Poll: Is the level 90 boost pay to win?

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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by blackblade View Post
    A) Generally speaking, players who level to 60 will have some form of riding skill, and the time it takes to go from 0-to-60 on a vanilla account is usually comparable to the time it'd take a level 90 to farm out 600 on two (or three if they use a gathering tradeskill to farm out the mats for two 0-600 skills themselves, and then drop it) tradeskills. (subjective, this is my experience and the actual time might be more or less.)
    B) The people who get a massive advantage out of this are the guys who abuse Recruit a friend (which, you could argue that this functionality basically replaces) because they generally don't need to purchase flying training at all if they've got a second account with a two-seat-mount, and just boost dungeons.
    C) The amount of gold you'd obtain leveling normally 1-90 is likely close to or more than the sum of what you get using the boost; the exception being maybe the tradeskills. (But I'm not sure what, if any, recipies they're going to give you, so people boosting are still going to have to do work to get any worthwhile recipes (BS needs klaxxi for belt buckle, Enchanting need shado-pan for weapon enchants; celestials for bracers, engineers need a lot for jeeves, etc.))
    You keep saying that "they would have gotten this gold if they had leveled" or whatever. Did you miss the point? They didn't level at all. They bought the boost.

    I'm sure there's no changing your opinion on the matter, but let's go a little deeper into defining P2W, for argument's sake.

    P2W is generally cases where in order to play a game competitively, you need to get over a paywall of some sort. Generally speaking, "Buying time" type mechanics (where you speed up what you can achieve or pay to skip content ala the 90 boost) are only P2W if the "normal" way of doing things is unrealistic. Basically, 'True' P2W only really occurs in F2P games, and are looked upon with disdain because they're essentially a bait-and-switch. "Play for Free!" when the reality is the "Free" option basically lets you load up the game, and you need to pay to even have a chance at staying competitive or being able to really use core features of the game.

    Overall. It's good in the long term because it'll help give an influx of new players. Conceptually, selling them in the cash shop is there to stop people from trying a funky workaround and having to contact and burden support if they mess it up trying to get additional 90's.
    I'm heavily versed on MMOs, F2P, P2W, etc. You don't need to explain these things to me. This constant arguement over semantics is why I was shifting the focus away from the term "Pay to Win" to begin with because it's vague and is not the issue we should be discussing.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by NathSB View Post
    Hah, this. Luckily I had some mail tokens for my hunter, but TI is still painful.
    Really, the trick to TI is to focus on the one-time chests. then use coins to buy mogu runes of fate, and start rolling on ToT LFR bosses that drop class appropriate weapons. I wouldn't bother trying to grind mobs for anything until you've got an ilvl 500+ weapon in your hands.

  3. #203
    Deleted
    Bunch of poor people.

    What you need to do is to buy gold after buying your character so you can buy gear for your bought character.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    How far it boosts you doesn't matter. The fact is that you are paying money to skip a major chunk of character progression. I leveled a monk using BoAs and the monk XP perk a few weeks ago, and it took me nearly 5 days of played time to get from 1-90. It was faster to gear out in full honor gear by doing dungeons (nearly 2 days) than it was to get from 1-90 with leveling perks.

    Compared to people who are already max level? Character boost isn't really a factor. But to anyone new to the game or without max level characters, the boost is a significant time saver, allowing you to progress your character through the content everyone else had to do without actually having to do it.

    That's why it's pay to win.

    What are you winning? Which competition are you entering in which you can win? You are paying. Yes, the part of the pay is obvious. But how exactly are you winning? Do you consider a fresh 90 someone who won something? Over whom? Because if you are consider someone reaching max level a winner then we are ALL losers. The world first person to 90 won. We all lost. So we are at max Paying to not be last.

    That is, of course, if you are about being first to max level. Obviously. If you don't, then... well.. again, who is winning and against whom?

  5. #205
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiev View Post
    What are you winning? Which competition are you entering in which you can win? You are paying. Yes, the part of the pay is obvious. But how exactly are you winning? Do you consider a fresh 90 someone who won something? Over whom? Because if you are consider someone reaching max level a winner then we are ALL losers. The world first person to 90 won. We all lost. So we are at max Paying to not be last.

