Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Barkloud]

no one liners are usually catchy or funny ... but yah should put him on ignore not sure why haven't he hasn't said anything worth while for some time now... if ever

Is there anything really left to say? The only real point now is to make sure these threads stay front and center. That is what really matters.

How long has this thread been raging without leaving the front page of the forums? What has it been four months straight? How many other forums have the same thing going on?

Have you seen the Blizzard main forums with the "To Fly or not fly #30" or whatever it is up to now?

When is the last time something was so controversial within WOW that for four months straight Blizzards forum sites as well as third party forum sites raged with comments on one topic alone?

Given all this turmoil, Blizzard has been silent. Outside of the interview that started this mess, all we have seen is a couple of paragraphs of PR mumbo jumbo. Shoot, we know more about why the capital cities changed than we do about flying modifications.

This thread has divulged into a he said she said mess that burns like a Forum China Syndrome. Even the mods are timid to shut this thread down.

Have you read some of the comments people are making to one another, my goodness. My comments may not be popular, they may be dumb, but they do not insult anyone.

Anyhow, see you in a few pages.

[Ordinator]

I answered your question... I don't give a fuck .. if it takes 2-3 minutes between quest hubs... when it increase over all travel time by 50%. That I tested and gave you an example of.

Lets remind everyone what your actual "test" entailed..

Better yet how bout I take a flight path and time it in the Dread Wastes, and then I will go from point A. to B. on my ground mount... yep 50% longer..

A scenario that will never happen. Comparing flight path speeds to ground mount speeds while flight paths will always be an option to the player. Why should anyone believe anything you say after discrediting yourself so hard.

- - - Updated - - -

Given all this turmoil, Blizzard has been silent. Outside of the interview that started this mess, all we have seen is a couple of paragraphs of PR mumbo jumbo. Shoot, we know more about why the capital cities changed than we do about flying modifications.

Forum debates are among the least constructive feedback. Blizzard has stated this fact before. To expect them to acknowledge this sort of player feedback is silly.

[Deleted]

Except you seem to be laboring under the delusion that it's not a correct analysis. It's pretty close to dead on. We have not had a worse time in wow till the last 2 expansions. Baring your or my personal opinions on the content, we have lost an unprecedented 4.5 to 5.5 million gamers that have not returned or been replaced by new people. A luxury wow had in the past but it seem wow no longer has.

Except it wasn't an analysis it was pure speculation as it dismisses any other possible source for sub loss. All you have stated is.... 'I think it was shit, so we lost subscriptions because of that.' Completely dismissing the obvious arguments such as, older players having families and finding no time, people just becoming bored with WoW itself since its so old and WoW's failure to bring in new players because the hype has ebbed in the social consciousness causing a net flow to the minus? Or even the fact that people are just tired with it? No... it must be because the content and story which you labeled as not as good as previous as the reason to the downfall, totally dismissing any alternatives and not even addressing the fact that it is purely your own opinion that you've nailed to the crucifix of WoW.

Call it what you want, story and content the past 2 expansions have not been good and flying at max level had nothing to do with that? WHY? Because if it was flying causing the problem, TBC and WoTLK would have suffered as well. Guess what? They did not.



It seem a rather large number of subs didn't like it. While many have stayed do you believe they stayed for the content and story or because they are hooked on wow, don't want to give up what they have accomplished and quite enjoy their friends?

I believe it's the latter and not the former.

Yes. on the flipside perhaps the story in WOTLK and TBC was so good that people were prepared to overlook the problems with flight, and its only since as you've described that 'the story and content are shit' (paraphrased) that the issue of flight has came up and the community can see that its pros and cons are somewhat unbalanced. You also leave out possible explanations such as product life cycle and media hype, see paragraph 1.

It can very well be the latter and not the former, but it is still pure speculation, backed only by a quirky anecdote and should not be lauded as truth like you are some sort of guru whose personal preferences on what constitutes 'good content' or 'good story' is an absolute truth that others share as a majority. I must add though that since it is purely subjective that personally I enjoyed MoP far more than I did TBC, to me the story and content was more compelling. I though, know that my personal opinion on the matter has no place being elevated to some lofty position. Don't be like that, simply because you did not like the content, does not give you the right to stamp it as the defining reason of WoWs decline. I did not say flying mounts caused the decrease in subscription numbers, and I never will.

