AM.

  10. #6050
    Quote Originally Posted by Callace View Post
    And you can pretend that WoW doesn't exist while you play GW2 or ESO or wherever the hell it is you're getting your predilection for hiking in fantasy worlds from, while the rest of us resume flying in 6.1.
    Just giving him some RP ideas. That is his only argument after all.

    Also, denial will only make it sting worse.

  11. #6051
    Quote Originally Posted by Ordinator View Post
    Just giving him some RP ideas. That is his only argument after all.

    Also, denial will only make it sting worse.
    Amen Brotha. Those two in particular refuse to acknowledge the obvious. They will keep arguing to the day we reach 6.1. Superman however, seem like a genuine guy with a passion for flying. Which i respect. However, he should indeed start preparing for what's to come, because flying in Draenor isn't whats to come.

  12. #6052
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farabee View Post
    in a BG, if you run into a preformed group as a solo queue, you might as well sit there and let them win quickly.
    I have done this several times, it is so ridiculously true. A well-geared, well-coordinated group makes random BGing absolutely pointless.

    And Arena is little more than a masturbatory exercise for druids, rogues and shamans to curbstomp everyone else in the game.

    Strangely, I enjoy fighting city-raiders, those open-world dungeon/raid/pvp objectives in games like AION, and the insane zergfest that is GW2 WvW. But structured PvP can kiss my ass.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  13. #6053
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    Flying is a part of my Character. If it fails to remain a part of who my character is in this RPG in CURRENT content, I fail to see a reason to continue playing my favorite class. If I cannot justify playing my favorite class, I can't justify staying subbed after 6.1. Just that simple.
    "My character can't deal with the harsh winds and skies of Draenor until he/she grows more powerful and accustomed to them"


    Boom, fixed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I have done this several times, it is so ridiculously true. A well-geared, well-coordinated group makes random BGing absolutely pointless.

    And Arena is little more than a masturbatory exercise for druids, rogues and shamans to curbstomp everyone else in the game.

    Strangely, I enjoy fighting city-raiders, those open-world dungeon/raid/pvp objectives in games like AION, and the insane zergfest that is GW2 WvW. But structured PvP can kiss my ass.
    That's because annoying teenagers use any competitive PvP game to roll the OP FOTM class/set up for easy wins

  14. #6054
    even with slower world travel, traveling will still take up a very small percent of your play time. it's not worth getting so angry about. you're gonna end up spending the majority of your play time doing something or being somewhere that you wouldn't be flying anyways.

  15. #6055
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post



    Right, that was the explanation for why we can't fly until max level. Now what's the reasoning behind not letting us fly for 6 months at max level?
    Still not completely comfortable and attuned to Draenor's skies and the savage world. It's entirely possible that the world of Draenor could have strong winds, harsher gravity or more dangerous flying enemies that player's aren't used to.

    Equally you could decide that agents of the Iron Horde are actively seeking Alliance/Horde heroes and would shoot you down on sight, making it too dangerous to fly until you thin their numbers enough in 6.1 that they're retreating.

    There's 1000s of explanations you can come up with if you want to.

  16. #6056
    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    Still not completely comfortable and attuned to Draenor's skies and the savage world. It's entirely possible that the world of Draenor could have strong winds, harsher gravity or more dangerous flying enemies that player's aren't used to.

    Equally you could decide that agents of the Iron Horde are actively seeking Alliance/Horde heroes and would shoot you down on sight, making it too dangerous to fly until you thin their numbers enough in 6.1 that they're retreating.

    There's 1000s of explanations you can come up with if you want to.
    And all of them would be more interesting to play out in the game than a blanket nerf.

  17. #6057
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    From what I see in images and video footage from the WoD alpha stuff, the world is designed to have flying in mind later if they bring it back in a later patch after release. I personally don't mind no flying. A lot of my good memories were passing people in need of help and helping them out: Quest, mobs, PvP, etc.

    While flying, I take the shortest root possible to my destination and bypass everyone and anything. I know I can go down on a ground mount and just not fly, but when the ability is there you tend to use it, so if flying weren't there you'd have to go cold turkey and deal with it, and might enjoy it.

  18. #6058
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    Why dont they make an achievement that after 5x level 100 characters on your account you unlock the flying ability vendor.

    After 5x leveling up you have seen all the things on the ground (atleast that was the case in MoP)

  19. #6059
    Quote Originally Posted by Rutger View Post
    And all of them would be more interesting to play out in the game than a blanket nerf.
    This isn't a blanket nerf and its very odd to think about it in that manner. It's a different design direction.

  20. #6060
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ordinator View Post
    Just giving him some RP ideas. That is his only argument after all.

    Also, denial will only make it sting worse.
    It goes beyond RP. No flying means a part of my character is limited. Would be like saying "Draenor's atmosphere is different so arcane based Mage Portals will not work" (forcing you to use an existing portal system) or "The composition of locks on the lock boxes are different so lock picking will not work (forcing you to visit a locksmith). Just examples. It might be a very MINOR part of who my character is, but no flight in Draenor would de-value a very distinct ability. I can RP excuses all day in my head, and find some great ones. But why should I continue to pay to play after 6.1 if they permanently neuter my character class ability in new content moving forward? If they remove it completely in Draenor, they could continue the patter in every expansion after that. Raiders would be rewarded with GROUND mounts in their achievements rather than the large and awe-inspiring flying mounts which have come from Raids/Dungeons/Achieves for the past 4 expansions. Permanently removing a feature from this game, but still selling mounts for the feature is wrong, and I really wish people could see it.

    Also, thanks for the props on the video. It was the first one I ever made.

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