[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Dhrizzle]

I think Thor 2 was one of the better Marvel Movies. I think the low point was Ragnarok where Thor became more of a clown. It was a funny movie but it totally destroyed his character.

Thor 2? As in the Dark World?? I've never seen anyone say it was even remotely good, let alone "one of the better Marvel movies". Meanwhile, I only really ever see praise for Ragnarok. How interesting.

I both agree and disagree with @Yriel. I would have preferred Thor to have carried on with the epic/mystical side of things that Dark World attempted but done better, I didn't like the direction they took him in Ragnarok but have to admit it was a brilliant movie where they just managed to keep him amusing without making the character outright silly.

[Endus]

Let me elaberate more on what I mean as I was a bit vague. When I saw 'too Disney' that's not necessarily an insult, more an observation on a style they use. Go look sat Encanto, Frozen, Moana, all awesome movies by the way, I love them all. But they have a certain 'feel' to them when it comes to their style of acting in those movies they all have a certain style of acting, once again its not bad, it suits the Disney animated feel, but I see a lot of it move over into Marvel movies too. Just look at the earlier Marvel movies to now, you could say 'well they found more of an identity' and sure in GotG that identity works, but Spider-Man and Thor is just seems very out of place, and Spider-Man can be pretty goofy int he comics, Spider-Man is fun and quippy, so it may work with him, but the comedy they use is very grating on me, as I said less Ned fucking Leeds might help, and you are right maybe it is just me, but it is something I feel just I have noticed, those that cannot see it I wish I couldn't. I just watched a lot of Disney so I pick up on these things. :P

And I'm gonna disagree that there's really any such similarity. There's been a pretty wide diversity of thematic approaches to MCU films, with a lot of them essentially taking on a subgenre; Captain America: Winter Soldier is a spy movie, fundamentally, GotG is a space opera, Ant-Man films are heist movies, etc. And Marvel has always had quippy heroes. Some more than most, yes, like Spider-Man, but they've all had light-hearted moments.

And while there's a difference between, say, Thor 2 and the post-GotG era, that's largely because the earlier films were making tonal mistakes, which the later films largely corrected for (and for a counter-example, I present to you The Eternals, and why that film was loathed by audiences).

X-Men have had some silly moments, but their overall theme and tone is pretty dark, (sure not as dark and Punisher but still pretty heavy themes) God Loves Man Kills, Operation Zero Tolerance, Fatal Attractions, X-Tinction Agenda, Mutant Massacre, Necrosha, Old Man Logan, Deadly Genesis, Dark Phoenix , E is for Extinction (all off the top of my head).

Honestly, can't see it. Sure, there's world-ending stakes at times, and issues like racism front and center, but that kind of stuff is present in nearly all Marvel comics with heroes of that caliber, especially teams. It isn't so much that the themes aren't serious, it's that the content is still presented in a largely PG-13 meant-for-teens kind of approach, for the most part. Unlike, say, Moon Knight (and any spoilers here are from comics I'm not spoiling shit about the show), where for a while there was a major focus over his early nemesis, because Marc didn't just kill the guy, he cut his face off. And, like, kept it. And wore it on his own face sometimes. And was harassed for ages by the skinned-face image of the guy, because Khonsu was being a dick about it. Like, super-graphically. Like, I'm uncomfortable linking examples here because a mod might think it crosses a line even though it's a comic book.

All Marvel comics get that dark, pretty much, unless it's specifically a light-heared one like Squirrel Girl. Hell, even some of those; ever read Nextwave?

I don't see how the X-men stand out from the majority in this. At best, they're dealing with a wider scale, because they're a globe-hopping team, where some other comics like Daredevil will get really local and personal and focus on just one guy trying to live his life, but the level of darkness scales appropriately in those cases.

- - - Updated - - -

I both agree and disagree with @Yriel. I would have preferred Thor to have carried on with the epic/mystical side of things that Dark World attempted but done better, I didn't like the direction they took him in Ragnarok but have to admit it was a brilliant movie where they just managed to keep him amusing without making the character outright silly.