    That is, of course, if you are about being first to max level. Obviously. If you don't, then... well.. again, who is winning and against whom?
    This pretty much. I still havent seen a single answer to what people are actually WINNING by using this service.

    The only thing i see people mindlessly repeating is that "its a slippery slope and soon you will buy legendary with money".

    Save your pay2win-threads for when people actually "win the game" buy paying blizzard. This thread is getting really retarded.

  6. #206
    This is really starting to piss me off.. It isnt pay to win because when i did my Hunter i didnt get any Heroic Warforged gear... I got shitty 483 gear and i need to gear up from there.. How do people even consider this Pay to win?? All it is, Is i decided i dont want to level anymore and wanted to pay the 60$ to get a level 90 i choose which is worth more my time. My money i earnt at work or taking the time to level.

    Get over it. ITS NOT FUCKEN PAY TO WIN
    "Prepare for the unknown by studying how others in the past have coped with the unforeseeable and the unpredictable."
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  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by silvercentric View Post
    You keep saying that "they would have gotten this gold if they had leveled" or whatever. Did you miss the point? They didn't level at all. They bought the boost.



    I'm heavily versed on MMOs, F2P, P2W, etc. You don't need to explain these things to me. This constant arguement over semantics is why I was shifting the focus away from the term "Pay to Win" to begin with because it's vague and is not the issue we should be discussing.
    The zero-sum, though is that they're not getting 'a bunch of free gold because they had all this stuff unlocked'. It is kind of stupid, especially if Blizzard thinks this will work in place of fixing the rough patches of levelling content, or making levelling a more consistent experience, I don't think it's P2W. I agree it's stupid, but I don't think the fixation on 'what they get for how much' is really the problem, but more the 'why are we in this situation in the first place?' Giving a "new" player a max level character to dink around on and maybe feed a potential alt is appealing. Alternatively, it could create a strain of players who are wholly dependant on the boost.

    Levelling is long. Levelling is generally a solo experience, as levelling with other people usually takes longer, and encountering people out in the wild is uncommon, and having a reason to actually interact with them is even less common; Most will pretend you're not there, and many times the games mechanics will encourage you to pretend they're not there either. Furthermore, quest objectives have had lots of work done in the 0-60 part that makes it pretty clear what you need to do, and DB's like Wowhead do a significantly better job at clarifying it than the often vacant general chat. (who, when not vacant, will tell you to go to wowhead anyway)

    Levelling is inconsistent. There's "Fast" parts, and "Slow" parts. There's "Good" parts and there's "Bad" parts. Moving from 0-60, to 60-80 is like going off a residential street onto a freeway, going back to 80-90 is like hitting a traffic jam, and the variety that you had levelling 0-80 goes away into a very linear climb to 90, with a strangely slower pace.

    So really, what if, instead of offering a service to skip levelling, there was some effort put into making levelling not suck? not feel like a chore or a merciless grind?

    (answer: It'll cost you a raid tier. I'm joking. But not really.)

    Additionally, it sounds like they're making improvements to the way we level in WoD; Things like one-time bonus objectives, random world micro-events, and maybe integration of random scenarios pre-endgame to help get a break for questing en-masse. Having flight locked down for the first patch means you're more likely to run into max level players (for better or worse) and might (doubtful) even bring some of the social aspect of questing back.

    The draw is that it introduces more inconsistency in the leveling experience. Brave souls who do the 0-100 climb are going to hit MoP content, and go 'fuuuuuuck' then hit WoD content and find themselves with all these extra avenues for XP.
    Last edited by blackblade; 2014-03-11 at 11:51 PM.

  8. #208
    Deleted
    You will get low gear, no professions. It wont make you into LFR or Flex.

  9. #209
    Elemental Lord Korgoth's Avatar
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    What did they win Bob? They won a Brand NEW 100 HRS OF GRINDING GEAR! Congrats...
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
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  10. #210
    @Blackblade
    I agree completely, I'll just repost my thread here since there's no way the mod would ever un-hide it:

    ---

    What does it say about your game when you have players who are willing to pay money to skip content? You now have players who are paying the full price of a retail game so they can skip content.

