[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[KOUNTERPARTS]

He's . . . just a guy. Give Sam super-soldier serum and pumpkin bombs, and there you have it; Norman Osborn as the Green Goblin and his entire power set. He only poses a significant issue for Peter Parker because of the personal relationships involved mucking everything up.

I'd be hard-pressed to figure out why Hawkeye doesn't just put an arrow in his skull some evening, if they decide he's an Avengers-level threat.

As I've been typing this up I've been trying to find the link I saved a couple years ago where this leak comes from. It was originally on Reddit (lo and behold, has been deleted) but it was posted on other sites I frequent. Going to keep trying to find it and post it here.


If memory serves, Osborn was going to be presented as a threat more-so based on his intelligence, money/power/influence, and a "catalyst to bring together the other big villains" which reads to me as a Sinister Six or Dark Avengers. But I also think that presents an issue with too many cooks in the kitchen on the big screen.


But yeah if he was ever found out, it wouldn't take much for him to be dealt with almost immediately. That's why I hope this leak about him is not true. I'd much rather a Dr. Doom or some other actually-powerful villain.


Unless the MCU does away with the whole concept of an over-arching villain in the background across many films altogether.

[minkage]

I stopped reading comics in the early 2000's but it was my understanding they made Norman Osborn into a Lex Luthor style villian. Super Genius, Wealthy and String Puller and turned him from a Spidey villian to an Avengers villian.

It actually sounds like a good change

[s_bushido]

He's . . . just a guy.

meh. Iron Man was just some b-list hero no one really cared about before the MCU kicked off. If they want to turn Osborn from the cackling crazy dude on a flying skateboard into something more Lex Luthor like, that sounds reasonable to me. Maybe set up some sort of nega-Avengers group (I'm sure it's been done before) with him as either the Nick Fury or Tony Stark of the operation.

Whatever they do is going to be hard to top the "epic" of Endgame and everything that lead up to it. So they may as well not bother going down that route, and do something different instead. Assuming this is anything more than just a rumor to begin with.

[Shadowferal]

meh. Iron Man was just some b-list hero no one really cared about before the MCU kicked off.

That describes all of the them.

[Endus]

meh. Iron Man was just some b-list hero no one really cared about before the MCU kicked off. If they want to turn Osborn from the cackling crazy dude on a flying skateboard into something more Lex Luthor like, that sounds reasonable to me. Maybe set up some sort of nega-Avengers group (I'm sure it's been done before) with him as either the Nick Fury or Tony Stark of the operation.

Whatever they do is going to be hard to top the "epic" of Endgame and everything that lead up to it. So they may as well not bother going down that route, and do something different instead. Assuming this is anything more than just a rumor to begin with.

What I mean is, with Thanos, he wasn't a problem any one Avenger could solve. There needed to be big team-ups.

Norman Osborn? He's literally just a guy. You could shoot him in the head if he's not in costume (I think the green goblin getup is armored?) Same for Tony, sure, but Osborn isn't up to Tony Stark's caliber. Nor Banners, nor Suri's, to stick to tech heads that are still around. Spider-man by himself has been enough in most cases to take down Norman, or even the full Sinister Six. I just don't see that Osborn scales up, and it's hard for him to "mean" much to anyone but Peter. He also doesn't tie in to the mystical world at all, when they're going to be making Wanda and Strange a bigger factor in the next chunk, apparently.

Doom is much different. Consistently wins even against the Avengers united, or at least escapes to try again. Ties in to the scientific and magical worlds. Global threat, as he controls a world superpower whose military might can stand up to the USA's toe-to-toe. And so on. If you want an overarching big bad, you need something of that scale. Doom's just the easiest Earth-focused one that I can think of; most of the rest are cosmic in some sense, like Galactus. Or are likely not showing up because of ties to X-men, like Magneto. There's probably some lesser-rans that Marvel could pump up, too, it just feels weird to see Norman Osborn even as a possibility. Frankly, Justin Hammer would make more sense, as he's at least already been introduced.

Other options I'd rank WAY ahead of Osborn, off the top of my head;
Mephisto
Galactus (but likely would feel too samey with Thanos)
The Kree, in a "world invasion" sense, along with the Supreme Intelligence, as at least that's already introduced in Captain Marvel.
And, of course, Doom.

[Jotaux]

Doesn't Dark Reign follow from the fallout of Secret Invasion? Osborn was a major threat in that.

[minkage]

What I mean is, with Thanos, he wasn't a problem any one Avenger could solve. There needed to be big team-ups.