Because immersion with no flying goes against the very game play of wow. You have to make a hard attempt to beleive nothing can fly knowing all your flying mounts can and should be able to. We know immersion is silly to argue but if your going to bring it up, I'd be more than happy to show you why flying makes more sense than no flying. Logic says my mounts can fly. Stupidity in design and development says they cannot.

It's interesting the way you use the word immersion. You seem to be in the mindset that immersion means one singular thing and any other definition which deviates from your narrow viewpoint must therefore be invalid. I had not intended to bring this up at this point as I have been drinking heavily since I got home, but since it reared its head I will throw this into the fray.

<Edit, cant post links at the moment you heathens, but do a search, look at the first few 'immersion'>

Not cherry picked but what a quick search on the definition would be. All have the common theme "Deep mental involvement." For some reason many people have come to the conclusion that immersion seems to be a synonym of 'realistic' (within the bounds of the world), or 'believable'. That for some reason immersion has the conclusion of "I believe I am there." This singular belief is quite outrageous, and although I do understand words have a chance to evolve and come to mean other things, to stick to one definition and damn all others is a dishonest way to conduct yourself.

Now it is purely my opinion that flight is immersion breaking in the way that it detaches the player from the landscape and that player no longer has a deep mental involvement in his surroundings. He now has one goal, to reach his next objective whatever that may be. He no longer has to pass between the gates of Gaar'nesh or traverse the slippery slopes of doom-ice mountain. He can simply go in one direction and drop down.

Whether or not that's how you want to play the game is not my concern, it seems to be for Blizzard though, and although there are good arguments for such a system where you can do this, to say it does not break 'immersion' in the context of involvement with your environment well there I disagree with you, and I do think it is an argument that can be made. Of course I have no desire to push my agenda on any person but to wave your hand away and dismiss the immersion argument by the grace of one singular definition well then I can give my opinions on the matter and enlighten others with a different slant on the matter which still comes from a logical background and not purely from my own imagination.

Because ultimately he knows I'm right about flying and why removing it isn't that great. He knows removing flying is nothing but a scapegoat to blizzards becoming more inept in development of story and content. Got to blame their failings on something, might as well be flying this go around.

And I have no problem with saying you like this or that as an opinion but when in the context of flying vs no flying. There are much more things weighting in on why flying is better there than not there. Blizzard and a few here can claim skipping mobs, or socialization or WPVP but truth is, removing flying isn't bringing those things to the game. We know flying isn't the paroblem because of past expansions and subs and back in those days, we had a bit better WPVP going on, better socialization and skipping ramdom trash mob #4593293 didn't mean jack shit. There are plently of things over that years that lets me know flying at max level is good and removing it is not something I'd support. It's not my only con(or pro for that matter)with WoD but it makes the top 5 cons list.

"I'm right, you're wrong." Yes, very good logical argument there, which is the crux of my argument from the beginning, I did not say whether you are right or wrong or what was the reality of the situation. I had given a statement that what you said on those lines had no place in your logical assessment on the status of WoW. The opinion that Blizzard had written a bad story and failed to deliver content that you found compelling is very much your own personal feelings on the matter. Although you gave a statement which gives one possible explanation to the decline of WoW, and it could very well be the truth of the matter, to pass it off as gospel is hideously self reverential. Not everybody shares your tastes, a point which people frequently bombard at many different groups in the WoW community as they should too.

I don't pretend to know the solution to WoW's problems and I can only speculate to what they are, you seem to like to tell me what they are, and I do not want that crammed into my fizzogg.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Except it wasn't an analysis it was pure speculation as it dismisses any other possible source for sub loss. All you have stated is.... 'I think it was shit, so we lost subscriptions because of that.' Completely dismissing the obvious arguments such as, older players having families and finding no time, people just becoming bored with WoW itself since its so old and WoW's failure to bring in new players because the hype has ebbed in the social consciousness causing a net flow to the minus? Or even the fact that people are just tired with it? No... it must be because the content and story which you labeled as not as good as previous as the reason to the downfall, totally dismissing any alternatives and not even addressing the fact that it is purely your own opinion that you've nailed to the crucifix of WoW.



