[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Triceron]

I'm sure the story about a Chinese superhero starring a Chinese-Canadian actor and revolving heavily around Chinese-inspired mythologies won't do well in China.

Yep, it might not. As someone who is Chinese Canadian and talking to my wife who is a Chinese citizen, there is a lot of disinterest and controversy around this film being regarded by the Chinese audience.

I mean, I see the concerns too, even if it doesn't personally affect me. I understand enough about Chinese cinema and culture to see this movie is somewhat tonedeaf and has certain undertones that don't fly well overseas.

Of course, its not as bad as Mulan.

[Jotaux]

she doesnt get anything from the d+ sales thats why shes suing, her contract was based off ticket sale benchmarks so all of the money from d+ goes straight to the mouse not her

Thats not true. She's not suing over the premium to watch BW because she's already getting a cut of that. She's suing over D+ subscriptions.

[DingDongKing]

I’ll disagree on one point. The finale of FFH had some of the most outstanding Spidey fighting I’ve seen in a live-action film.

Tbh I tuned out by that point. I'm not massive on fight scenes. I'm a lore whore, so it's all about story and character for me.

Them two films didn't do much for me in that regard. And again, that's just me.

[Bodakane]

Well, we'll see when Shang Chi 2 comes out. That's gonna be a thing, right?

If the movie makes money, it will.

It feels like you’re arguing from standpoint that has nothing actually to do with the reality of the MCU, but rather something else entirely and personal.

[Stormcall]

I'm sure the story about a Chinese superhero starring a Chinese-Canadian actor and revolving heavily around Chinese-inspired mythologies won't do well in China.

The trailers have been absolutely SKEWERED by the Chinese, they've called it insulting and say that it appears to be the typical Westerner's stereotyped view of Chinese people and culture, and their state media don't even include it in their release of upcoming movies. That's not really off to a great start as far as massive Chinese box office goes.

[formerShandalay]

The trailers have been absolutely SKEWERED by the Chinese, they've called it insulting and say that it appears to be the typical Westerner's stereotyped view of Chinese people and culture, and their state media don't even include it in their release of upcoming movies. That's not really off to a great start as far as massive Chinese box office goes.

Of course they would. ^^ Simu Liu specifically said it's mainly about, for and by Asians in 'diaspora', which means it's about their clash with the Asian culture. Also, it depicts mysticism and a very Feng Shui kind of it (as far as I could see so far), which usually is not looked upon very kindly by the Chinese mainland (at least the politicians, don't know about the people).


I watched the Red Carpet event last night and I was a little bummed that Tony Leung and Michelle Yeoh weren't even mentioned in the interviews, much less actually on the carpet (that might be difficult because of the travelling restrictions around the world). I love thoese two and would have liked to hear their praise sung at least a little too.

[Triceron]

If the movie makes money, it will.

It feels like you’re arguing from standpoint that has nothing actually to do with the reality of the MCU, but rather something else entirely and personal.

I'm pointing out how your answers don't address any of my concerns, because you don't think they exist at all and aren't regarding them.

If I express concern that the movie not doing well may have an effect on the characters use in future material, then saying their movie sequels already share screen space is not something I'd agree with or have ease any of my concerns. Like for fucks sake, you even acknowledge a sequel 'if it makes money, it will'. What the fuck do you think was my original concern?

If it doesn't do well (outlook by the producers/execs, not even factoring box office), it might not even get a sequel.

It's not a MCU thing, it's a movie production and handling thing. I mean look at how the TV series characters were supposed to somehow tie into MCU. And even now certain characters have a chance of coming back, like supposedly Daredevil and Punisher making MCU appearances. But guess who isn't? Iron Fist, who is being brushed under the table (not complaining, just using an example).

It's all tied to the people with creative control, and how they plan to allocate the resources they have at hand. And I have skepticism over Shang Chi, even though I WANT this movie to succeed.

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Also, it depicts mysticism and a very Feng Shui kind of it (as far as I could see so far), which usually is not looked upon very kindly by the Chinese mainland (at least the politicians, don't know about the people).

For the most part, it doesn't bother people, and there's dozens upon dozens of Chinese movies and TV series with mysticism. Wushu is its own subgenre of fantasy, and there's plenty of it. The government doesn't really step in to block any of that if it's just fiction, it's more any type of hidden religious or social commentary they'd start flagging. Basically anything that might conflict with Chinese ideals of practicality and realism; anything that promotes the idea of mysticism is real, or something people should believe is real. If it's treated within the confines of a fictional world, then there's no real problem. And as long as people don't start thinking they can really do Kamehamehas like Goku, then material like Dragonball isn't gonna get flagged or banned. The government is concerned when it comes to how media/entertainment influences the behaviours or mindsets of the people, so the red flags usually come from any media that blurs the line between fantasy and reality rather than having a clear distinction that 'this is just a movie'

[Immitis]

I'm pointing out how your answers don't address any of my concerns, because you don't think they exist at all and aren't regarding them.

