Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Bacon is the Answer]

Eh, it's shifting the pendulum back a bit I'll agree, but it's hardly a recreation of Vanilla. If they were trying to do that, they'd be scrapping non mythic raids for example. If anything their plan seems to be to reinvent their open world with more events, rares etc and they feel (correctly or not) that that will work better without flying. Removing flight though is hardly them grasping back at the 'glory days' of vanilla. Misguided or not, it's just an attempt to breathe life into the world that will either work or blow up in their faces.

It would seem they are taking the best of what they have done in the past 8 years, and combining it with the best of what vanilla had to offer, stripping away flying and dailies, and giving us WoD.

[Nurvus]

I want a real debate, care to try?

All "debates" so far are based on attempting to refute what others say, and thus bear no fruits.

So, no, not really.
I'm not interested in winning a debate or prove anyone wrong.
I just want to share my concerns, my ideas, and try to come up with a solution that pleases everyone.

I've shared a link to my thread in the official forums - although I could recreate that thread in these forums - but people in these forums are so focused on whatever flaws an idea has rather than refining it that I don't think it's worth the effort.

[urasim]

As I said, they already gave you all the reasoning behind their issues with Flying.

Their reasoning is lacking in the eyes of many players. We have torn apart their posts and shown them for what they are, bullshit. The thing they edited out of their post was the most telling, and most damaging, thing they could've said. They want players to waste their time on ground mounts so they can be lazy and not develop content faster like they said they would(some would say they promised to the players). They have been saying for a long time players beat their content at a faster rate than they can produce. Now it shows they're incapable of developing content fast enough. Why would I want to stick with a company that can't make content faster than six month intervals? After this fails miserably they'll come up with something that is even more annoying. Maybe it will be something that you hate and then you'll quit the game.

"No more year long patches". LOL! Their PR team is filled with nothing but liars.

Sweetpeaz, I find it hard to believe anyone will quit the game because of no flying IN DRAENOR (you can still fly everywhere else)

Already done. Stop assuming things.

[AVPaul]

This discussion is pointless. Following picture should give you all the answers:

As you can see, most players are explorers. And, as you should know, all MMO developers recently started to cater to this category of players: shifting to open world, jump puzzles, vistas, hidden treasures and relics, etc. For example two of four paths in Wildstar are explorer oriented - Scientist (lore-oriented explorer) and Explorer (terrain-oriented explorer). This picture should also tell you, why developers currently don't really care about social-oriented part of their community, but trying really hard to also cater to PVP and wPVP players. I guess, they're not trying to cater to achievers, quz they're thinking, that achievers have enough things to do anyway - the whole PVE is achiever-oriented. So Blizzard are removing flying just because they think, that flying started to kill all the interest to play their game for widest part of their playerbase - exploration-oriented players, which caused subsequent loss of subs. I don't know, if they are right. While explorers are majority, but not overwhelming majority - they're still just 40% and we really don't know, how the other 60% part of playerbase will react to this change.

[Sweetpeaz]

The only 4 things I dislike about TI and IoT are:
- Poorly designed Guard AI
- Exploits to attack players in "safe" areas without getting attacked by Guards
- Loot Pinata trivializing on 2 tiers of content.
- It being an isolated, "special" place with "special rules" rather than just part of the world.

The real question is: Is lack of flying the reason you dislike IoT or TI?

In IoT yes, flight was the major reason I disliked that area. The only purpose for being there was a way to earn Valor points and to contribute to the server progress.

In TI I didn't mind it as much, because I viewed Ordos as the main reason to ever be there and you needed the cloak to be there. Flight would have been bad in that respect.

The loot pinata trivializing two tiers is exactly the reason it is there, as a catch up. If you were a flex or normal raider there was no need from gear there for your main. I did SoO once time in LFR and never touched another raid in MoP and still had an iLevel of over 546 (?) I think, maybe it was 542.

