[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Lanrefni]

I feel that's more about how jaw-droppingly powerful Peter Parker actually is, and that he's basically holding back all the time.

Part of the point of Spider-Man is he technically has the capacity to straight-up murder any of his usual opponents. He's way stronger than them, and way faster. His stories far more often revolve around him trying to save them from themselves; trying to stop whatever plot they're hatching because he's worried they'll go too far and will lose any chance for redemption. It's why so many of his villains have a direct personal connection; Doc Oc, the Lizard, the Goblins, etc.

I can't recall if that sequence is from the Superior Spider-Man series where Octavius inserts his own personality into Parker's head, taking control of him, but that's another series that really lays out exactly how self-limiting Peter Parker's always been, starting with Octavius realizing how many times Parker could have easily killed him and chose​ not to.

Iirc it was when Octavius first fought Rhino in Parkers body and he took Rhinos lower jaw off with one punch.

[Endus]

The storyline I referenced is from the original Civil War, where Iron Man had convinced Peter to reveal his identity and the consequences that followed. Such as, Kingpin putting hits out on Peter's loved ones, which had always been Peter's fear. The point of the sequence is that Kingpin's power resides primarily in his contacts, criminal expertise, and general force of presence ... and not in his physical prowess, which is only intimidating to normal criminals and people.

He ripped off a car door.

Steve Rogers threw a whole motorcycle at people, and Steve wasn't a powerhouse on the Avengers team. If Kingpin went up against Thor, he'd get wrecked (physically). In this show, he only really confronts Kate and her mom in any real way, both of whom (like Clint) qualify as "normal people".

[Syegfryed]

Your head canon is still just a you thing. Likewise with that author. Vincent has told us repeatedly it’s the same person, not some new variant.

Your headcanon is still just you thing. Vincent has told us repeatedly tht his character in hawkeye is stronger and there are dots from the netflix they can't connect, thus making him a variant in marvel terms.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I feel that's more about how jaw-droppingly powerful Peter Parker actually is, and that he's basically holding back all the time.

While on the topic of Peter compare to the king pin there’s also how daredevil sees him which is a great little scene and really puts Peter into perspective when even some one who fights silent ninjas barely notices him.

[Egomaniac]

Iirc it was when Octavius first fought Rhino in Parkers body and he took Rhinos lower jaw off with one punch.

It was Scorpion, but yeah...punched his jaw right off his face.

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The storyline I referenced is from the original Civil War, where Iron Man had convinced Peter to reveal his identity and the consequences that followed. Such as, Kingpin putting hits out on Peter's loved ones, which had always been Peter's fear. The point of the sequence is that Kingpin's power resides primarily in his contacts, criminal expertise, and general force of presence ... and not in his physical prowess, which is only intimidating to normal criminals and people.

Not quite. Kingpin, in the comics, is obscenely strong. Probably the strongest so-called "normal" human in the marvel universe. He looks like a tubby-tubs... but he's solid muscle. His body fat % is only about 2%. He's also an extremely skilled hand to hand combatant.

The point of that sequence you are referring to is that none of that matters. No unenhanced human, no matter how strong or how skilled, stands a chance against Spider-Man when he means business. At any point in that contest, Peter could have killed Fisk easily... and he wanted him, and everyone else, to know that. He wanted them all to see him completely humiliate the guy they are all afraid of. To know that, if he can do that to Kingpin...he can do it to anyone.

He was showcasing the difference between Spider-Man and Peter Parker. He wanted to show them all that when Spider-Man is after you...you'll get knocked around and webbed up...but you'll survive. Spider-Man plays by the rules. But if you go after his family...you aren't dealing with Spider-Man anymore. You're dealing with Peter Parker. And that's a different ballgame.