Norman Osborn? He's literally just a guy. You could shoot him in the head if he's not in costume (I think the green goblin getup is armored?) Same for Tony, sure, but Osborn isn't up to Tony Stark's caliber. Nor Banners, nor Suri's, to stick to tech heads that are still around. Spider-man by himself has been enough in most cases to take down Norman, or even the full Sinister Six. I just don't see that Osborn scales up, and it's hard for him to "mean" much to anyone but Peter. He also doesn't tie in to the mystical world at all, when they're going to be making Wanda and Strange a bigger factor in the next chunk, apparently.

Doom is much different. Consistently wins even against the Avengers united, or at least escapes to try again. Ties in to the scientific and magical worlds. Global threat, as he controls a world superpower whose military might can stand up to the USA's toe-to-toe. And so on. If you want an overarching big bad, you need something of that scale. Doom's just the easiest Earth-focused one that I can think of; most of the rest are cosmic in some sense, like Galactus. Or are likely not showing up because of ties to X-men, like Magneto. There's probably some lesser-rans that Marvel could pump up, too, it just feels weird to see Norman Osborn even as a possibility. Frankly, Justin Hammer would make more sense, as he's at least already been introduced.

Other options I'd rank WAY ahead of Osborn, off the top of my head;
Mephisto
Galactus (but likely would feel too samey with Thanos)
The Kree, in a "world invasion" sense, along with the Supreme Intelligence, as at least that's already introduced in Captain Marvel.
And, of course, Doom.

I get what you are saying and I would much rather Doom but I think you are underselling how they made Norman Osborn way more then the green goblin in the past 10 years.
He was in Charge of SHIELD for a good while also heading up the Dark Avengers and Thunderbolts as the Iron Patriot (cap and ironman combined). He literally headed a team that had Dr Doom, Namor, Loki and other villians as his underlings.

- - - Updated - - -

[s_bushido]

Norman Osborn? He's literally just a guy. You could shoot him in the head if he's not in costume (I think the green goblin getup is armored?).

This is a world with stuff like Extremis, vibranium, and nanotechnology that's basically magic...as well as literal magic. There's nothing stopping them writing a story where you can't just shoot a villain like that in the head.

Osborn wouldn’t be my first choice either, but “he’s just a guy” isn’t really a valid reason anymore.

[Bodakane]

What I mean is, with Thanos, he wasn't a problem any one Avenger could solve. There needed to be big team-ups.

Norman Osborn? He's literally just a guy. You could shoot him in the head if he's not in costume (I think the green goblin getup is armored?) Same for Tony, sure, but Osborn isn't up to Tony Stark's caliber. Nor Banners, nor Suri's, to stick to tech heads that are still around. Spider-man by himself has been enough in most cases to take down Norman, or even the full Sinister Six. I just don't see that Osborn scales up, and it's hard for him to "mean" much to anyone but Peter. He also doesn't tie in to the mystical world at all, when they're going to be making Wanda and Strange a bigger factor in the next chunk, apparently.

Doom is much different. Consistently wins even against the Avengers united, or at least escapes to try again. Ties in to the scientific and magical worlds. Global threat, as he controls a world superpower whose military might can stand up to the USA's toe-to-toe. And so on. If you want an overarching big bad, you need something of that scale. Doom's just the easiest Earth-focused one that I can think of; most of the rest are cosmic in some sense, like Galactus. Or are likely not showing up because of ties to X-men, like Magneto. There's probably some lesser-rans that Marvel could pump up, too, it just feels weird to see Norman Osborn even as a possibility. Frankly, Justin Hammer would make more sense, as he's at least already been introduced.

Other options I'd rank WAY ahead of Osborn, off the top of my head;
Mephisto
Galactus (but likely would feel too samey with Thanos)
The Kree, in a "world invasion" sense, along with the Supreme Intelligence, as at least that's already introduced in Captain Marvel.
And, of course, Doom.

I think Marvel comics have been trying to make Osborn the Lex Luthor of marvel, as of late. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

What I mean is, with Thanos, he wasn't a problem any one Avenger could solve. There needed to be big team-ups.

Norman Osborn? He's literally just a guy. You could shoot him in the head if he's not in costume (I think the green goblin getup is armored?) Same for Tony, sure, but Osborn isn't up to Tony Stark's caliber.

With tony out of the picture they could easily pull a dark avengers/siege story arc with him stealing abunch of stark/shield tech changing it up a but and then setting up hammer to replace shield.