But there are times when I am playing that I need to get away quickly (crying child, wife needs me, dog getting sick, bio break, low blood-sugar, just needing to take a break etc) and I just mount up and fly high enough to be out of range. When I come back, I fly back down and continue on my way. Being in a raid is fine, I can tell the wife 'hey...for the next 2 hours I will be doing this' and it's all good. But for normal every day activities I don't think that's a good design.

There are even places in the game while leveling (maybe the caves up behind Kun Lai, that it is easier to hearth out of than drudge all the way back through again.

Maybe wanting that makes me a lazy gamer.....I'm okay with that. I enjoy it and it keeps me paying my subscription.

[TyrianFC]

This discussion is pointless. Following picture should give you all the answers:

As you can see, most players are explorers. And, as you should know, all MMO developers recently started to cater to this category of players: shifting to open world, jump puzzles, vistas, hidden treasures and relics, etc. For example two of four paths in Wildstar are explorer oriented - Scientist (lore-oriented explorer) and Explorer (terrain-oriented explorer). This picture should also tell you, why developers currently don't really care about social-oriented and competition-oriented parts of their community. So Blizzard are removing flying just because they think, that flying started to kill all the interest to play their game for widest part of their playerbase - exploration-oriented players, which caused subsequent loss of subs. I don't know, if they are right. While explorers are majority, but not overwhelming majority - they're still just 40% and we really don't know, how the other 60% part of playerbase will react to this change.

I find it highly amusing you're quoting a picture you dont even know how to interpret properly.

Explorers get more value from the game when their location has more meaning and weight in the world. While its not this black and white and so simple: the removal of flying gives players more reason to explore, more incentive and reward to explore, and more satisfaction from doing so.

Exploring does not equal 'mount up, aim in a direction and hit auto-run, then afk alttab for X sec, then return to game and zoom-drop-land on your objective'.

[Florena]

Their reasoning is lacking in the eyes of many players. We have torn apart their posts and shown them for what they are, bullshit. The thing they edited out of their post was the most telling, and most damaging, thing they could've said. They want players to waste their time on ground mounts so they can be lazy and not develop content faster like they said they would(some would say they promised to the players). They have been saying for a long time players beat their content at a faster rate than they can produce. Now it shows they're incapable of developing content fast enough. Why would I want to stick with a company that can't make content faster than six month intervals? After this fails miserably they'll come up with something that is even more annoying. Maybe it will be something that you hate and then you'll quit the game.

"No more year long patches". LOL! Their PR team is filled with nothing but liars.



Already done. Stop assuming things.

Lacking in the eyes of many players, but also making sense in the eyes of others. And frankly I don't see this really even slowing down content consumption all that much. For one thing raids and pvp will be unaffected by this, and those are the things that can take most people months of consistent play before they finish it. Things like timeless isle and dailies, they don't tend to last as long unless you do them on a bunch of alts.

Now I'm not saying no flying won't slow things down at all, but I don't see it making TI style stuff last too much longer either. Certainly it won't make it take months longer for people to clear outdoor content. I doubt it'll add up to enough to significantly affect patch cycles.

[khalltusk]

The only 4 things I dislike about TI and IoT are:
- Poorly designed Guard AI
- Exploits to attack players in "safe" areas without getting attacked by Guards
- Loot Pinata trivializing on 2 tiers of content.
- It being an isolated, "special" place with "special rules" rather than just part of the world.

The real question is: Is lack of flying the reason you dislike IoT or TI?



So you want to have a "real debate" with someone you look down on?
It sounds to me you prefer rethoric.

Ilse of thunder I did not like as it was full of Troll mobs but the lack of flying was so so. Took a little while to get anywhere.

Timeless Isle is a different beast. The platform games simply would not work. My main gripes with it are the grindy ness of the entire zone (for coins) and the powerful mobs compared to my characters who run it (namely my alts are shitly geared).