If I express concern that the movie not doing well may have an effect on the characters use in future material, then saying their movie sequels already share screen space is not something I'd agree with or have ease any of my concerns. Like for fucks sake, you even acknowledge a sequel 'if it makes money, it will'. What the fuck do you think was my original concern?

If it doesn't do well (outlook by the producers/execs, not even factoring box office), it might not even get a sequel.

It's not a MCU thing, it's a movie production and handling thing. I mean look at how the TV series characters were supposed to somehow tie into MCU. And even now certain characters have a chance of coming back, like supposedly Daredevil and Punisher making MCU appearances. But guess who isn't? Iron Fist, who is being brushed under the table (not complaining, just using an example).

It's all tied to the people with creative control, and how they plan to allocate the resources they have at hand. And I have skepticism over Shang Chi, even though I WANT this movie to succeed.

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For the most part, it doesn't bother people, and there's dozens upon dozens of Chinese movies and TV series with mysticism. Wushu is its own subgenre of fantasy, and there's plenty of it. The government doesn't really step in to block any of that if it's just fiction, it's more any type of hidden religious or social commentary they'd start flagging. Basically anything that might conflict with Chinese ideals of practicality and realism; anything that promotes the idea of mysticism is real, or something people should believe is real. If it's treated within the confines of a fictional world, then there's no real problem. And as long as people don't start thinking they can really do Kamehamehas like Goku, then material like Dragonball isn't gonna get flagged or banned. The government is concerned when it comes to how media/entertainment influences the behaviours or mindsets of the people, so the red flags usually come from any media that blurs the line between fantasy and reality rather than having a clear distinction that 'this is just a movie'

i think you're ignoring a big part of the tv side of marvels inclusion.
ike perlmutter and kevin fiege fucking hate eachother

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you ever think its a little weird fans constantly asked fiege when the "its all connected" bs would actually flow both ways?

it wasnt until he had full control of all of marvel and d+ came out that all of a sudden its feasible to have tv shows not only be connected but INTEGRAL to the storylines of the mcu. wandavision leads directly into dr strange 2, falcon and winter soldier leads directly into captain america 4 and had tv show characters crossover with black widow, loki is pretty much setting up a new avengers villain.

the entire time perlmutter was in control of marvel tv?
inhumans film cancelled, tv show non canonical
agents of shield? no influence non canonical
cloak and dagger?
the runaways?
all of the defender netflix shows?
none of these shows are treated as canonical and have any sort of influence on the mcu at all. the flow is entirely one way
they said constantly "it would be too hard to do that with the way tv shows film" or "we would have to explain who they are first that takes too much time away from the film"
ike perlmutter gets the boot and fiege is in control of the tv division?
suddenly all that rhetoric goes out the window and now we've got characters on tv shows actually influencing the ongoing plotlines

[JDL49]

I'm sure the story about a Chinese superhero starring a Chinese-Canadian actor and revolving heavily around Chinese-inspired mythologies won't do well in China.

1) The Chinese government has already expressed that they are unhappy with the cast. It very unlikely from what I remember reading that the film will ever open there.

2) The lead actor comes off as a hot head and a bit of a douche.

So yeah the film may be in a spot of trouble. Nothing fatal as yet but a death by a thousand cuts is still on the table.

[Egomaniac]

I think it was a disservice to be introducing Shang Chi in his own movie without having seeded anything in any prior media. Disney+ has been seeding new characters left right and center. Black Widow even opens up some tie ins with future characters and teams we might see. But Shang Chi? No one knows or cares who is, and it's gonna be a Captain Marvel situation all over again.
.

No one knew or cared who the Guardians of The Galaxy were before their movie either... Seemed to work out ok.

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I think it was a disservice to be introducing Shang Chi in his own movie without having seeded anything in any prior media. Disney+ has been seeding new characters left right and center. Black Widow even opens up some tie ins with future characters and teams we might see. But Shang Chi? No one knows or cares who is, and it's gonna be a Captain Marvel situation all over again.
.

No one knew or cared who the Guardians of The Galaxy were before their movie either... Seemed to work out ok.

