Cauterise, why do my mage colleagues consider it "bad"

[LocNess]

But Horridon really is too hard on normal....

If a Mage choosing a talent that isn't best for the fight stops your raid from killing a boss then there's something much more wrong in your raid than what talent you chose. Seriously though, you can pick any god damn talent you want and it won't prevent you from killing a boss. I'm not saying all 3 are optimal, I'm saying all 3 work and get the job done.

If you are not choosing the optimal talents for your own class then why should I want to bring that player to a raid? Everybody should always work to be the most optimal they can in a raiding environment. Greater Invis 99% of the time is better than Cauterize as it gives a player way more utility and general survivability. Getting RNG Global'd isn't a risk you should talent for.

[Mastamage]

If you are not choosing the optimal talents for your own class then why should I want to bring that player to a raid? Everybody should always work to be the most optimal they can in a raiding environment. Greater Invis 99% of the time is better than Cauterize as it gives a player way more utility and general survivability. Getting RNG Global'd isn't a risk you should talent for.

I'm an advocate for GI and use it on 100% of the fights. What I'm getting at is that not choosing GI won't make or break your raid.

[mrgreenthump]

This is a final warning for this thread, keep it civil and on topic please.

[Neoxx]

But if getting rng globaled is the only risk of dying, what spec GI then?

[RickJamesLich]

But Horridon really is too hard on normal....

If a Mage choosing a talent that isn't 100% best for the fight stops your raid from killing a boss then there's something much more wrong in your raid than what talent they chose. Seriously though, you can pick any god damn talent you want and it won't prevent you from killing a boss. I'm not saying all 3 are optimal, I'm saying all 3 work and get the job done.

If your raid is tackling hard modes like the OP said, why not take things serious and pick the correct talents. Every raid has "that guy" you know, the guy that will die when things are going fine, and cause you to have to repeat a fight way more than your group likely needs. Managing your talents properly helps make sure you aren't that guy.

Theoretically any talent can work, but some are obviously way better than others. The OP is looking for good advice and it sounds like his raid spot isn't exactly guaranteed, so I'm giving it. Tomes are dirt cheap and there's no reason not to use them. On fights where there is steady yet high aoe damage going out, cauterize has a good chance of killing you anyways with the dot. Greater invis has way more uses. In the rare event that you do pull aggro, greater invis can help you. If the group is about to wipe and you don't want to have high repair bills, like on something like heroic dark animus, greater invis has probably saved me 1,000 gold.

If the OP was just doing something like LFR, I'd definitely say just pick whatever talent, but the guy is looking for real advice. The whole "just pick anything" doesn't help these types.

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But if getting rng globaled is the only risk of dying, what spec GI then?

Depends. For example on something like heroic nazgrim, if you have the bone cracker debuff and warsong is about to go off, if you have cauterizing flame, IMO the chances of you dying a much higher than if you popped GI. With Cauterizing flame, if it goes off, and you still have the bonecracker debuff, you are taking ALOT of damage and your healers have to put a lot of focus on you... assuming you're alive. If you popped GI instead, you're healthy would only barely go down from the warsong and you'd still be at high enough HP where you wouldn't burden your healers as much. You essentially made their job easier. Not only that, but with the short CD, if the same scenario happens again later in the fight (which chances are, it will), GI will be up before cauterizing flame will be.

[Deleted]

But if getting rng globaled is the only risk of dying, what spec GI then?

Word. If you get into a situation where you have to use GI just to survive, you are already playing the fight wrong. And even when that happens, you still got IB. You can substitute GI with Iceblock(mostly), but not Cauterize with GI.

As for the healing aspect, do you think healers care more about you taken less damage or having to waste a CR because you get spiked too hard?

[Deleted]

Depends. For example on something like heroic nazgrim, if you have the bone cracker debuff and warsong is about to go off, if you have cauterizing flame, IMO the chances of you dying a much higher than if you popped GI. With Cauterizing flame, if it goes off, and you still have the bonecracker debuff, you are taking ALOT of damage and your healers have to put a lot of focus on you... assuming you're alive. If you popped GI instead, you're healthy would only barely go down from the warsong and you'd still be at high enough HP where you wouldn't burden your healers as much. You essentially made their job easier. Not only that, but with the short CD, if the same scenario happens again later in the fight (which chances are, it will), GI will be up before cauterizing flame will be.