Flying could work in Isle of thunder but reasons for disliking it have nothing to do with not flying. Timeless Ilse I believe needs no flying to enable platform (other wise the platform elements need to be underground/in a building to stop you using mounts).

Flying as is works for me as when you get flying it is usually because you have leveled through the other content .So the leveling zones have been completed or at least surpassed in terms of rewards and you're not onto dungeons raids PVP crafting and what have you. One benefit of no flying is I have more reason to use my ground mounts (which are only used in certain raids and dungeons anyway).

The disadvantage of no flying is I can't get from A to B in most cases as quickly as I can now. More likely to rely on flight paths I guess come WoD. Not a huge minus but it is one.

[Sweetpeaz]

Lacking in the eyes of many players, but also making sense in the eyes of others. And frankly I don't see this really even slowing down content consumption all that much. For one thing raids and pvp will be unaffected by this, and those are the things that can take most people months of consistent play before they finish it. Things like timeless isle and dailies, they don't tend to last as long unless you do them on a bunch of alts.

Now I'm not saying no flying won't slow things down at all, but I don't see it making TI style stuff last too much longer either. Certainly it won't make it take months longer for people to clear outdoor content. I doubt it'll add up to enough to significantly affect patch cycles.

But they have said they look to do a lot more of max level quests that aren't in the form of dailies. So that could mean you need to run a chain quest, in addition to other things to gain access to a raid, or a dungeon.

I think it's common to use your current frame of reference as to how you think things may be, but it's clear that they don't want things to be the way they are today.

[Nurvus]

In IoT yes, flight was the major reason I disliked that area. The only purpose for being there was a way to earn Valor points and to contribute to the server progress.

Not trying to place words in your mouth, but it seems to me you identified the real reason why you didn't like IoT - "The only purpose for being there was a way to earn Valor points and to contribute to the server progress."
If they made IoT more interesting, I doubt flying would make a difference to you.
What you say below about TI just confirms my hypothesis.

In TI I didn't mind it as much, because I viewed Ordos as the main reason to ever be there and you needed the cloak to be there. Flight would have been bad in that respect.

The loot pinata trivializing two tiers is exactly the reason it is there, as a catch up. If you were a flex or normal raider there was no need from gear there for your main. I did SoO once time in LFR and never touched another raid in MoP and still had an iLevel of over 546 (?) I think, maybe it was 542.

But there are times when I am playing that I need to get away quickly (crying child, wife needs me, dog getting sick, bio break, low blood-sugar, just needing to take a break etc) and I just mount up and fly high enough to be out of range. When I come back, I fly back down and continue on my way. Being in a raid is fine, I can tell the wife 'hey...for the next 2 hours I will be doing this' and it's all good. But for normal every day activities I don't think that's a good design.

There are even places in the game while leveling (maybe the caves up behind Kun Lai, that it is easier to hearth out of than drudge all the way back through again.

Maybe wanting that makes me a lazy gamer.....I'm okay with that. I enjoy it and it keeps me paying my subscription.

It's hard to pinpoint one reason for anything in WoW because nearly everything is connected.
Loot piñata is "okay" because people don't feel like spending a lot of time catching up.

But what if Blizzard granted a buff to "previous tiers" everytime a new tier is released, adding/increasing chance for extra personal loot.So when ToT was released, MsV, HoF & ToES would get a buff increasing the amount of loot or granting a chance for extra personal loot.
When SoO was released, ToT would be given the same buff, and the buff to the first Tier would be increased.

This would make people WANT to do the previous tiers, but not feel so bored with them as it'd be relatively fast to gear up.

TI could simply grant you gear with around 463 ilevel (enough for LFR), or they could also buff the amount of loot you get from Heroic 5-man.

But shitting on their own content is NEVER the best solution - and that is one of the main reasons I am so fine with not having flight for a while.
It'll be a new experience. Perhaps I'll find it boring too, but I'm willing to try.