Yes. on the flipside perhaps the story in WOTLK and TBC was so good that people were prepared to overlook the problems with flight, and its only since as you've described that 'the story and content are shit' (paraphrased) that the issue of flight has came up and the community can see that its pros and cons are somewhat unbalanced. You also leave out possible explanations such as product life cycle and media hype, see paragraph 1.

It can very well be the latter and not the former, but it is still pure speculation, backed only by a quirky anecdote and should not be lauded as truth like you are some sort of guru whose personal preferences on what constitutes 'good content' or 'good story' is an absolute truth that others share as a majority. I must add though that since it is purely subjective that personally I enjoyed MoP far more than I did TBC, to me the story and content was more compelling. I though, know that my personal opinion on the matter has no place being elevated to some lofty position. Don't be like that, simply because you did not like the content, does not give you the right to stamp it as the defining reason of WoWs decline. I did not say flying mounts caused the decrease in subscription numbers, and I never will.





It's interesting the way you use the word immersion. You seem to be in the mindset that immersion means one singular thing and any other definition which deviates from your narrow viewpoint must therefore be invalid. I had not intended to bring this up at this point as I have been drinking heavily since I got home, but since it reared its head I will throw this into the fray.

<Edit, cant post links at the moment you heathens, but do a search, look at the first few 'immersion'>

Not cherry picked but what a quick search on the definition would be. All have the common theme "Deep mental involvement." For some reason many people have come to the conclusion that immersion seems to be a synonym of 'realistic' (within the bounds of the world), or 'believable'. That for some reason immersion has the conclusion of "I believe I am there." This singular belief is quite outrageous, and although I do understand words have a chance to evolve and come to mean other things, to stick to one definition and damn all others is a dishonest way to conduct yourself.

Now it is purely my opinion that flight is immersion breaking in the way that it detaches the player from the landscape and that player no longer has a deep mental involvement in his surroundings. He now has one goal, to reach his next objective whatever that may be. He no longer has to pass between the gates of Gaar'nesh or traverse the slippery slopes of doom-ice mountain. He can simply go in one direction and drop down.

Whether or not that's how you want to play the game is not my concern, it seems to be for Blizzard though, and although there are good arguments for such a system where you can do this, to say it does not break 'immersion' in the context of involvement with your environment well there I disagree with you, and I do think it is an argument that can be made. Of course I have no desire to push my agenda on any person but to wave your hand away and dismiss the immersion argument by the grace of one singular definition well then I can give my opinions on the matter and enlighten others with a different slant on the matter which still comes from a logical background and not purely from my own imagination.




"I'm right, you're wrong." Yes, very good logical argument there, which is the crux of my argument from the beginning, I did not say whether you are right or wrong or what was the reality of the situation. I had given a statement that what you said on those lines had no place in your logical assessment on the status of WoW. The opinion that Blizzard had written a bad story and failed to deliver content that you found compelling is very much your own personal feelings on the matter. Although you gave a statement which gives one possible explanation to the decline of WoW, and it could very well be the truth of the matter, to pass it off as gospel is hideously self reverential. Not everybody shares your tastes, a point which people frequently bombard at many different groups in the WoW community as they should too.

I don't pretend to know the solution to WoW's problems and I can only speculate to what they are, you seem to like to tell me what they are, and I do not want that crammed into my fizzogg.

Very good post.

[Deleted]

Like I said every anti flight persons talking point countered w/logic and reason.

I'm sorry but I did have to laugh when I read this bit.

[Maneo]

Lets remind everyone what your actual "test" entailed..



A scenario that will never happen. Comparing flight path speeds to ground mount speeds while flight paths will always be an option to the player. Why should anyone believe anything you say after discrediting yourself so hard.

- - - Updated - - -



Forum debates are among the least constructive feedback. Blizzard has stated this fact before. To expect them to acknowledge this sort of player feedback is silly.

So let me get this straight ... the only travel time that matters is from quest hub to quest hub are you fucking serious. ... sorry man but are you just fucking stupid .. or in grade school.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm sorry but I did have to laugh when I read this bit.

Ok maybe not all ...

but in the majority every single anti flight argument has been countered, with no counter argument.

Give me a list I will shoot them all down just as I have done before ... or ya know you could just read the thread..

