1. #11901
    Something just occured to me while watching a video about Hawkeye.
    In the musical Antman is in the battle of New York and as we all know, he wasn't... at least not originally in 2012. But he was actually there if you count Endgame and he may have been seen and recorded. Hawkeye might not know this or at least not count their 'timeheist'.
    I know that this could also just be a nod to the comics where Antman was part of the og line-up if I got that right, but... we have also seen some very accurate statements being made by some people concerning the exact actions and whereabouts of Avengers in the middle of a battle and Valentina even had a picture of Hawkeye in the Ronin suit, apparently right at the moment when he turned around to see Natasha, "Taskmaster" had all kinds of footage to learn from and so on. So maybe the musical is simply being accurate, because Antman was there. ^^

  2. #11902
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They were super clear from the outset that their main inspiration was Matt Fraction's run on Hawkeye in the comics, which was easily one of the best runs I've read in Marvel from the last 20 years; don't know where I'd put it in my top 5, but it's in there.

    It's an amazing run, visually and narratively, and the low stakes are a major selling point for it. They're obviously having to change things up (Kate was already established before Fraction's run), but the run-down Clint Barton just trying to get through another day dealing with low-rent gangster types is hilarious and I love it. I really think the complaints all come from people who haven't read that series and have no idea what the show is going for.

    I want to emphasize that this panel from early in the run (I think) is entirely unaltered; that censoring is exactly how it was printed;



    The whole run is like this. It's Clint being run down and beaten around.

    Yeah, I've never read those comics, but I find the interaction between snoozing(read, I like it) Barton dealing with "everyday life" with Kate who is super eager to be a superhero to be a nice match up. I can see their "dad and daughter" relationship blossoming :P

    It was fun, I enjoyed it. I really dig how Marvel Studios is making these shows, giving some depth to this superhero universe. Or just to everyday family man, Barton aka Hawkeye

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    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    (to me "obnoxious" would mean a 'Home alone' style of Christmas vibe ^^)
    I got that good christmas feeling because some of the music had a clear relation to the Home Alone theme :P

  3. #11903
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Yeah, I've never read those comics, but I find the interaction between snoozing(read, I like it) Barton dealing with "everyday life" with Kate who is super eager to be a superhero to be a nice match up. I can see their "dad and daughter" relationship blossoming :P

    It was fun, I enjoyed it. I really dig how Marvel Studios is making these shows, giving some depth to this superhero universe. Or just to everyday family man, Barton aka Hawkeye

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    I got that good christmas feeling because some of the music had a clear relation to the Home Alone theme :P
    Well yea, it did have a christmas feeling and of course it was everywhere, including in the music. Decorations, Clint saying merry christmas at the pharmacy, family stuff... even the 'charity event' was probably because of christmas, so it is everywhere, but... maybe I felt that way because there was no actual christmas hysteria? Like... people running around shouting, almost getting a nervous breakdown because they are too stressed out, I mean they even hint at a child getting lost in New York (Clint's younger son ) and still no one actually freaks out and starts screaming. If there's stress, it's not about christmas. I guess that's why I liked the christmas vibe in this case^^

  4. #11904
    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    Well yea, it did have a christmas feeling and of course it was everywhere, including in the music. Decorations, Clint saying merry christmas at the pharmacy, family stuff... even the 'charity event' was probably because of christmas, so it is everywhere, but... maybe I felt that way because there was no actual christmas hysteria? Like... people running around shouting, almost getting a nervous breakdown because they are too stressed out, I mean they even hint at a child getting lost in New York (Clint's younger son ) and still no one actually freaks out and starts screaming. If there's stress, it's not about christmas. I guess that's why I liked the christmas vibe in this case^^
    Going into christmas time, I find the overall christmas theme nice for sure. To me the clear signs of christmas isn't the big shopping centres, big trees with decorations etc, but tunes from Home Alone, or watching Die Hard at 1st day of christmas. Small things that wakes up memories or emotions is the true christmas spirit for me, and listening to the music during that one scene gave me some of that

    And maybe this show will give me an extra sparkle this year. Marvel and christmas, what's not to love.