[Egomaniac]

I reject this idea entirely. Spider-Man is Peter Parker. It's Parker's ethics that rule his actions as Spider-Man, as evidenced by when Ock controlled his body and showed what Spider-Man removed from Peter's principles could do. It wasn't Spider-Man that mourned Uncle Ben and resolved to accept responsibility, it was Peter. The idea that Peter is more likely to intentionally physically hurt someone than his Spider-Man persona is, to me, preposterous.

Then you didn't read the comic very well













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I should also mention that we're arguing comics where power levels only matter insofar as what the current writer needs various characters to be capable of, so, you could say we're all right and also we're all wrong and we will be both, again, in the future

So if you guys want Kingpin to be super-duper badass physically, go for it. It doesn't harm my enjoyment or interpretation of the stories at all.

Sure, It's like Stan Lee always used to say when people asked him who would win in a fight...whoever the writer wants to win.

But, Kingpin has consistently been portrayed as being, as you put it, super-duper badass physically. Ge's strong, he's fast, and he's incredibly skilled. Against any un-enhanced human.... Kingpin is a serious threat.

[Endus]

I have not watched Hawkeye yet so I can't really comment on what happens, but I absolutely disagree with the assertion that Clint Barton is "normal people". I don't know how the others compare in their level of training, but any SHIELD agent who is sent into violent situations would, IMO, would not be impressed nor intimidated by Kingpin's physical abilities. Sure, if he gets Hawkeye in a bearhug he might be in trouble, but realistically Clint could take out Kingpin fairly handily if he wanted. Kingpin is, as Peter said, a fat man with an attitude.

In a 1v1 fistfight? Unlikely. It would be a hard fight, at a minimum.

Clint is a "normal human" in that he's not enhanced: it's just skill and training. Same for Fisk.

If he went up against Steve he'd get wrecked, as well. Steve's strength and physical abilities are all heightened by the Super-Soldier Serum, Plus he has decades of actual war and various other combat experiences. Kingpin is NOT a fighter. When Kingpin fights, it's because he's already losing or he has someone at his mercy through other means and wants to hurt them.

Kingpin is absolutely a fighter: in the comics, he's a recognized master in multiple martial arts, over and above his peak human strength (the same as Steve Rogers gets with the Serum). Kingpin's biggest threat any his combat abilities, but he's no slouch there at all: he's one of the most dangerous unenhanced humans alive, in that capacity.

Speaking of Earth-616 at least, since the MCU doesn't quantify things whereas 616 has done so for decades.

[QuoteI reject this idea entirely. Spider-Man is Peter Parker. It's Parker's ethics that rule his actions as Spider-Man, as evidenced by when Ock controlled his body and showed what Spider-Man removed from Peter's principles could do. It wasn't Spider-Man that mourned Uncle Ben and resolved to accept responsibility, it was Peter. The idea that Peter is more likely to intentionally physically hurt someone than his Spider-Man persona is, to me, preposterous.[/quote]

Fun fact: Uncle Ben is not particularly important to Spider-Man, thematically. He barely figures in the original comics, and is not the origin of the "with great power" mantra. Original Peter was a pretty enormous jerk for quite a while, in his original run. People weirdly think the Raimi films are the original story, or something.

[Syegfryed]

In one of the what if? when Peter becames venom, he start a killing spree in all villains, he almost killed fisk with one single punch, but the motherfucker lived

Not quite. Kingpin, in the comics, is obscenely strong. Probably the strongest so-called "normal" human in the marvel universe. He looks like a tubby-tubs... but he's solid muscle. His body fat % is only about 2%. He's also an extremely skilled hand to hand combatant.

Kingpin is also capable of going toe-to-toe with Captain america, someone who was enhanced,

No way in hell can people say he is just "a normal human" wih a straight face, no normal human ahve only 2% of his body being fat and the rest muscle

[Endus]

Kingpin is also capable of going toe-to-toe with Captain america, someone who was enhanced,

I'm gonna stick with Earth-616 comic representations, because we have concrete figures there;

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Steve...th-616)#Powers
"Peak Human Strength: Rogers' physical strength is enhanced to the very peak of human potential, making him consistently able to sustain lifts 800 lbs (363 kg),[7] and bench pressing 1,100 pounds (500 kg) as a warm-up.[197]"

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Wilso..._and_Abilities
"Peak Human Strength: Fisk is composed almost entirely of muscle that has been developed to enormous size, much like a sumo wrestler, and he possesses peak human strength with only the bare 9 pounds actually being fat. His vast bulk shields him from many forms of injury, either providing padding or causing penetration wounds to only strike him relatively superficially."