In what possible way is the situation you're describing RNG-globalled? Predictive damage incoming is suddenly RNG-globalled now?

[Frost1129]

Word. If you get into a situation where you have to use GI just to survive, you are already playing the fight wrong. And even when that happens, you still got IB. You can substitute GI with Iceblock(mostly), but not Cauterize with GI.

As for the healing aspect, do you think healers care more about you taken less damage or having to waste a CR because you get spiked too hard?

I can think of four abilities off the top of my head that G.Invis use on is the way to go, all of which have nothing to do with "playing the fight wrong." With another second or two, I could probably name an important ability on every fight.

[Polarthief]

Eh yeah I haven't been checking here as often due to lack of new info. Maybe once every 3 hours compared to having this forum be my homepage

I was half making fun of those who think 1-2 globals matter across an entire fight, but also pointing out that the need for DPS is high, and people take those 1-2 globals a bit too far, though I HAVE seen fights where literally one global saved a raid (but like 2 out of 5000 pulls >.>)

[Mastamage]

you wouldn't burden your healers as much. You essentially made their job easier

The only fight burdening your healers would be a problem is Thok. This fight also happens to be one where Cauterize is taken a lot of the time.

[Killuha]

I'd go with Cauterize unless I was planing on cheesing or soaking something.

TS will keep you alive through all of the unavoidable damage and you still have ice block if the healers are somehow preoccupied.
Only time you die is when something unexpected happens and you might not GI in time then.

Personally I like GI more since it offers more utility but Cauterize will probably save my ass more often than GI.

[Deleted]

I can think of four abilities off the top of my head that G.Invis use on is the way to go, all of which have nothing to do with "playing the fight wrong." With another second or two, I could probably name an important ability on every fight.

I'm not saying Cauterize is strictly better on every fight, in fact GI is a decent dps increase on Malkorok. But still, it has very limited use in SoO.

And I would love to know what abilities you are thinking about that would require the use of GI.

[Neoxx]

Depends. For example on something like heroic nazgrim, if you have the bone cracker debuff and warsong is about to go off, if you have cauterizing flame, IMO the chances of you dying a much higher than if you popped GI. With Cauterizing flame, if it goes off, and you still have the bonecracker debuff, you are taking ALOT of damage and your healers have to put a lot of focus on you... assuming you're alive. If you popped GI instead, you're healthy would only barely go down from the warsong and you'd still be at high enough HP where you wouldn't burden your healers as much. You essentially made their job easier. Not only that, but with the short CD, if the same scenario happens again later in the fight (which chances are, it will), GI will be up before cauterizing flame will be.

Getting killed by warsong is not rng, it's easy predictable. Even with the bone cracker debuff it's easy to survive, just use temporal shield and/or a raid cooldown and everything is fine ... no need for GI here. If Cauterize procs use healthstone and you are fine, if same thing happens again use iceblock right before warsong and you are fine again.
Honestly we just nuke Nazgrim all the time even in defensive stance. We get like 4 warsongs and 4 Ravager and I'm still fine everytime. You have to trust your healer and use Temporal Shield, that's all. If Cauterize procs (that's rarely the case) be more carefull next time.

[Frost1129]

I'm not saying Cauterize is strictly better on every fight, in fact GI is a decent dps increase on Malkorok. But still, it has very limited use in SoO.

And I would love to know what abilities you are thinking about that would require the use of GI.

There is a difference between "require" and "Doing this actively helps your raid, why wouldn't you want to do these things?" It's one of those small differences between bottom/mid tier heroic teams and higher tier teams.