Introduce characters like ares to show that other pantheons are a thing pull in the daredevil bullseye or make a new one and bring in some one like sentry to have a big villain beat down with at the end when he goes full void.

Normal him self might be just a guy but he could easily be the guy who leads to bigger threats being put on the board.

- - - Updated - - -

I think Marvel comics have been trying to make Osborn the Lex Luthor of marvel, as of late. Maybe I'm wrong.

Not as of late but a while ago he was the lex Luthor of marvel back in the dark avengers-siege era that followed the secret invasion event.

In recent years he’s just gone back to a spidy villain.

[Endus]

With tony out of the picture they could easily pull a dark avengers/siege story arc with him stealing abunch of stark/shield tech changing it up a but and then setting up hammer to replace shield.

Introduce characters like ares to show that other pantheons are a thing pull in the daredevil bullseye or make a new one and bring in some one like sentry to have a big villain beat down with at the end when he goes full void.

Normal him self might be just a guy but he could easily be the guy who leads to bigger threats being put on the board.

I can definitely see Osborn holding a role similar to Loki's in the last arc; an early "big bad" who's complex enough to not be mindlessly awful, working as an agent of whoever's really pulling the strings. I like Osborn as a character, I just feel he's gonna feel too "minor league" if he's meant to be the Thanos analogue for the next 20ish films.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I can definitely see Osborn holding a role similar to Loki's in the last arc; an early "big bad" who's complex enough to not be mindlessly awful, working as an agent of whoever's really pulling the strings. I like Osborn as a character, I just feel he's gonna feel too "minor league" if he's meant to be the Thanos analogue for the next 20ish films.

ya really he'd need to be s string puller to get bigger threats together as even in say siege he was just a joke to get smacked and turn green while the sentry was the real big bad.

[Kyphael]

Here's more or less the most interesting things that will be happening in Phase 4; beware of spoilers if leaks prove true, and some of it is personal predictions:

Spider-man FFH will be both a Spider-verse movie, introduce Sinister Six (Shocker, Doc Ock, Mysterio, Lizard, Vulture, Sandman) and serve as a launching pad for Norman Osborne who will put together the Sinister Six. Tobey, Garfield, and Holland beat the Sinister Six, and send them packing. Norman Osborne is set up as the villain for Avengers 5.

Dr. Strange 2 will full blown bring mutants into existence in the MCU, somehow, some way. House of M reverse level event? Alternate universes? Universes merging? Who knows. Expect a lot of cameos. Tom Cruise as Tony Stark. Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool. Hugh Jackman as Wolverine.

Black Panther 2 was/is expected to introduce both Namor and Dr. Doom, as cameo and puppet-master. A Storm cameo was almost a given before Chadwick's unfortunate passing, but then they had to re-structure the story.

I fully expect Carol Danvers to be phased out of the MCU in Captain Marvel 2. That means Rogue putting her in a coma to give the character a rest until they decide to bring her back (if they do.) Monica and Ms. Marvel step up and become the new focus.

I have no idea what to expect out of Eternals. I really don't, I know next to nothing about them, even after reading leaks. It made no sense to me.

[Endus]

Here's more or less the most interesting things that will be happening in Phase 4; beware of spoilers if leaks prove true, and some of it is personal predictions:

Spider-man FFH will be both a Spider-verse movie, introduce Sinister Six (Shocker, Doc Ock, Mysterio, Lizard, Vulture, Sandman) and serve as a launching pad for Norman Osborne who will put together the Sinister Six. Tobey, Garfield, and Holland beat the Sinister Six, and send them packing. Norman Osborne is set up as the villain for Avengers 5.

Dr. Strange 2 will full blown bring mutants into existence in the MCU, somehow, some way. House of M reverse level event? Alternate universes? Universes merging? Who knows. Expect a lot of cameos. Tom Cruise as Tony Stark. Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool. Hugh Jackman as Wolverine.

Black Panther 2 was/is expected to introduce both Namor and Dr. Doom, as cameo and puppet-master. A Storm cameo was almost a given before Chadwick's unfortunate passing, but then they had to re-structure the story.

I fully expect Carol Danvers to be phased out of the MCU in Captain Marvel 2. That means Rogue putting her in a coma to give the character a rest until they decide to bring her back (if they do.) Monica and Ms. Marvel step up and become the new focus.

I have no idea what to expect out of Eternals. I really don't, I know next to nothing about them, even after reading leaks. It made no sense to me.