[urasim]

Lacking in the eyes of many players, but also making sense in the eyes of others. And frankly I don't see this really even slowing down content consumption all that much. For one thing raids and pvp will be unaffected by this, and those are the things that can take most people months of consistent play before they finish it. Things like timeless isle and dailies, they don't tend to last as long unless you do them on a bunch of alts.

Now I'm not saying no flying won't slow things down at all, but I don't see it making TI style stuff last too much longer either. Certainly it won't make it take months longer for people to clear outdoor content. I doubt it'll add up to enough to significantly affect patch cycles.

His post was littered with things that are subjective, and things that can be disproved easily. If it makes sense to you, then you don't have the ability to reason.

An example of subjective is immersion. Why they put that in there is beyond me.

The story of "flying versus ground" castle argument is an example of something that is disproved easy. No one plays the game the way he listed, and he's being intellectually dishonest when he simplifies flight and makes ground travel out to be something amazing...

If you don't think ground mount travel will slow you down, go time yourself with the content we have now. Do all the 5.0 dailies with only a ground mount. You will see a drastic difference in time spent.

[Megraam]

It's possible to fly in Draenor at the moment (alpha), the animation is rather awkward though.

http://www.twitch.tv/centurytribe/b/539048115

[Nurvus]

His post was littered with things that are subjective, and things that can be disproved easily. If it makes sense to you, then you don't have the ability to reason.

An example of subjective is immersion. Why they put that in there is beyond me.

The story of "flying versus ground" castle argument is an example of something that is disproved easy. No one plays the game the way he listed, and he's being intellectually dishonest when he simplifies flight and makes ground travel out to be something amazing...

If you don't think ground mount travel will slow you down, go time yourself with the content we have now. Do all the 5.0 dailies with only a ground mount. You will see a drastic difference in time spent.

You just ignored Malzra's whole post, insulted him, and proceeded to say what you wanted to say.
That's very intellectually honest.

You know what else is intellectually honest?
Saying I'm being intellectually dishonest by making up that I simplified flying and tried to make ground travel out as something awesome, while you yourself defend flying and simultaneously ignore what it does to ground travel, essentially casting it out as meaningless.

You know what else is funny? Everyone plays the way I listed - It's called leveling.
Why is it suddenly so much of an issue to keep playing at cap the way you do while leveling?

[Sweetpeaz]

If they made IoT more interesting, I doubt flying would make a difference to you.


This would make people WANT to do the previous tiers, but not feel so bored with them as it'd be relatively fast to gear up.

This is what it all comes down to, and I've said this many times. If they made content that was compelling to do in that fashion there wouldn't be a reason to deliberately ground people. Let that great content speak for itself. Don't take freedoms away from the players.

[urasim]

You just ignored Malzra's whole post to say what you wanted to say.
And that is the way everyone defending "flying as is" approaches this pointless argument.

Ad Hominem and being agressive is very constructive.

You're very intellectually honest when defend flying but ignore or simplify ground travel as meaningless.
Everyone plays the way I listed - while leveling.
What I'm saying is: why is it suddenly so much of an issue to keep playing the way you do while leveling, after you hit the level cap?

Nice strawman and ad hominem. Come back when you can attack the points and not me.

[Dragoncurry]

Nice strawman and ad hominem. Come back when you can attack the points and not me.

Rofl, "points". You don't know how to respond to them.

[rpdrichard]

And tell me how was Vanilla working without flying, and suddenly the game can't survive without it? This is an honest question.

I've said before - Flying as a concept is awesome.
There's nothing wrong with the concept of Flying in an MMO.

Although I am willing to give it a try without flying in WoD, I would rather have Blizzard make the necessary changes to flying so that it doesn't need to be removed at all!
The difference is I actually recognize the problems that WoW's current implementation of Flying brings to the game.

It's the biggest form of hypocrisy, when you cry that others are being selfish in approving of the removal of flying...
...yet you pay no mind to the fact that ground mounts are trivial at cap;
that anything and everything Blizzard designs - even the stuff meant for max level - is trivial because of flying;
that any small amount of World PvP that you could have had in WotLK, Cataclysm or MoP was completely broken and unfair mostly because of flying.