    Is there not something inherently flawed with that? Why did they resort to microtransactions instead of an in-game based solution?

    I've been a huge fan of Blizzard for such a long time. Warcraft 2 was my first RTS, Diablo II was awesome, Warcraft 3 was the best and also set me down my programming career path. Seeing them do this to their game is just depressing. But even worse is seeing a community that is willing to accept such behavior and even go at lengths to defend it.

    I understand fully that that players want to get to the most recent content, especially veteran players who are looking to make more alts, but why are you not pushing for an in-game solution?

    Edit: Easy, simple solution: Put in an account wide quest that can be completed once a month that allows you to boost a level 90. Once a month is an arbitrary number obviously, it could be adjusted as necessary.

  11. #211
    Herald of the Titans Pancaspe's Avatar
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    Pay $60, log in to Timeless Isle only to be farmed for Bloody Coins.

    Yup, that sure is Paying to Win.
    @Ghostcrawler:Some advice: [My pet issue] is why there were sub losses is one of the weaker arguments players use. Players don't have that data.

  12. #212
    Deleted
    Well, you are able to farm gear much faster than if you started at level 1.
    I would say yes and no at the same time.

  13. #213
    What are you winning? Which competition are you entering in which you can win? You are paying. Yes, the part of the pay is obvious. But how exactly are you winning? Do you consider a fresh 90 someone who won something? Over whom? Because if you are consider someone reaching max level a winner then we are ALL losers. The world first person to 90 won. We all lost. So we are at max Paying to not be last.

    That is, of course, if you are about being first to max level. Obviously. If you don't, then... well.. again, who is winning and against whom?
    The term 'winning' doesn't really apply to Wow in the traditional sense of completing or finishing the game successfully (like it does with other games you would apply the term 'pay to win' to). Instead, the game is about progression. You create a level 1 character and you progress that character through the game, never really completing or finishing it. Sure, you're successful at lots of stuff, earning individual rewards and achievements along the way, but even if you do everything there is to do in the game on one character, you still have other classes/races/factions to make a character as to experience the game with all over again. Then, a new patch/expansion comes out and you have brand new content to do.

    So when it comes to wow, progression is 'winning.' The level 90 boost lets to bypass a huge chunk of progression, thereby letting you 'win' by paying $60. This is why it's pay to win, even if a large portion of ignorant people disagree.

  14. #214
    Any answer other than yes is wrong.

  15. #215
    Banned -Superman-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShimmerSwirl View Post
    According to this ridiculous definition, even the Korean grindfest p2w MMOs are not actually p2w.
    Just my take on things. WINNING something means there is an end to the game, and someone else lost.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nightmann View Post
    Any answer other than yes is probably just another opinion like the person saying yes.
    Fixed that. People have opinions and should be able to voice them. Your judgement of their personal take on the matter is of little consequence in the grand scheme of subjectivity.

  16. #216
    Like any of the other 90s who can't do a dungeon without being carried are winning?

    So no. Not one of these 90's is relevant other than to the LFRs they're going to crap up with their noobishness, and LFR certainly isn't winning anyhow.

  17. #217
    Since it's an MMO and we'll never all agree on a definition for "win", this discussion is somewhat pointless.

    Enjoy the game for yourself through whatever path gives you pleasure.

    Do not spend time worrying about whether some other person is enjoying it differently than you, or that they might get somewhere faster or easier than you did/will. Life is too short.

    PF.

  18. #218
    Immortal roahn the warlock's Avatar
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    It is yes or no based on the individual.

    This is the only answer to this question
    It was never Hardcore Vs Casual. It was Socialites Vs. Solo players
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game.

  19. #219
    How the hell is hitting level 90 "Pay to win" ?

    Win what exactly?

    Christ, this OP seriously didn't think about it before making such a STUPID thread...

  20. #220
    Deleted
    At the rate that LFR progress is going with these influx of fresh 90s, nobody's winning anything.

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