1. #11701
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    i dont even really see doom as a villain tbh. more neutral
    He's not "neutral". He's a Lawful Evil Megalomaniac.

  2. #11702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    i dont even really see doom as a villain tbh. more neutral
    Doom basically embodies the question; is an absolutely brutal and ruthless dictator, who nevertheless holds the welfare of his people as his mission, a better or worse option than freedom and liberty and the risks inherent within?

    What he's willing to do in pursuit of his goals is absolutely "evil" by any definition. But his goals are . . . complicated. He seeks to subjugate, but not really for personal glorification, but because Doom really does know better, and everyone'll be better off if he gets to run the show.

    That's what makes him a great villain. He's right up there with Magneto and at least the MCU iteration of Zemo; they may be willing to do terrible things, but are their goals actually wrong?

  3. #11703
    Zemo did say that Sokovia had been subsumed by other countries after the Ultron incident, what if one of those land grabs was Latveria.

    "Would you please let me join your p-p-party?

  4. #11704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pvt Hudson View Post
    Zemo did say that Sokovia had been subsumed by other countries after the Ultron incident, what if one of those land grabs was Latveria.
    I've been saying almost since Age of Ultron came out that the ruins of Sokovia make for a pretty perfect baseline for Latveria's emergence, either by Latveria taking it over, or Sokovia coming under new rule and changing its name.

    Not only is there an obvious power gap there, but it fits the Eastern-European note it needs to, and you've got plenty remains of Ultron's robots and such in the area that could have been snatched up by an emergent Doom for research, to form the basis of his Doombots and other technological advancements.

    They've set the groundwork and it's a REALLY small leap to introducing Doom and Latveria with every connection you need to make already established in the canon.

  5. #11705
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post

    That's what makes him a great villain. He's right up there with Magneto and at least the MCU iteration of Zemo; they may be willing to do terrible things, but are their goals actually wrong?
    By the same logic, MCU Thanos had noble goals as well. Sure, he killed half the universe...but only so the remaining half could eventually thrive.

  6. #11706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    By the same logic, MCU Thanos had noble goals as well. Sure, he killed half the universe...but only so the remaining half could eventually thrive.
    He had understandable goals. But obviously, if you or those you care about are among those Snapped, you're gonna have an issue with it, even ignoring the long-term irrelevance.

    Doom's Latveria is a really nice place to live, for Latverians who are eager and willing subjects. If you don't try and buck Doom's control, you live a safe, comfortable, successful, protected lifestyle. All Doom asks is that you subject yourself to Doom's reign. Latveria's kind of comparable to Wakanda in a lot of ways; it has better education, economic returns, safety and security for citizens, and a world presence far out of scale with its geographic size; in the comics, Latveria's considered a world superpower competitive with the USA, for instance.

    Doom's control isn't predicated on any bigotries or prejudices, either. He's pretty open-minded, as long as you accept Doom as your rightful monarch, so the usual petty brutalities of most dictatorships don't exist. Or rather, are limited just to those who try and oppose Doom's regime.

  7. #11707
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    He had understandable goals. But obviously, if you or those you care about are among those Snapped, you're gonna have an issue with it, even ignoring the long-term irrelevance.
    The same applies for Doom though. If he felt half the people of Latveria had to die to save the other half...he would make that choice without question. Thanos at least would make the deaths random. Doom would show a preference for those that showed fealty to him. I mean, one just has to look at marvels most recent Secret Wars to see what would happen if Doom became a god. Or even just the original Secret Wars. MCU Thanos used the Gauntlet twice. The First time was to destroy half the life in the universe. The Second was to destroy the Stones. Doom would never willingly relinquish that power.

    Doom's Latveria is a really nice place to live, for Latverians who are eager and willing subjects. If you don't try and buck Doom's control, you live a safe, comfortable, successful, protected lifestyle. All Doom asks is that you subject yourself to Doom's reign. Latveria's kind of comparable to Wakanda in a lot of ways; it has better education, economic returns, safety and security for citizens, and a world presence far out of scale with its geographic size; in the comics, Latveria's considered a world superpower competitive with the USA, for instance.
    No freedom though. You submit to Doom or you die. Wakanda at least allows for a fair challenge to the throne. Each tribe has a voice. In Latveria, the only authority is Doom.

    Doom's control isn't predicated on any bigotries or prejudices, either. He's pretty open-minded, as long as you accept Doom as your rightful monarch, so the usual petty brutalities of most dictatorships don't exist. Or rather, are limited just to those who try and oppose Doom's regime.
    Sure, Doom is an equal opportunity tyrant...but he's still a tyrant.
    Last edited by Egomaniac; 2021-05-08 at 10:44 PM.

  8. #11708
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Doom basically embodies the question; is an absolutely brutal and ruthless dictator, who nevertheless holds the welfare of his people as his mission, a better or worse option than freedom and liberty and the risks inherent within?

    What he's willing to do in pursuit of his goals is absolutely "evil" by any definition. But his goals are . . . complicated. He seeks to subjugate, but not really for personal glorification, but because Doom really does know better, and everyone'll be better off if he gets to run the show.