The list goes on, but the people that defend the CURRENT flying just wear blinders or close their eyes and keep screaming "it's fine as it is".

Accusing people of being fanboys or blizzard whiteknights; and then just repeating that "it's fine as it is" is pure irony, because it sounds like you've been brainwashed.
I don't know you, you don't know me.
Except most ppl complaining in forums are ungrateful ignorants.

I have yet to see a SINGLE reasonable, logical argument towards keeping flying AS IT IS.
All arguments in favor of flying so far are based on denial, hyperbole and/or ad hominem.

Blizzard screws up, a lot.
Other MMO companies don't screw up as much as Blizzard.
At first glance, that's bad for Blizzard - but it's not.

Do you know why Blizzard screws up? - It's also the reason I respect them:
Because they have the balls to constantly review their own decisions, admit failure and make real changes to their own game in a constant attempt to retroactively improve.
Blizzard holds the damn monopoly on meaningful gameplay changes in the MMO industry.
Other MMOs merely do bug fixing, add new content, increase level cap & add new abilities.

And I say this as a player that really tries to find a game that replaces WoW.
I didn't even buy MoP until december 2013 - I was simply not interested.
I tried Tera Online and it has amazing features. But it crumbles at so many levels, and is static. It has the same gameplay it had at launch, despite all its flaws. The company doesn't seek to evolve the game.
I loved GW1 and tried GW2, and despite a few amazing features, I'm utterly disappointed in the game as a whole.

And note that both of those games are light years ahead of WoW in animations and graphics.

World PvP died with instanced PvP, don't put the blame on the wrong place besides you're forgetting something really important that a great number of players choose from the begining or have moved to PvE servers so they don't have to deal with WPvP

I played on WotLK it was mind numbing having to return to the vanilla world to do anything without the ability to fly, I don't like TI or IoT so I already know how a world without flying is for me there's no reason to give it a try

[Bacon is the Answer]

It's possible to fly in Draenor at the moment (alpha), the animation is rather awkward though.

http://www.twitch.tv/centurytribe/b/539048115

In the sandbox of Alpha, I would imagine it is possible. Also, the skybox has to exist for flight paths to exist. Though, you are correct about the glitchy animation. Looks more like a flight hack, than actual sustained flight. You can tell how the flying mount is parked in a "grounded" animation while not flying. The same flight hack appearance came with Windriders in MoP while flying at lvl 87 in the new content.

[Dragoncurry]

World PvP died with instanced PvP, don't put the blame on the wrong place besides you're forgetting something really important that a great number of players choose from the begining or have moved to PvE servers so they don't have to deal with WPvP

I played on WotLK it was mind numbing having to return to the vanilla world to do anything without the ability to fly, I don't like TI or IoT so I already know how a world without flying is for me there's no reason to give it a try

Okay, so don't try it. Simple as that lol.

[Bacon is the Answer]

World PvP died with instanced PvP, don't put the blame on the wrong place besides you're forgetting something really important that a great number of players choose from the begining or have moved to PvE servers so they don't have to deal with WPvP

I played on WotLK it was mind numbing having to return to the vanilla world to do anything without the ability to fly, I don't like TI or IoT so I already know how a world without flying is for me there's no reason to give it a try

Agreed. The world is empty because of the World of Queuecraft. Sitting (insert location here) and queuing for LFD/LFR/BGs/Arenas allowed players to avoid the entrances to these locations, out in the world, where people used to interact while waiting for the rest of their group. We used to recruit others just standing around to help us summon our group. Now, we just sit in the AH, looking at over priced Battle Pets, and wait for a queue to pop. Meanwhile, those players who are out in the world, are flying about and exploring, questing, doing dailies, and more.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, so don't try it. Simple as that lol.

Flying mounts are not necessary. Don't use them. Simple as that.