Captain Marvel went $1Billion+ at the Box Office...so I don't think Disney would cry too much if they had another "Captain Marvel situation"

Hell, before the MCU...even Iron Man was a B-List Marvel Character. The only reason the MCU started with him is because Marvel had sold off the film rights to all the more popular characters.

[Triceron]

i think you're ignoring a big part of the tv side of marvels inclusion.
ike perlmutter and kevin fiege fucking hate eachother

The point is about the TV characters coming onto the MCU, except for Iron Fist, which performed poorly and was not well received. I was simply making an example of how they are seemingly brushing Iron Fist under the rug while the others are coming into the MCU.

The Perlmutter/Feige thing has nothing to do with my point, since I'm talking about the MCU under Feige and which properties are being brought in, and which ones seeming are not.

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No one knew or cared who the Guardians of The Galaxy were before their movie either... Seemed to work out ok.

GotG didn't have controversy surrounding it overseas, and did pretty well in China, where the big box office numbers generallly came from.

Shang Chi is being touted as a great movie in initial reviews, and I'm hoping it can carry that energy well into release. But there is a lot if skepticism overseas, and qe still have the whole covid situation that has fans (like myself) still hesitant heading out to theatres.

GotG didn't have any of these challenges in the way, and word of mouth spread fast in its favour. Hopefully same can happen with Shang Chi.

Captain Marvel went $1Billion+ at the Box Office...so I don't think Disney would cry too much if they had another "Captain Marvel situation"

Rise of Skywalker made a billion at box office too.

Doesn't mean it was universally praised as a good movie with characters set up for the future of Star Wars. The actors don't even want anything to do with any further movies or shows.

Captain Marvel _as a character_ had barely any significant role or screentime in End Game. I'm not quite sure what the actually intended for her character when they seemed to hype her up with a whole post credit scene in Infinity War and have her own movie in Captain Marvel, only to have a pretty minor role overall at the beginning and the end of End Game. Granted she's OP as fuck, but as I said, _as a character_ she took a backseat in the series, rather than be a major focal point like we see for many other major characters.

I simply don't want to see that happen to Shang Chi if it so happened to not perform well in the box office, or gets wrapped up in some sort of overseas controversy that makes the character unpopular somehow. And yes, many criticisms are well vocalized over the main character from China, which *can potentially* have an affect on interest and the box office results (beyond Covid concerns).

Perhaps a better character to compare to is Finn from Star Wars, who was not well received as a main character overseas, and it ended up getting less and less scenes written for him in subsequent sequels.

[Egomaniac]

GotG didn't have controversy surrounding it overseas, and did pretty well in China, where the big box office numbers generallly came from.

China has a large market...but the theater/studio split isn't nearly as good. The Studios make the most money from the Domestic Box Office.

Shang Chi is being touted as a great movie in initial reviews, and I'm hoping it can carry that energy well into release. But there is a lot if skepticism overseas, and qe still have the whole covid situation that has fans (like myself) still hesitant heading out to theatres.

Sure, Covid is a situation...but theaters are already starting to fill up. I went to see The Suicide Squad tonight...and the theater wasn't packed...but it was pretty busy considering it's already into it's second week.

GotG didn't have any of these challenges in the way, and word of mouth spread fast in its favour. Hopefully same can happen with Shang Chi.

I'm just saying that him being relatively unknown isn't going to be the thing that causes Shang-Chi to fail. It's a MCU film. People will go see it just because of that.

Rise of Skywalker made a billion at box office too.

Yeah, which means from a financial perspective, RoS was a success. It made them way more money than it cost them to make. And Captain Marvel, "a character nobody knew or cared about" did about as well as a fricken STAR WARS film. Kinda proves my point. Again, I don't think Disney would be crying too much if Shang Chi is another "Captain Marvel Situation"

Besides, CM was received much better than RoS.

[Triceron]

China has a large market...but the theater/studio split isn't nearly as good. The Studios make the most money from the Domestic Box Office.

Sure, but China comes in second and is far beyond any other single country in the international market. For all MCU movies.

Sure, Covid is a situation...but theaters are already starting to fill up. I went to see The Suicide Squad tonight...and the theater wasn't packed...but it was pretty busy considering it's already into it's second week.

It's dropping off pretty fast in its second week unfortunately, so it's making the brunt of its money off the first week sales while trickling in the second week. Not sure how video-on-demand factors into all of this though, so I can't say too much about whether the big wigs consider this successful or not, in terms of box office. Too early to tell I think.

I'm just saying that him being relatively unknown isn't going to be the thing that causes Shang-Chi to fail. It's a MCU film. People will go see it just because of that.