I'll eat my shirt if Strange brings mutants in. That entire "theory" is just people hearing "multiverse" and knowing Fox was just bought up by Disney and leaping to UTTERLY unwarranted conclusions.

Such obviously bad conclusions Wandavision trolled them with Evan Peters' casting, and then very obviously made him clearly no one important.

We may get some burst of energy that causes mutations, but the cast of the X-men films are almost certainly not showing up as those characters, ever.

As for Spider-man, assuming you meant "No Way Home", since FFH already came out a couple years back, we know Foxx and Molina are reprising Electro and Doc Ock, but nothing about the rest of the Sinister Six. Even the two of them in one film is more than enough.

The idea of a Storm cameo in Black Panther 2 is literally just X-men fanatics desperately hoping for X-men to be part of the MCU, and again, there's zero indication that's happening. And even if some show up, almost certainly gonna be recast, and probably with fresh origins.

And the idea that they're phasing Carol Danvers out is just baffling. Must be the same people who kept claiming Captain Marvel was a flop and nobody liked it, when that movie made over a billion dollars. She's one of their most bankable characters, especially given that not counting Avengers team-up films, the only solo-character films to top that were characters that were retired (Tony Stark, Steve Rogers) or whose actor passed away (Boseman). Captain Marvel pulled more in than any Tom Holland Spider-man, any Thor film, any Ant-man, etc.

Plus, we know what her next film is; The Marvels. Also starring Monica Rambeau and Kamala Khan, as introduced in Wandavision and the upcoming Ms. Marvel Disney+ series. So whoever made that claim is just pulling a phenomenal ass-pull based on personal issues they have with the character for some cockamamie reason.

[Kyphael]

I'll eat my shirt if Strange brings mutants in. That entire "theory" is just people hearing "multiverse" and knowing Fox was just bought up by Disney and leaping to UTTERLY unwarranted conclusions.

Such obviously bad conclusions Wandavision trolled them with Evan Peters' casting, and then very obviously made him clearly no one important.

We may get some burst of energy that causes mutations, but the cast of the X-men films are almost certainly not showing up as those characters, ever.

As for Spider-man, assuming you meant "No Way Home", since FFH already came out a couple years back, we know Foxx and Molina are reprising Electro and Doc Ock, but nothing about the rest of the Sinister Six. Even the two of them in one film is more than enough.

The idea of a Storm cameo in Black Panther 2 is literally just X-men fanatics desperately hoping for X-men to be part of the MCU, and again, there's zero indication that's happening. And even if some show up, almost certainly gonna be recast, and probably with fresh origins.

And the idea that they're phasing Carol Danvers out is just baffling. Must be the same people who kept claiming Captain Marvel was a flop and nobody liked it, when that movie made over a billion dollars. She's one of their most bankable characters, especially given that not counting Avengers team-up films, the only solo-character films to top that were characters that were retired (Tony Stark, Steve Rogers) or whose actor passed away (Boseman). Captain Marvel pulled more in than any Tom Holland Spider-man, any Thor film, any Ant-man, etc.

Plus, we know what her next film is; The Marvels. Also starring Monica Rambeau and Kamala Khan, as introduced in Wandavision and the upcoming Ms. Marvel Disney+ series. So whoever made that claim is just pulling a phenomenal ass-pull based on personal issues they have with the character for some cockamamie reason.

A "burst of energy" or event is what I meant. A catalyst event to introduce mutants into the MCU. I didn't mean mutants appearing left and right, a Hugh Jackman cameo notwithstanding. That's just more fan service than to serve any purpose for the narrative.

Evan Peters on Wandavision was a good troll job but does not eliminate the actual Evan Peters Quicksilver from appearing in the MCU down the line if they choose to. All bets are off in alternate universes. They can easily have two or even three Quicksilvers running around.

I meant NWH, yeah, it's late for me and also meant Electro, not Shocker, obviously. I'll eat MY shirt if the Sinister Six don't appear in NWH. No way Electro and Doc Ock are enough for three Spider-men, and any other surprises they might have (Miles Morales? Spider-gwen?)

By Storm cameo I meant a white-haired woman discovering her abilities to control the weather in or near Wakanda in an after credits scene, not Halle Berry popping up in the middle of the movie.