    That's what makes him a great villain. He's right up there with Magneto and at least the MCU iteration of Zemo; they may be willing to do terrible things, but are their goals actually wrong?
    That's a somewhat subjective pov imo. For instance, would you rather live in Latveria if you were a human in the Marvel universe or somewhere else? I think it could be stated that Doom is a competent leader who is obviously extremely intelligent but how that actually translates into being a citizen of his country is hard to say, more so as opposed to being a citizen in any other country in the world. I think it's a subjective thing.

  9. #11709
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    He had understandable goals. But obviously, if you or those you care about are among those Snapped, you're gonna have an issue with it, even ignoring the long-term irrelevance.

    Doom's Latveria is a really nice place to live, for Latverians who are eager and willing subjects. If you don't try and buck Doom's control, you live a safe, comfortable, successful, protected lifestyle. All Doom asks is that you subject yourself to Doom's reign. Latveria's kind of comparable to Wakanda in a lot of ways; it has better education, economic returns, safety and security for citizens, and a world presence far out of scale with its geographic size; in the comics, Latveria's considered a world superpower competitive with the USA, for instance.

    Doom's control isn't predicated on any bigotries or prejudices, either. He's pretty open-minded, as long as you accept Doom as your rightful monarch, so the usual petty brutalities of most dictatorships don't exist. Or rather, are limited just to those who try and oppose Doom's regime.
    Look, I get it, it's just fiction. But if the MCU tried to show a merciful, intelligent, goodwilled tyrant with -any- redeeming qualities or goals, people would immediately draw parallels to real life countries, and accuse Disney/Marvel of whitewashing historical or current dictatorships.

    It's something comics can get away with, but movies can't.

    Thanos was an eco-terrorist alien with ridiculous goals and whose actions caused harm on a cosmic scale. And he was already pushing it.

    You simply can't have a sympathetic human villain doing the kind of things you describe. At best, they'll do another Loki/Zemo, a likeable criminal with a moral code. Maybe the leader of some Flag-Smashers-like group in Latveria. Or, he'll be an actual tyrant, but your average batshit crazy mass murderer who gets killed in one movie.

  10. #11710
    Doom is sometimes in a story about a him with bad guys that say they want to rule the world, most of which actually want to destroy it. And when their real agenda becomes revealed it's "Vader Syndrome."

  11. #11711
    If the person who leaked Infinity War, Endgame and Spider-Man: FFH is to be believed, then the next "over-arching" villain is supposed to be Norman Osborn.


    Personally... I hope not.

  12. #11712
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    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    If the person who leaked Infinity War, Endgame and Spider-Man: FFH is to be believed, then the next "over-arching" villain is supposed to be Norman Osborn.


    Personally... I hope not.
    He's . . . just a guy. Give Sam super-soldier serum and pumpkin bombs, and there you have it; Norman Osborn as the Green Goblin and his entire power set. He only poses a significant issue for Peter Parker because of the personal relationships involved mucking everything up.

    I'd be hard-pressed to figure out why Hawkeye doesn't just put an arrow in his skull some evening, if they decide he's an Avengers-level threat.

  13. #11713
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    He's . . . just a guy. Give Sam super-soldier serum and pumpkin bombs, and there you have it; Norman Osborn as the Green Goblin and his entire power set. He only poses a significant issue for Peter Parker because of the personal relationships involved mucking everything up.

    I'd be hard-pressed to figure out why Hawkeye doesn't just put an arrow in his skull some evening, if they decide he's an Avengers-level threat.

    As I've been typing this up I've been trying to find the link I saved a couple years ago where this leak comes from. It was originally on Reddit (lo and behold, has been deleted) but it was posted on other sites I frequent. Going to keep trying to find it and post it here.


    If memory serves, Osborn was going to be presented as a threat more-so based on his intelligence, money/power/influence, and a "catalyst to bring together the other big villains" which reads to me as a Sinister Six or Dark Avengers. But I also think that presents an issue with too many cooks in the kitchen on the big screen.


    But yeah if he was ever found out, it wouldn't take much for him to be dealt with almost immediately. That's why I hope this leak about him is not true. I'd much rather a Dr. Doom or some other actually-powerful villain.


    Unless the MCU does away with the whole concept of an over-arching villain in the background across many films altogether.

  14. #11714
    I stopped reading comics in the early 2000's but it was my understanding they made Norman Osborn into a Lex Luthor style villian. Super Genius, Wealthy and String Puller and turned him from a Spidey villian to an Avengers villian.

    It actually sounds like a good change

  15. #11715
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    He's . . . just a guy.
    meh. Iron Man was just some b-list hero no one really cared about before the MCU kicked off. If they want to turn Osborn from the cackling crazy dude on a flying skateboard into something more Lex Luthor like, that sounds reasonable to me. Maybe set up some sort of nega-Avengers group (I'm sure it's been done before) with him as either the Nick Fury or Tony Stark of the operation.