  5. #11905
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Going into christmas time, I find the overall christmas theme nice for sure. To me the clear signs of christmas isn't the big shopping centres, big trees with decorations etc, but tunes from Home Alone, or watching Die Hard at 1st day of christmas. Small things that wakes up memories or emotions is the true christmas spirit for me, and listening to the music during that one scene gave me some of that

    And maybe this show will give me an extra sparkle this year. Marvel and christmas, what's not to love.
    I love Die Hard for christmas too
    And yea, if this show continues with the christmas vibe as it did in the first two episodes, it's going to feature in my personal list of favourite christmas movies and shows in the future.

  6. #11906
    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    So maybe the musical is simply being accurate, because Antman was there. ^^
    Antman wasn't there in this timeline.

  7. #11907
    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    Antman wasn't there in this timeline.
    Him and the others being there was in Kang's script, so yea, they could simply always have been there, there just wasn't a camera on them in the og movie.

  8. #11908
    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    Him and the others being there was in Kang's script, so yea, they could simply always have been there, there just wasn't a camera on them in the og movie.
    This is the timeline where he wasn't there, that was another timeline.

  9. #11909
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Marvel intro with fanfare and I am biased.

    Hawkeye maybe not the most exciting superhero, but Steinfeld do spice things up so it matches well. Laughed quite a few times during the two first episodes, fun stuff.

    And the Tracksuit mafia, whats not to love.
    gotta be comfy when you do crime!

  10. #11910
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    i like when they put non-super humans against other non-super humans, so im digging this, gladly the comedy isn't over the top, but i must say that musical was so stupid, i knot it was on purpose but oh my god they forced to be cringe.

    Hopes high that everything leads to Kingpin with the netflix actor, chances are pretty good

  11. #11911
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Just like there was no camera on Kate, yet she was there. Hell, they basically tell us they were always there in Loki when he whines about their time travel.
    Exactly. No alternate timeline was created by the Avengers being there was kind of the point of that scene in the TVA court.

  12. #11912
    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    Exactly. No alternate timeline was created by the Avengers being there was kind of the point of that scene in the TVA court.
    They explicitly state that the time travel in Endgame is operating on multiverse theory. Think about how time travel worked in Dragon Ball Z or X-Men the Animated series.

  13. #11913
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    They explicitly state that the time travel in Endgame is operating on multiverse theory. Think about how time travel worked in Dragon Ball Z or X-Men the Animated series.
    The time travel in the Avengers is within a single "universe".

    That time travel had potential to create branches, but returning the Stones after mostly prevented that (and the few exceptions, like the Loki variant we followed in the Loki show, had their branches pruned and thus aren't from any extant universe).

    Travel between universes is a separate thing from time travel in Marvel. You can do both, but time travel doesn't mean you're changing universes, and we know, canonically, that the time travel in Endgame does not cross to any other universe/timeline.

    As a simple explanation; at the "time" that time travel occurred, the TVA still existed and was actively pruning off any timeline branches but the "main Kang" timeline. That's why Loki got pruned. The events bringing about the Multiverse didn't happen until after Endgame's time travel, and we have a TVA agent explicitly tell us that the Endgame time travel didn't violate their "one timeline" rules.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-11-26 at 09:10 PM.


  14. #11914
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The time travel in the Avengers is within a single "universe".

    That time travel had potential to create branches, but returning the Stones after mostly prevented that (and the few exceptions, like the Loki variant we followed in the Loki show, had their branches pruned and thus aren't from any extant universe).

    Travel between universes is a separate thing from time travel in Marvel. You can do both, but time travel doesn't mean you're changing universes, and we know, canonically, that the time travel in Endgame does not cross to any other universe/timeline.

    As a simple explanation; at the "time" that time travel occurred, the TVA still existed and was actively pruning off any timeline branches but the "main Kang" timeline. That's why Loki got pruned. The events bringing about the Multiverse didn't happen until after Endgame's time travel, and we have a TVA agent explicitly tell us that the Endgame time travel didn't violate their "one timeline" rules.
    That all falls apart because Thanos left his timeline to come to the main MCU Timeline and did not return, yet it did not change the current timeline. Even the only hole in multiverse theory in Endgame, Captain America waiting on the bench was explained by the Russos as him coming back to the main timeline at a different spot and time. If you took away from the TVA scene that the 'TVA agent explicitly tell us that the Endgame time travel didn't violate their "one timeline" rules. ' then you misread the scene entirely.