They have the same Strength rating in the Power Grid, and Steve's fighting skills rate 6 to Kingpin's 5.

No way in hell can people say he is just "a normal human" wih a straight face, no normal human ahve only 2% of his body being fat and the rest muscle

You're confusing "normal human" meaning "unenhanced and not possessing any magical, mutative, or otherwise exceptional powers", and "average human", which isn't what anyone was arguing.

Fisk is absolutely exceptional for a human being, but he isn't an enhanced human. And Steve, while technically "enhanced", was only enhanced to the point of peak human potential, so he's right at a similar cusp, but Fisk came by his strength by natural genetics and hard training.

Kingpin's not a mutant and has no superpowers or special enhancements of any kind whatsoever. It's just natural talent, some technology in his suits for resilience, and decades of training in combat arts and fitness.

[Clone]

Was it ever explained how Hawkeye lost his hearing?

[Egomaniac]

Was it ever explained how Hawkeye lost his hearing?

All the explosions.

[Syegfryed]

Kingpin's not a mutant and has no superpowers or special enhancements of any kind whatsoever. It's just natural talent, some technology in his suits for resilience, and decades of training in combat arts and fitness.

you said a lot of words to say he is not, just a normal human.

He is not a mutant, like the x-man, but his body is noway near close to normal, normal humans are not made of muscles.

[Endus]

you said a lot of words to say he is not, just a normal human.

He is not a mutant, like the x-man, but his body is noway near close to normal, normal humans are not made of muscles.

No, I'm making the point that "normal human" means a specific thing in Marvel terms when ranking power scales and classifying heroes and villains and their capacities.

If you prefer, "peak human strength", which puts him in the same class as Steve Rogers.

He's not average, in the same way that a top gymast or dancer would be off the scales for dexterity and balance, but he's not superhuman in any way whatsoever.

[qwerty123456]

Remember the storyline where Kingpin tries to get Aunt May shot after Spider-man had revealed himself to the world? And Peter shows Kingpin exactly how not-powerful Kingpin really is and that Pete has always been way holding back on him? Sorry about the image sizes, but this seems relevant.

I think this actually shows just how much of a mutant Kingpin actually is. Dude's got like cat/dog skin. Why the fuck they draw it like that lol.

[Egomaniac]

you said a lot of words to say he is not, just a normal human.

He is not a mutant, like the x-man, but his body is noway near close to normal, normal humans are not made of muscles.

He is not a human with any special enhancements, mutations, or anything of the sort. His physical stats were obtained solely through his own physical effort.

In the real world...he would certainly be superhuman...but in the comics he is "peak human". He's a normal human in the same way Batman is a normal human.

[Syegfryed]

He is not a human with any special enhancements, mutations, or anything of the sort. His physical stats were obtained solely through his own physical effort.

having only 2% of his body being fat, while the rest being muscle, is not just "peak human".

Like someone who happen to grow another hand, another limb, you know, a genetic mutation.

[PrimiOne]

having only 2% of his body being fat, while the rest being muscle, is not just "peak human".

Like someone who happen to grow another hand, another limb, you know, a genetic mutation.

Disturbing I know: 2% body fat.

They key to tell apart human and superhuman in the Marvel universe is : breaking the laws of nature. Simple as that...read the super from superhuman as supernatural ( outside natural law) not "above men".

Hawkeye is in the top of a building. Jumps down. While falling head down shoots 3 simultaneous arrows to 3 moving targets ( at > 300 km/h). Hits everyone. Shoots a cable arrow , swings safely to the ground .... and smile.