Yes being unknown is not a big concern, but it is still a concern. I am hyped on this movie, I have read it's a good movie, and I'm hopeful for its success. As for the MCU fans around me who are interested in this film? Probably one, and it's the one guy in our group who watches any/all Comic Book movies regardless of quality or content. Not many people I know personally have this movie in their radar, and I think it will take a lot of word-of-mouth to really get things in gear for this movie.

Again, I have my skepticisms, because really we're jumping into new territory with the MCU with Phase 4. Shang Chi hasn't built on hype from being at the end credits of Infinity War or End Game, if you get what I mean. It's on its own.

Again, I'm not doomsaying, I'm simply expressing concern. I really shouldn't have to be scrutinized for expressing concern and have to be met with 'It's an MCU movie, it'll do fine, don't worry', because so was Black Widow and it didn't exactly hit MCU benchmark numbers (though Disney+ certainly muddles the box office numbers).

Yeah, which means from a financial perspective, RoS was a success. It made them way more money than it cost them to make. And Captain Marvel, "a character nobody knew or cared about" did about as well as a fricken STAR WARS film. Kinda proves my point.

And none of those Star Wars actors will reprise their roles for future titles, which proves my point.

My concern isn't how much money the studio will make, it's what lies in the future of the characters. I've expressed this multiple times.

Of course, I don't think Shang Chi will literally be a Rise of Skywalker situation at all. I think it's actually a solid movie that just needs to get some hype built up for it, so it's actually in the complete opposite situation; a diamond in the rough that hasn't been seen beyond being a 'lump of coal'. I'm just pointing out that just because a movie makes a ton of money doesn't mean the future of the characters and story are totally fine, and financial success is not the only means of measurement I'm using to gauge the future of this character. It's still too early to tell how the public at large will accept Shang Chi as a headliner for Phase 4 MCU. I'm totally ready to accept him in the ranks, and again, I'm simply expressing concern for whether the rest of the fans around the world will share in the hype, or find reason to doom it into obscurity, like the Solo movie (which wasn't a bad movie, but got wrapped up in controversy)

I will say that the premiere happening and the hype from all sources is easing some of the concerns I had when I originally posted, so today is a much different situation than yesterday. So yes, I feel much more confident in a stronger domestic release and performance, at least in terms of word-of-mouth and reviews spreading around and garnering some interest in the movie. As long as the creators are confident in the character and their future as a Phase 4 headliner, that's really all I'm concerned about.

Besides, CM was received much better than RoS.

Sure, and she still got sat in the back seat of Endgame. As I said, I don't like what happened _to the character_ after so much hype was built up from both an Infinity War end credit and a whole movie introducing her as a new hero. Her role in End Game was very much a deus ex machina for Tony Stark, and a *very minor* appearance at the end.

[Egomaniac]

Sure, and she still got sat in the back seat of Endgame. As I said, I don't like what happened _to the character_ after so much hype was built up from both an Infinity War end credit and a whole movie introducing her as a new hero. Her role in End Game was very much a deus ex machina for Tony Stark, and a *very minor* appearance at the end.

That's not a Captain Marvel problem... that's an Endgame problem. The Russos decided to sideline her. They wanted to focus more on the original Avengers. Even the "newbies" that go on the Time Heist are kinda sidelined for the most part.

[Stormcall]

Sure, Covid is a situation...but theaters are already starting to fill up. I went to see The Suicide Squad tonight...and the theater wasn't packed...but it was pretty busy considering it's already into it's second week.

Suicide Squad is considered a flop. It's been doing very poorly in theaters(not even meeting the very modest predictions it was getting for opening weekend) and has had the second worst theatrical performances of the entire DC movie universe. So I wouldn't consider your "pretty busy" theater THAT big an indicator a film's potential theatrical success...

[Triceron]

That's not a Captain Marvel problem... that's an Endgame problem. The Russos decided to sideline her. They wanted to focus more on the original Avengers. Even the "newbies" that go on the Time Heist are kinda sidelined for the most part.

You can't say it's not a character problem and then point out that her character's sidelined in the next big movie she was supposed to be hyped for, and her next appearance isn't in a sequel movie, but as part of an ensemble. The creators decided to sideline her, for whatever creative reasons there are. Did End Game have to be a Time Heist movie involving a huge time skip? No, it didn't. Did Captain Marvel have to be written to conveniently exit the story to save other planets? No, it did not have to be written this way. But choosing to do so still sidelined the character.