Honestly, Ragnarok somehow managed to make Thor's earnestness ring through while presenting the Cosmic universe itself as silly. Which fits really well with GotG. Thor's not really the butt of most of the jokes, and the few where he is it's mostly just showing how wacky everything around him is and how he's barely handling it. Seriously; Thor goes from happy-go-lucky-surfer-God to battle-tested storm god who's lost nearly everything and isn't gonna take it any more over the course of that film. It's jokey, but there's a lot of pathos in the mix there too.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I don't see how the X-men stand out from the majority in this. At best, they're dealing with a wider scale, because they're a globe-hopping team, where some other comics like Daredevil will get really local and personal and focus on just one guy trying to live his life, but the level of darkness scales appropriately in those cases.

Yeah, I would say that X-Men can get very heavy... but that's not the same thing as being dark. Like, more than any other mainstream Marvel or DC comic...x-men touches on social issues. Bigotry against Mutants being an intentional parallel to, at first, racism and later expanding to include all kinds of bigotry. They deal with the same level of threats as the Avengers, but at the end of the day the Avengers are mostly loved and supported and the X-Men are, at best, tolerated. But at the same time...the comics themselves are PG-13. Even when characters die...that's a temporary setback. It's even an in-universe joke that Mutant heaven has Revolving Doors instead of Pearly Gates.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

With Marvel finally bringing the X-Men in, all I want is the Onslaught story done, is that too much to ask? I'm sure they can make it work.

That would be a looooong way away even if they were tempted. And it would probably have about as much to do with the comic version as "Age of Ultron" did with its.

[Chadow]

So...Moon Knight...anyone?

Was a 40min build up episode...kinda weird...but i kinda like it.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

So...Moon Knight...anyone?

Was a 40min build up episode...kinda weird...but i kinda like it.

I predict the series will be overall very good...but will be somewhat brought down by a rushed final episode.

[SavoirFaire]

With Marvel finally bringing the X-Men in, all I want is the Onslaught story done, is that too much to ask? I'm sure they can make it work.

Anyone subbed to Marvel Unlimited? I took a break from comics during this time and always wanted to check out Onslaught, but reading anything that was at all a crossover when I was subbed was a mess. Wonder if they ever implemented a reading list or roadmap to the bigger events/series so people could catch back up easier.

[Shadowferal]

The "Onslaught" crap wasn't all that good. But then I was only buying comics out of habit at that point and barely caring about the story anyway.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Anyone subbed to Marvel Unlimited? I took a break from comics during this time and always wanted to check out Onslaught, but reading anything that was at all a crossover when I was subbed was a mess. Wonder if they ever implemented a reading list or roadmap to the bigger events/series so people could catch back up easier.

There are reading guides...but it's still kind of a hassle. When you get to the end of a book...the prompt that comes up is for the next book in the series...not the next part of the crossover... so you have to go all the way to the reading guide. It doesn't make it impossible...just inconvenient.

It would be nice to have a multi-choice prompt when appropriate. Something like "Click here to continue reading this series" and "Click here for the next part of the Event".

[Lorgar Aurelian]

There are reading guides...but it's still kind of a hassle. When you get to the end of a book...the prompt that comes up is for the next book in the series...not the next part of the crossover... so you have to go all the way to the reading guide. It doesn't make it impossible...just inconvenient.

It would be nice to have a multi-choice prompt when appropriate. Something like "Click here to continue reading this series" and "Click here for the next part of the Event".

Stupid thing is they actually had something like this for a short period before removing it.

Around the time all of secret empire was out I gave the event ago and there was a “next in event” pop up at the end of each issue that went into all the tie ins. But at some point between secret empire and war of the realms came out it was seemingly removed as I had to find every tie in manually again.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Stupid thing is they actually had something like this for a short period before removing it.

Around the time all of secret empire was out I gave the event ago and there was a “next in event” pop up at the end of each issue that went into all the tie ins. But at some point between secret empire and war of the realms came out it was seemingly removed as I had to find every tie in manually again.

Probably figured that it was going to be too much work for them to through every event...especially the ones with all the "unnumbered" tie ins. Or they were like "Well, some people don't want to read all the tie-ins...they just want to follow the main event."