No - fucking - one - does - that. Ever. Even if we are talking an olympic level athlete and archer ( both) and we accept the cable is elastic ( so absorbs kinetic energy and reduces the speed of the ground contact) we are talking about...1 in 1000 attempts? And being generous.

Elektra and his two sais enters a warehouse that is full of 100 henchmen with machine guns. We all know who goes out and who don't.

No one does that. Again.

But the key here is that those scenarios do not break any kind of scientific law...there is no physics law broke. Even if seeing as an incredible stroke luck we can explain what happened in scientific terms.

Shooting lazers out of your eyes? Yeah...we do not know any kind of phisiology that does that.
Lifting 10 tons? Yeah....for starters..is Spiderman bone structure made of osteocytes? Because calcium has its limits.
Reading minds?
Flying?

It's simple as long as we consider two rules:

1. It is OUR understanding of the laws of nature not theirs ( E616 or Earth Prime now). In the Marvel Universe that cosmic rays modifies your DNA so you can stretch your arms 20 m is not supernatural...it works according THEIR physics and biological laws. It's their Science not ours so when I say supernatural I mean from our perspective.

2. In 6 decades of stories and redesigns of the characters and thousands of narratives and the citius altius fortius mindset and more ,more, MORE!!! there's situations where Marvel has played so much to the limit that has probably crossed a line. You play next to the precipice ...eventually you will fall so the "peak human" concept is one of those definitions that could stir a debate about what are the limits of the human phisiology. Surely not lifting 10 tons ...but ...running 13 miles in 30 min? Running at 40 mph? (world record is 28).

Edit: BTW I'm totally NOT the one that is gonna have that peak human debate. I - Don't - Care.

[Syegfryed]

Disturbing I know: 2% body fat.

and its disturbing that people have more than one finger, limbs or other things.

Btw, the case isn't the same, kingpin is gigantic, its only possible, as far im aware, have 3 to 10%, anything lower than that is a risk to your life, and kingpin does not have this risk, he works as normal.

Plus, This dude in your pic, cannot tank a car crash or, an bomb explosion, point still stand.

[PrimiOne]

and its disturbing that people have more than one finger, limbs or other things.

Btw, the case isn't the same, kingpin is gigantic, its only possible, as far im aware, have 3 to 10%, anything lower than that is a risk to your life, and kingpin does not have this risk, he works as normal.

Plus, This dude in your pic, cannot tank a car crash or, an bomb explosion, point still stand.

The WHO reccomendation is 10-15% but we are not talking about healthy.

Look for Ronnie Coleman ( several times Mr Olympia Champion) : 4% body fat on competition and simply HUGE.

The thing us...you are missing the point: you are talking about extraordinary and I'm telling you that extraordinary DOES NOT imply breaking the biological laws that we know....that DOES NOT imply supernatural and as I already said ( I hate to repeat myself) if you play in the border you will eventually cross it.
Stopping a car at 100 km/h? Yeah you can say that's supernatural.....2% body fat and huge: totally not.

But given that you have had this discussion with basically every-single-poster in this thread I'm gonna do what most people should have done pages ago: you do you...I ..will do other things

[Shadowferal]

Hawkeye is in the top of a building. Jumps down. While falling head down shoots 3 simultaneous arrows to 3 moving targets ( at > 300 km/h). Hits everyone. Shoots a cable arrow , swings safely to the ground .... and smile.

Funny thing...just recently looking through the "Art of Repetition" (archery) and in the background a video of some professional archer was grading Hollywood on some of the representation. Hawkeye and Kate were like a "5" (dude definitely didn't like adding weight to the tip...) Katniss from "Hunger Games" got a "7" and was noted for the coaching Lawrence received from a pro Olympic archer. The only "10" was from the animated "Brave." Apparently someone did a good deal of homework animating the precise actions and the movements working including the snakey way the arrow should move.