The only one I can't refute is "Have faith in Blizzard" ... me personally sorry I just don't

Hell talking to the guild in Wildstar they asked me why I left WoW told them... they sold a Collectors Edition Pre Order with a flying mount on the expac where they are not going to allow flying .... the whole room full of former and current WoW players... were all like WTF..

That being said I now know two more people that will quit if it isn't returned by 6.1

[Deleted]

These anti-flying RP-ers who are "going to populate the world" really look funny here. Good luck farming random barren mobs that give no reward while solving your two jumping puzzles they bothered to implement. You know, "to enrich the continent". While rest of us will do instanced content, the one that actually give reward for our time, and improve performance of my character, not just in my head.

Because, you know, we don't live in WoW, and actually have work and shit to do and can't spend 12 hours a day in game, traveling and "immersing ourselves in the beautiful world, that can only be better if we're all on the ground".

People already afk fuckton in shrines, waiting for ques/summons for instanced content, the one that actually mattes, because it's a MULTIPLAYER GAME. imagine if they remove flying mounts perma, world will be literally empty. I do feel bad for warlocks though, poor guys will be harrased to death by "123 omg summon, it takes forever to get there".

[Ordinator]

So let me get this straight ... the only travel time that matters is from quest hub to quest hub are you fucking serious. ... sorry man but are you just fucking stupid .. or in grade school.

You claim that travel times will increase by 50%. Judging by the beta maps, flight path hubs are extremely plentiful. Try to keep with me, I'm holding your hand through this.. Since there are a lot of flight path hubs and flight path times are comparable to flying mounts, travel time is virtually unaffected. The issue you have is the few step you have to take from the flight path hub to a quest area, rare mob, pet battle. Travel times WILL NOT increase by 50%.

Just because you honestly can't understand these facts doesn't mean you have to resort to personal attacks.

but in the majority every single anti flight argument has been countered, with no counter argument.

Give me a list I will shoot them all down just as I have done before ... or ya know you could just read the thread..

"I'm right, you're wrong" is NOT countering any argument at all. And that is LITERALLY all you've had to offer so far. That and personal attacks and a lot of cursing at people. So yea, nobody is taking you serious.

[Mafic]

These anti-flying RP-ers who are "going to populate the world" really look funny here. Good luck farming random barren mobs that give no reward while solving your two jumping puzzles they bothered to implement. You know, "to enrich the continent". While rest of us will do instanced content, the one that actually give reward for our time, and improve performance of my character, not just in my head.

Because, you know, we don't live in WoW, and actually have work and shit to do and can't spend 12 hours a day in game, traveling and "immersing ourselves in the beautiful world, that can only be better if we're all on the ground".

People already afk fuckton in shrines, waiting for ques/summons for instanced content, the one that actually mattes, because it's a MULTIPLAYER GAME. imagine if they remove flying mounts perma, world will be literally empty. I do feel bad for warlocks though, poor guys will be harrased to death by "123 omg summon, it takes forever to get there".

It is worse in my opinion in WoD and let me explain why: The shrines are on the MoP continent such that you can reach the rest of the continent in a reasonable time frame using your flying mount. If you choose to go to Timeless Isle though it probably is more faster to just use a portal to Stormwind/Orgrimmar and use the portal that takes you to Jade Forest. From there you can choose to use your flying mount or use the loopy flight path that eventually takes you to Timeless Isle. That is two portals to reach the "endgame content" of this expansion.

In WoD you need to navigate at least three portals to reach the WoD continent (From Ashran faction city--->garrison---->zone of choice) and note that you need to use one portal to reach the MoP continent. If most people choose to hang out in Ashran faction cities, garrisons or the Ashran (instanced) PVP zone that doesn't leave a lot of people left on the main continent. And throw in that a lot of WoD content is phased so a lot of leveling players pretty much will be invisible to level capped players.

Empty world is empty and professions (gathering) are not going to be enticing enough compared to Engineering or Alchemy despite taking away "combat perks". No flying ensures gathering professions remain relatively dead for most people.

[Maneo]

These anti-flying RP-ers who are "going to populate the world" really look funny here. Good luck farming random barren mobs that give no reward while solving your two jumping puzzles they bothered to implement. You know, "to enrich the continent". While rest of us will do instanced content, the one that actually give reward for our time, and improve performance of my character, not just in my head.