My concern is how Shang Chi's character will be received (which happens to tie in with box office interest), and how it may affect the future of the character. Good future, Shang Chi gets his own standalone sequels planned for the future, helps headline the upcoming Avengers movie as a major superhero. Not-so-good future, he doesn't get his own movie sequels or ends up being used mostly as cameo appearances in other movies, and being written out of the major plot lines in the next big Avengers movies. Either could happen from a creative level. And I'm not saying this as a slight to the character or a hard-defined indicator of things having to either go A or B. I'm saying that it's a concern because he's supposed to be a headliner for Phase 4, and the future of the character may still depend on how well he is received overall.

And just for context, things are looking pretty good right now so I don't have much concern as I did prior to the premiere. Yet the remaining concern is that it still has a lot of international flak, and there are some very big challenges still being posed with theatre-exclusive box office runs. There are already rumors (some unfounded, I admit) that Marvel is writing off the success of Shang Chi. Chapek has decided to use this movie to push out a 45-day Theatre only release as an 'interesting experiment'. So what happens if it doesn't work out, does that mean Shang Chi is still planned for tons of future content as a major headliner? Or does it mean they're willing to write it all off as an experiment if things don't work out? We don't really know what is in store here.

[Egomaniac]

Suicide Squad is considered a flop. It's been doing very poorly in theaters(not even meeting the very modest predictions it was getting for opening weekend) and has had the second worst theatrical performances of the entire DC movie universe. So I wouldn't consider your "pretty busy" theater THAT big an indicator a film's potential theatrical success...

I wasn't talking about the films theatrical success. I was talking about how people are starting to go back to the theaters. If anything, the fact that Suicide squad isn't doing that well is even more of an indication of how theaters are coming back.

I can't speak for other areas...but where I live over 80% of the population has had both doses of the vaccine....and even more have had at least 1 shot. There's only a small percentage of people that absolutely refuse to be vaccinated...and those people have wanted to pretend covid wasn't happening anyway. So we're returning to some semblance of normal here... and that means people are going to the theaters. And, anecdotally, I can see the improvement. There were more people in the theater last night for Suicide Squad on it's second week than there were in the theater when I saw Black Widow on it's opening weekend.

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You can't say it's not a character problem and then point out that her character's sidelined in the next big movie she was supposed to be hyped for, and her next appearance isn't in a sequel movie, but as part of an ensemble. The creators decided to sideline her, for whatever creative reasons there are. Did End Game have to be a Time Heist movie involving a huge time skip? No, it didn't. Did Captain Marvel have to be written to conveniently exit the story to save other planets? No, it did not have to be written this way. But choosing to do so still sidelined the character.

Like I said, everyone that wasn't an original Avenger was kind of sidelined in that film. The focus was on the original team.

[Ivanstone]

Suicide Squad is considered a flop. It's been doing very poorly in theaters(not even meeting the very modest predictions it was getting for opening weekend) and has had the second worst theatrical performances of the entire DC movie universe. So I wouldn't consider your "pretty busy" theater THAT big an indicator a film's potential theatrical success...

Currently we would have to consider a different metric for theatres. Opening weekend isn’t a great indicator since many theatres wouldn’t be open at full capacity and people may spread out their viewings.

It did have a steep drop off though which is rarely a good sign. It did premiere on streaming opening night so that would also have an effect.

[Endus]

Currently we would have to consider a different metric for theatres. Opening weekend isn’t a great indicator since many theatres wouldn’t be open at full capacity and people may spread out their viewings.

It did have a steep drop off though which is rarely a good sign. It did premiere on streaming opening night so that would also have an effect.

I'd normally have gone out to see Suicide Squad in theaters (and Black Widow, for that matter). I didn't, because of the pandemic. I'm fully vaccinated, but I'm not sitting in a germpit for two hours with a hundred or so randos, regardless.

I used to go see a film in theater at least once or twice a month. I think the last one I saw in theaters was actually Rise of Skywalker. Goddammit.

[Triceron]

Currently we would have to consider a different metric for theatres. Opening weekend isn’t a great indicator since many theatres wouldn’t be open at full capacity and people may spread out their viewings.

It did have a steep drop off though which is rarely a good sign. It did premiere on streaming opening night so that would also have an effect.

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/year/world/

I mean, looking at this list, it's pretty damning for whatever you consider as any kind of 'new metric' for what should and should not be a success. How can any metric spin this as Suicide Squad and Free Guy being successful at all?

Granted all these numbers are muddled without accounting for streaming services, it's still going to be an uphill battle for any movie to be considered a success off theatrical release alone. This is just an odd timing for it all, and I really hope it doesn't have repercussions for the IP's involved.