But yeah, must not have been around that long...because I was subbed during secret empire. I was just waiting for the whole thing to finish coming to MU before I started reading it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Probably figured that it was going to be too much work for them to through every event...especially the ones with all the "unnumbered" tie ins. Or they were like "Well, some people don't want to read all the tie-ins...they just want to follow the main event."

But yeah, must not have been around that long...because I was subbed during secret empire. I was just waiting for the whole thing to finish coming to MU before I started reading it.

Ya it was likely only out for like one update and then removed because I've never seen it for any any events before and I tied to find the function again for war of the realms but had no luck. It's a shame to because I only actual went through secret empire because of the ease as I wasn't really interested in the event it self.

[Makabreska]

Theorizing that Marvel Knights series is coming:

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Theorizing that Marvel Knights series is coming:

Slight bit of misinformation in that video... Marvel didn't fully drop the CCA until 2001....not the 70's. They did, however, publish comics without the "Approved by the CCA" Seal of Approval whenever they felt it was appropriate. Also, the CCA revised it's restrictions a few times... which allowed for previously "banned" content to be published.

[Orby]

Yeah, I would say that X-Men can get very heavy... but that's not the same thing as being dark. Like, more than any other mainstream Marvel or DC comic...x-men touches on social issues. Bigotry against Mutants being an intentional parallel to, at first, racism and later expanding to include all kinds of bigotry. They deal with the same level of threats as the Avengers, but at the end of the day the Avengers are mostly loved and supported and the X-Men are, at best, tolerated. But at the same time...the comics themselves are PG-13. Even when characters die...that's a temporary setback. It's even an in-universe joke that Mutant heaven has Revolving Doors instead of Pearly Gates.

One of the key things to remember is that Disney should not treat X-Men as heroes, at least like Avengers or Fantastic 4, they are just people fighting to survive in a world that fears and hates them... I hope Disney highlights this and separates it from being just another hero team. And I hope they never touch the Phoenix Saga again, like the Ben death in Spider-Man, lets forget that this time around. Only the aminated series seemed to have adapted that event well enough. xD

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

One of the key things to remember is that Disney should not treat X-Men as heroes, at least like Avengers or Fantastic 4, they are just people fighting to survive in a world that fears and hates them... I hope Disney highlights this and separates it from being just another hero team. And I hope they never touch the Phoenix Saga again, like the Ben death in Spider-Man, lets forget that this time around. Only the aminated series seemed to have adapted that event well enough. xD

They should absolutely treat the X-Men like heroes. They are heroes in a world that hates and fears them...which makes them even more heroic really. It's easy to be a hero when everyone loves you. Much harder when the people you save spit in your face.

And the animated series didn't do Dark Phoenix well either. There's just too much there to do justice in a film or even an extended arc on a television show. If they ever want to revist it again...they should make it like an entire MCU Phase.

[Endus]

They should absolutely treat the X-Men like heroes. They are heroes in a world that hates and fears them...which makes them even more heroic really. It's easy to be a hero when everyone loves you. Much harder when the people you save spit in your face.

Honestly, even there, what's the point? I'm not even sure the X-men have a reason to exist, in the MCU. Wanda is already the archetype filling the "hated and feared but heroic sometimes" bit. Superheroes in general, even, if you consider the Sokovia Accords and that whole schtick. There's not really a missing gap like that to fit the X-men in to address, in the first place.

Honestly, it might be a cause to take the X-men in a fairly new direction; don't focus on the X-men. Focus on the Xavier Academy. The "X-men" are still the teachers, but teaching is their primary calling, and the heroing is more about protecting their charges from those who'd seek to exploit them than it is about saving the world (because the Avengers largely have that wrapped up). You could even say screw the comics and make all of them either Eternals or Inhumans or aliens, no "mutants" whatsoever; do we really need another origin that isn't that meaningfully different? It even provides a good explanation; your kid cocooned due to Terrigen? Let's get 'em into the program.

And the animated series didn't do Dark Phoenix well either. There's just too much there to do justice in a film or even an extended arc on a television show. If they ever want to revist it again...they should make it like an entire MCU Phase.