Because, you know, we don't live in WoW, and actually have work and shit to do and can't spend 12 hours a day in game, traveling and "immersing ourselves in the beautiful world, that can only be better if we're all on the ground".

People already afk fuckton in shrines, waiting for ques/summons for instanced content, the one that actually mattes, because it's a MULTIPLAYER GAME. imagine if they remove flying mounts perma, world will be literally empty. I do feel bad for warlocks though, poor guys will be harrased to death by "123 omg summon, it takes forever to get there".

To be fair I don't think the RP folks are the ones pushing so hard for anti flight. I think it is the PVP Rawr folks, those that are capital city que folks, and those that want the game to become a significant more time sink.

This is going to become w/out flight the world of que craft so much for making the world more alive.

- - - Updated - - -

You claim that travel times will increase by 50%. Judging by the beta maps, flight path hubs are extremely plentiful. Try to keep with me, I'm holding your hand through this.. Since there are a lot of flight path hubs and flight path times are comparable to flying mounts, travel time is virtually unaffected. The issue you have is the few step you have to take from the flight path hub to a quest area, rare mob, pet battle. Travel times WILL NOT increase by 50%.

Just because you honestly can't understand these facts doesn't mean you have to resort to personal attacks.



"I'm right, you're wrong" is NOT countering any argument at all. And that is LITERALLY all you've had to offer so far. That and personal attacks and a lot of cursing at people. So yea, nobody is taking you serious.

OMG yes there is going to be a flight path right next to my pet battle, my mining node, my rare... are you fucking serious ... are you even listening to what people are saying that are in FUCKING BETA?

I am done I can only take so much fucking stupid and I have reached my limit... if you are a kid, still in high school, I am sorry cause you obviously have a great deal to learn...

This ass hat is now on ignore... I am tired of talking to him dumb ass.

He doesn't listen to reason, he doesn't listen to the people that are already playing beta... maybe it is hard to hear with your face buried so far up Blizzs ass I don't know.

If anyone wants to bring an intelligent anti flight argument I will be happy to discuss it with them.



Infracted for flaming.

[Mafic]

To be fair I don't think the RP folks are the ones pushing so hard for anti flight. I think it is the PVP Rawr folks, those that are capital city que folks, and those that want the game to become a significant more time sink.

This is going to become w/out flight the world of que craft so much for making the world more alive.

Most of the world PVP raids currently happens on the faction main cities (Orgrimmar/Stormwind) because that is where most players are at (waiting for queues). But that isn't what Blizzard is pushing for because the Ashran faction cities are not instanced while the Ashran PVP zone that adjacent is instanced.

[Maneo]

It is worse in my opinion in WoD and let me explain why: The shrines are on the MoP continent such that you can reach the rest of the continent in a reasonable time frame using your flying mount. If you choose to go to Timeless Isle though it probably is more faster to just use a portal to Stormwind/Orgrimmar and use the portal that takes you to Jade Forest. From there you can choose to use your flying mount or use the loopy flight path that eventually takes you to Timeless Isle. That is two portals to reach the "endgame content" of this expansion.

In WoD you need to navigate at least three portals to reach the WoD continent (From Ashran faction city--->garrison---->zone of choice) and note that you need to use one portal to reach the MoP continent. If most people choose to hang out in Ashran faction cities, garrisons or the Ashran (instanced) PVP zone that doesn't leave a lot of people left on the main continent. And throw in that a lot of WoD content is phased so a lot of leveling players pretty much will be invisible to level capped players.

Empty world is empty and professions (gathering) are not going to be enticing enough compared to Engineering or Alchemy despite taking away "combat perks". No flying ensures gathering professions remain relatively dead for most people.

OMG thanks for going in detail about how it was set up. That is sad to say the least... I was already sad that we weren't getting the sweet capital cities.

[Deleted]

It is worse in my opinion in WoD and let me explain why: The shrines are on the MoP continent such that you can reach the rest of the continent in a reasonable time frame using your flying mount. If you choose to go to Timeless Isle though it probably is more faster to just use a portal to Stormwind/Orgrimmar and use the portal that takes you to Jade Forest. From there you can choose to use your flying mount or use the loopy flight path that eventually takes you to Timeless Isle. That is two portals to reach the "endgame content" of this expansion.