  15. #11915
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    That all falls apart because Thanos left his timeline to come to the main MCU Timeline and did not return, yet it did not change the current timeline.
    Thanos didn't jump universes. It's Thanos from the past of that same universe. There is no "leaving his timeline to come to a different timeline; he's from a different point on the same timeline.

    Even the only hole in multiverse theory in Endgame, Captain America waiting on the bench was explained by the Russos as him coming back to the main timeline at a different spot and time.
    I really don't care what the directors think. I care what the writers think, and how it fits with the rest of the canon. The directors are just wrong; Steve Rogers didn't go to a different timeline. That may have been uncertain before Loki, but it's clear after Loki.

    If you took away from the TVA scene that the 'TVA agent explicitly tell us that the Endgame time travel didn't violate their "one timeline" rules. ' then you misread the scene entirely.
    There was one Sacred Timeline, and no other timelines. That's an established fact, as of the Loki TV show. That's different after the events of that show, but covers everything that went beforehand in the MCU.

    The time travel in Endgame did not deviate anything away from that Sacred Timeline, nor did Steve staying behind in the past. That's all part of the Sacred Timeline.


    Edit: Also, before you ask "how can Thanos die twice if there's only one Thanos", welcome to recursion. There's a brief split in the timeline but both branches dive back in to the Sacred Timeline, and don't qualify as separate timelines proper. It's only a "branch" if the events lead to a divergence. This particular split doesn't, as both are critical and necessary points in the same timeline. Timelines aren't single unchanging paths, not when time travel exists.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-11-26 at 09:30 PM.


  16. #11916
    Regarding Thanos;


  17. #11917
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Thanos didn't jump universes. It's Thanos from the past of that same universe. There is no "leaving his timeline to come to a different timeline; he's from a different point on the same timeline.
    Thanos leaving the past and going to the future, even from the same universe, would cause a branch in the timeline in the point of the past that he left.

    by their own rules, at least is how i understand things.
    I really don't care what the directors think. I care what the writers think, and how it fits with the rest of the canon. The directors are just wrong; Steve Rogers didn't go to a different timeline. That may have been uncertain before Loki, but it's clear after Loki.
    even going to the past of the same timeline would ultimately create a branch and a new timeline, just like any other, because the events would be different from what happened...

    unless they pruned those timelines after thanos left and let Steven live a long life then prune after he back

  18. #11918
    Hawkeye is fine for being a transitional show, they are obviously replacing the old guard for the next phase. My real issues are that it seems like they are setting Clint up to be offed in the series and he and Widow only got a show in order to replace them

  19. #11919
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Thanos leaving the past and going to the future, even from the same universe, would cause a branch in the timeline in the point of the past that he left.

    by their own rules, at least is how i understand things.
    It can't, because the branch it creates is the Sacred Timeline. And the older timeline ends at that moment, so there's no "second" timeline.

    Picture a tree, with a single major branch grafted in from where it grew lower on the tree, and the old trunk above that grafted branch cut off. It's still just one tree. One single path of growth from roots to highest point.

    Some of you seem to be operating under the idea that the Sacred Timeline is a natural flow: we know that isn't the case, it's highly artificial.

    even going to the past of the same timeline would ultimately create a branch and a new timeline, just like any other, because the events would be different from what happened...
    That doesn't follow, at all.

    Picture a river that splits, and then rejoins. Still one river.


  20. #11920
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Or all those things were inherent to the sacred timeline and therefor didn’t create a branch. As per the TVA.
    Like, people forget the Sacred Timeline iswas aggressively pruned.

    The future that would've existed without Thanos time-traveling forward does not exist. The Sacred Timeline always brought about that time-travel event that always created the post-Endgame future. The "natural" future is the branch that was pruned.

    That's what the Loki show established; that everything that happened did so due to TVA meddling, to bring about that precise conclusion, and no other branches exist. That's the canon. Everything has to be interpreted with that in mind, and if you draw conclusions that go against that, your reasoning is flawed somewhere.

    Not because "my reasoning is better" or something, but because the TVA stuff establishes that as a statement of canon fact, overtly. You'd have to argue that your headcanon is "more canon" than the actual canon, which isn't how things work. It doesn't matter if you think it's silly or really confusing or definitely not the simplest answer or option; that's what it is, and every explanation has to reflect that.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-11-27 at 01:16 AM. Reason: Struck out "is" for "was", since that only describes the status quo until the end of the Loki show


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