    Whatever they do is going to be hard to top the "epic" of Endgame and everything that lead up to it. So they may as well not bother going down that route, and do something different instead. Assuming this is anything more than just a rumor to begin with.

  16. #11716
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    meh. Iron Man was just some b-list hero no one really cared about before the MCU kicked off.
    That describes all of the them.

  17. #11717
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    meh. Iron Man was just some b-list hero no one really cared about before the MCU kicked off. If they want to turn Osborn from the cackling crazy dude on a flying skateboard into something more Lex Luthor like, that sounds reasonable to me. Maybe set up some sort of nega-Avengers group (I'm sure it's been done before) with him as either the Nick Fury or Tony Stark of the operation.

    Whatever they do is going to be hard to top the "epic" of Endgame and everything that lead up to it. So they may as well not bother going down that route, and do something different instead. Assuming this is anything more than just a rumor to begin with.
    What I mean is, with Thanos, he wasn't a problem any one Avenger could solve. There needed to be big team-ups.

    Norman Osborn? He's literally just a guy. You could shoot him in the head if he's not in costume (I think the green goblin getup is armored?) Same for Tony, sure, but Osborn isn't up to Tony Stark's caliber. Nor Banners, nor Suri's, to stick to tech heads that are still around. Spider-man by himself has been enough in most cases to take down Norman, or even the full Sinister Six. I just don't see that Osborn scales up, and it's hard for him to "mean" much to anyone but Peter. He also doesn't tie in to the mystical world at all, when they're going to be making Wanda and Strange a bigger factor in the next chunk, apparently.

    Doom is much different. Consistently wins even against the Avengers united, or at least escapes to try again. Ties in to the scientific and magical worlds. Global threat, as he controls a world superpower whose military might can stand up to the USA's toe-to-toe. And so on. If you want an overarching big bad, you need something of that scale. Doom's just the easiest Earth-focused one that I can think of; most of the rest are cosmic in some sense, like Galactus. Or are likely not showing up because of ties to X-men, like Magneto. There's probably some lesser-rans that Marvel could pump up, too, it just feels weird to see Norman Osborn even as a possibility. Frankly, Justin Hammer would make more sense, as he's at least already been introduced.

    Other options I'd rank WAY ahead of Osborn, off the top of my head;
    Mephisto
    Galactus (but likely would feel too samey with Thanos)
    The Kree, in a "world invasion" sense, along with the Supreme Intelligence, as at least that's already introduced in Captain Marvel.
    And, of course, Doom.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-05-09 at 07:40 PM.

  18. #11718
    Doesn't Dark Reign follow from the fallout of Secret Invasion? Osborn was a major threat in that.

  19. #11719
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    What I mean is, with Thanos, he wasn't a problem any one Avenger could solve. There needed to be big team-ups.

    Norman Osborn? He's literally just a guy. You could shoot him in the head if he's not in costume (I think the green goblin getup is armored?) Same for Tony, sure, but Osborn isn't up to Tony Stark's caliber. Nor Banners, nor Suri's, to stick to tech heads that are still around. Spider-man by himself has been enough in most cases to take down Norman, or even the full Sinister Six. I just don't see that Osborn scales up, and it's hard for him to "mean" much to anyone but Peter. He also doesn't tie in to the mystical world at all, when they're going to be making Wanda and Strange a bigger factor in the next chunk, apparently.

    Doom is much different. Consistently wins even against the Avengers united, or at least escapes to try again. Ties in to the scientific and magical worlds. Global threat, as he controls a world superpower whose military might can stand up to the USA's toe-to-toe. And so on. If you want an overarching big bad, you need something of that scale. Doom's just the easiest Earth-focused one that I can think of; most of the rest are cosmic in some sense, like Galactus. Or are likely not showing up because of ties to X-men, like Magneto. There's probably some lesser-rans that Marvel could pump up, too, it just feels weird to see Norman Osborn even as a possibility. Frankly, Justin Hammer would make more sense, as he's at least already been introduced.

    Other options I'd rank WAY ahead of Osborn, off the top of my head;
    Mephisto
    Galactus (but likely would feel too samey with Thanos)
    The Kree, in a "world invasion" sense, along with the Supreme Intelligence, as at least that's already introduced in Captain Marvel.
    And, of course, Doom.
    I get what you are saying and I would much rather Doom but I think you are underselling how they made Norman Osborn way more then the green goblin in the past 10 years.
    He was in Charge of SHIELD for a good while also heading up the Dark Avengers and Thunderbolts as the Iron Patriot (cap and ironman combined). He literally headed a team that had Dr Doom, Namor, Loki and other villians as his underlings.

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  20. #11720
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Norman Osborn? He's literally just a guy. You could shoot him in the head if he's not in costume (I think the green goblin getup is armored?).
    This is a world with stuff like Extremis, vibranium, and nanotechnology that's basically magic...as well as literal magic. There's nothing stopping them writing a story where you can't just shoot a villain like that in the head.

    Osborn wouldn’t be my first choice either, but “he’s just a guy” isn’t really a valid reason anymore.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2021-05-09 at 09:03 PM.

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