In WoD you need to navigate at least three portals to reach the WoD continent (From Ashran faction city--->garrison---->zone of choice) and note that you need to use one portal to reach the MoP continent. If most people choose to hang out in Ashran faction cities, garrisons or the Ashran (instanced) PVP zone that doesn't leave a lot of people left on the main continent. And throw in that a lot of WoD content is phased so a lot of leveling players pretty much will be invisible to level capped players.

Empty world is empty and professions (gathering) are not going to be enticing enough compared to Engineering or Alchemy despite taking away "combat perks". No flying ensures gathering professions remain relatively dead for most people.

Jesus Christ, World of Portalcraft. I just love loading screens, its my favourite part of immersion. Said no RP ever Just kidding, I'm just teasing them, I've went through some of their previous posts, most of them are heavy in RP and Lore, that's why. I do agree about PVP part, it's gonna be fucking horrible while random rogue jumps you while you're clearing mobs that dismounted you, and you don't even wanna kill. Talk about rage quit.

As for proffesions, second that, I'm dropping herbalism and mining as soon as I get there, and i'll just buy proffession kit or something, it's really not worth hassle or time I'm already short on.

[Dormie]

Oh no, I can't travel across a CONTINENT in less than 7 minutes. Woe is me. How will I survive?

[Maneo]

As for proffesions, second that, I'm dropping herbalism and mining as soon as I get there, and i'll just buy proffession kit or something, it's really not worth hassle or time I'm already short on.

yeah this isn't going to be a game anymore where you log on for raid nights, and log on a hour here or a hour there and still get shit accomplished... Horrible direction in my opinion.

Then again maybe that is what the anti flight people want more time consuming game play?

[Deleted]

Oh no, I can't travel across a CONTINENT in less than 7 minutes. Woe is me. How will I survive?

Brandon, I went through your posts, the amount of QQ you had in that thread about ganking was amazing. You're just shooting yourself in the foot mate, you'll get camped and griefed a lot. Unless you're on RP-PVE server, which I'd say you are.

Doesn't matter, this game is no longer for folk like you, WoW is far from being and RPG, aside in genre sense. D&D stuff is dead in modern MMO's, they've evolved, people live really fast and work, and want to be efficent with their time, and when they pay for something, they want to get the best out of it. Which in WoW part is instanced content, be that PVP or PVE. They are catering us, they have since TBC, with catch-up mechanisms, flying mounts, portals, and all other stuff that allows you to skip content and enjoy the best this game has to offer.

Those 7 minutes you mentioned usually for me means getting my sunsong ranch done in the morning, after I have my coffee and done browsing the net, afternoon is work from 12-20, then spending quality time with my GF or getting aggro from her because of raiding, and logging off as soon as "Raid over" pops in the middle of the screen.

[Drytoast]

Oh no, I can't travel across a CONTINENT in less than 7 minutes. Woe is me. How will I survive?

By playing a game that's more enjoyable!

[Ordinator]

By playing a game that's more enjoyable!

Slightly lower travel times is the deciding factor for video games for you? K go have fun with your other games lol.

[zorkuus]

Oh no, I can't travel across a CONTINENT in less than 7 minutes. Woe is me. How will I survive?

So you want to remove flight paths?

[Ordinator]

OMG yes there is going to be a flight path right next to my pet battle, my mining node, my rare... are you fucking serious ... are you even listening to what people are saying that are in FUCKING BETA?

I am done I can only take so much fucking stupid and I have reached my limit... if you are a kid, still in high school, I am sorry cause you obviously have a great deal to learn...

This ass hat is now on ignore... I am tired of talking to him dumb ass.

He doesn't listen to reason, he doesn't listen to the people that are already playing beta... maybe it is hard to hear with your face buried so far up Blizzs ass I don't know.

If anyone wants to bring an intelligent anti flight argument I will be happy to discuss it with them.

How are you not banned yet? I've responded to every post of yours in an intelligible manner and all you have to offer is rage? Even this post of yours is a perfect example of the "I'm right, you're wrong" type of argument that is seemingly all you have to offer to the discussion.