I don't get involved in the politics or social media crap involving actors in movies. I don't even have a FB account, or use Twitter. I just read articles, unfounded as they may be, about Brie Larson maybe not becoming the focus of the MCU as was originally planned, and them possibly phasing her out. (Why else titled it The Marvels?) It'd make sense to introduce Rogue and put her out of commission to give Brie a break if she wants it. Also, not criticizing Captain Marvel the movie, its performance or anything, but one would be foolish to not recognize it was PERFECTLY, strategically-placed to succeed. It was sandwiched between Infinity War and Endgame. You could have released a Squirrel Girl movie in that slot and it would have made a billion dollars due to the insane cliffhanger Infinity War and subsequent marketing machine for Endgame cross-selling whatever MCU movie came out precisely in that window in time.

The Marvels will be a better test for Brie Larson and the character's drawing power.

[Egomaniac]

Also, not criticizing Captain Marvel the movie, its performance or anything, but one would be foolish to not recognize it was PERFECTLY, strategically-placed to succeed. It was sandwiched between Infinity War and Endgame. You could have released a Squirrel Girl movie in that slot and it would have made a billion dollars due to the insane cliffhanger Infinity War and subsequent marketing machine for Endgame cross-selling whatever MCU movie came out precisely in that window in time.

That's objectively not true. Antman and The Wasp was released in that same window and it didn't perform nearly as well as Captain Marvel.

People really need to get off this "Captain Marvel only did well because of Infinity War" nonsense.

I meant NWH, yeah, it's late for me and also meant Electro, not Shocker, obviously. I'll eat MY shirt if the Sinister Six don't appear in NWH. No way Electro and Doc Ock are enough for three Spider-men, and any other surprises they might have (Miles Morales? Spider-gwen?)

The "3 Spider-Men" thing is a rumour. Andrew Garfield has officially denied having any part in NWH and Maguire hasn't said anything.

[Endus]

That's objectively not true. Antman and The Wasp was released in that same window and it didn't perform nearly as well as Captain Marvel.

People really need to get off this "Captain Marvel only did well because of Infinity War" nonsense.

And let's not forget Scott was way more important, as in "completely critical" to even having a chance at correcting the Snap. Even if you want to pull the "it was important to the big team-up film, plot-wise", Ant-man and the Wasp was a direct setup for the entire plot of Infinity War, whereas the Captain Marvel film just set up the backstory for a character who was a useful but arguably non-essential (as much as anyone was) member of the team.

But, no Ant-man? No Quantum Realm, no time travel, no movie.

Still didn't do as well as Captain Marvel. It wasn't Infinity War. People just actually liked Captain Marvel.

And before anyone posts brigaded audience scores at me, ticket sales speak for themselves.

[Egomaniac]

And before anyone posts brigaded audience scores at me, ticket sales speak for themselves.

You mean all those tickets that Disney bought to cover for empty theaters? /s.

[Volardelis]

I can definitely see Osborn holding a role similar to Loki's in the last arc; an early "big bad" who's complex enough to not be mindlessly awful, working as an agent of whoever's really pulling the strings. I like Osborn as a character, I just feel he's gonna feel too "minor league" if he's meant to be the Thanos analogue for the next 20ish films.

Or he could act as an overarching secondary antagonist like Hydra was for the Infinity Saga. I can see a Lex Luthor style Osborn fitting into that role. Not a huge threat to warrant an Avengers movie as the main antagonist (I mean Hydra's involvement in Age of Ultron is mainly served for laughs while also setting up the plot), but a large enough threat to have key roles in multiple movies.

I mean Hydra appeared in the following MCU movies.

Obviously First Avenger and Winter Soldier as the main antagonists
Age of Ultron, Civil War, Iron man 2 (retroactive), Thor (also retroactive) and Ant-man either as secondary threats or small cameos. With Red Skull showing up for cameos in Infinity War and Endgame, but I wouldn't count them as he is not part of Hydra at that time. Thanks to the space and soul stones :P

While also being a major threat in Agents of SHIELD which went into their history with Hive.

[RobertoCarlos]

And let's not forget Scott was way more important, as in "completely critical" to even having a chance at correcting the Snap. Even if you want to pull the "it was important to the big team-up film, plot-wise", Ant-man and the Wasp was a direct setup for the entire plot of Infinity War, whereas the Captain Marvel film just set up the backstory for a character who was a useful but arguably non-essential (as much as anyone was) member of the team.

But, no Ant-man? No Quantum Realm, no time travel, no movie.

Still didn't do as well as Captain Marvel. It wasn't Infinity War. People just actually liked Captain Marvel.

And before anyone posts brigaded audience scores at me, ticket sales speak for themselves.

wonder woman also did really well and that movie was ok with a bad finale like a lot of hero flicks.

Its almost like there was a market waiting for female heroes.