Phoenix shouldn't show up for at least 5+ years after the X-men. She should be their second major arc, if not later. That's largely why it keeps failing; they keep trying to rush it. If they're tried to do Thanos and the Infinity Gauntlet in the first Avengers, it wouldn't have worked. Heck, why are we even doing Phoenix? Maybe just let that story be. It's really not that damned interesting.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Honestly, even there, what's the point? I'm not even sure the X-men have a reason to exist, in the MCU. Wanda is already the archetype filling the "hated and feared but heroic sometimes" bit. Superheroes in general, even, if you consider the Sokovia Accords and that whole schtick. There's not really a missing gap like that to fit the X-men in to address, in the first place.

I wouldn't consider the Sokovia accords to be even close to the same thing as the prejudice mutants face. Captain America was never "hated and feared"...hell, even after becoming a "war criminal"...his PSA's were still part of the High School Curriculum.

Honestly, it might be a cause to take the X-men in a fairly new direction; don't focus on the X-men. Focus on the Xavier Academy. The "X-men" are still the teachers, but teaching is their primary calling, and the heroing is more about protecting their charges from those who'd seek to exploit them than it is about saving the world (because the Avengers largely have that wrapped up).

I mean, I'd be very happy with a Disney+ series that was more focused on the school and the kids... but I'm not sure that makes a good movie series. "Wolverine teaches Gym Class" makes for a fun interlude in a movie... but it isn't the movie itself

You could even say screw the comics and make all of them either Eternals or Inhumans or aliens, no "mutants" whatsoever; do we really need another origin that isn't that meaningfully different? It even provides a good explanation; your kid cocooned due to Terrigen? Let's get 'em into the program.

They were trying to do that with Inhumans in the comics. They wanted to sideline mutants entirely... because they didn't want to give the fox movies and free advertising. Didn't work. Whatever the reason...Inhumans just don't hit home the way Mutants do...even to the non-comic readers.

Heck, why are we even doing Phoenix? Maybe just let that story be. It's really not that damned interesting.

That is what most people would call an "unpopular opinion". The Dark Phoenix Saga is considered by most X-fans to be among the greatest X-men Stories of all time. You won't find many "Best X-Men Story Arcs" lists that don't have it at least in the top 5. It's the reason they keep on trying to do it. The problem is they always want to rush it...and it's a slow burn. Like I said, if they wanted to devote an entire phase to it...that could be a thing... but this whole "let's do it all in a single movie while we're also dealing with this other thing" just doesn't work. Even in the animated series...they devoted 9 episodes to it...but, after you accoutn for commercial breaks...that still only works out to about 3 hours.... which is how long "The Batman" is.

[Orby]

They should absolutely treat the X-Men like heroes. They are heroes in a world that hates and fears them...which makes them even more heroic really. It's easy to be a hero when everyone loves you. Much harder when the people you save spit in your face.

X-Men are heroes by convivence, If Disney treat them like just another hero team then it will suck, there is so much nuance to X-Men I'm pretty sure people don't get. Most of the time they treat and distance themselves from heroes or at least on how they are viewed because of the fact they are mutants. they don't choose to be heroes.

also it depends on your writers for them I guess. Recently things may have changed I haven't read X-Men for 4 years. but I always like that scene post Civil War

And the animated series didn't do Dark Phoenix well either. There's just too much there to do justice in a film or even an extended arc on a television show. If they ever want to revist it again...they should make it like an entire MCU Phase.

You don't have to like it but X-Men:TAS is the best adaptation of all the Phoenix Saga adaptations. Mainly because it carried itself over 2 seasons, let it breathe, let it develop. With a 2 hour movie will never have that, that's why all the other attempts have failed, they have tried to cram a 'saga' into one movie every time and its always suffered because of it.

[Shadowferal]

also it depends on your writers for them I guess. Recently things may have changed I haven't read X-Men for 4 years. but I always like that scene post Civil War

X-Men became such a shitshow later. The following panel was the reason why I stopped collecting or even caring about the title;



I firmly believe that this was some a-hole's sad writing attempt at testing the waters to see if there was any fan support for redeeming Sabertooth.