Removing stacks on Immerseus
Calamity, removing the He debuff on Fallen Protectors
Swelling Pride on Sha of Pride
Removing stacks during Galakras ground phase / surviving a slow Tower 1 kill
Shock Pulse on Iron Juggernaut
Iron Prison on Dark Shamans (or surviving a 1 or 2 second between Iron Prison->Falling Ash)
War Cry on General Nazgrim (If you get it)
Soaking Orbs on Malkorok
Set to Blow soak on Spoils
For Thok my RL had a raid CD time of "personals," which is where the entire raid hit their big CDs instead of blowing another actual raid CD. So G.Invis was great here.
Removing Sawblades on Siegecrafter or just surviving random shitty RNG with sawblades/magnet/laser crap.
Firy Edge, solo soaking aim on Paragons

All of the above abilities just happen to you. You can't dodge them. Except for Orbs on malkorok I guess. But G. Invis either removes the mechanic entirely (sawblades/AIM/Set to Blow) or trivializes the damage to the point where your healers can focus on people without 90% dmg reductions (like, almost every other class)

I don't have a ton of experience on H. Garrosh, only killed him once. But G. invis was great during empowered Whirlwind and saving my ass during a hectic P4.

There is no reason not to be reducing this damage that is coming in or cheesing the mechanics if you're progressing.

[mrgreenthump]

In what possible way is the situation you're describing RNG-globalled? Predictive damage incoming is suddenly RNG-globalled now?

Indeed.. If there would be any non-predictable 1 shotting damage in the game, it would get nerfed right away.

[Deleted]

I have 3 healer alts, and i dont need your help on predictable damage. And IMO i dont f'ing care if u can remove a dot, my hot/shield/totem/aoe heal/indirect heal can very well take care of that and i can still keep a tank and the rest of the raid up.

Although I never healed in heroic raids, I think I understand your reasoning about oom and aoeheal stuff. But regarding the quoted part, experience say otherwise - of course that's only my own bitter xp with dots or raid-wide aoe. Basically what I felt during Mists while actively raiding is 'if you don't do your utmost for survival, you're screwed'. Canceling a deadly dot may have only a small impact on healers' mana, but it can compensate for the lack of their awareness.

[Deleted]

There is a difference between "require" and "Doing this actively helps your raid, why wouldn't you want to do these things?" It's one of those small differences between bottom/mid tier heroic teams and higher tier teams.

Many of the damage listed here are pretty trivial in the first place and some of them can be made an equally strong case for using cauterize to deal with.
For exemple on ironjugg you can use GI to help with one shock pulse, what about the other shock pulses? What about the random spike in phase one? The best thing about cauterize is it's never wasted. It only procs when you absolutely need it. And as I said before healers care more about a person being alive or not more than anything else.
And
Immerseus: I agree it has it's uses on 10man.
Thok: The only times that I wipe here is when the healers mismanage their CDs during p1. And you'll never know when it's too late. Mages being the squishiest class in the game will die first.
Siegecrafter: There's really nothing RNG about any of those things though. I guess both talents would work equally as well
Paragon: You can solo soak aim just fine with normal invis, and with cauterize you can help soak without worrying a sudden death. Fiery Edge is also one of the reason why cauterize is strong here. It spikes alot and you can't afford to GI every one of them.
As for garrosh, I don't have enough exp here to draw any conclusions here.

The difference between 10 man and 25 man is also huge though. I can see GI being slightly more valuable in 10man where there are less raid CDs.

[RickJamesLich]

In what possible way is the situation you're describing RNG-globalled? Predictive damage incoming is suddenly RNG-globalled now?

Which bosses have random RNG attacks that can go after anyone? In almost every case out there you can predict where damage is coming from ahead of time. We're not talking about pvp.

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Getting killed by warsong is not rng, it's easy predictable. Even with the bone cracker debuff it's easy to survive, just use temporal shield and/or a raid cooldown and everything is fine ... no need for GI here. If Cauterize procs use healthstone and you are fine, if same thing happens again use iceblock right before warsong and you are fine again.
Honestly we just nuke Nazgrim all the time even in defensive stance. We get like 4 warsongs and 4 Ravager and I'm still fine everytime. You have to trust your healer and use Temporal Shield, that's all. If Cauterize procs (that's rarely the case) be more carefull next time.

With my example you don't have to use a health stone though, and again, you have a shorter CD with greater invis still. I really can't think of a boss that just RNG kills people out of the blue, like the guy I responded to, which boss does that? lol. On top of all of that, you are still taking much less damage with greater invis, which was my whole point, your healers don't have to worry about you.

[Kenbud]

The amount of nonsense being spewed in this thread is staggering.

I am allergic to the word spew. Infracted. - Shang

[Deleted]

The amount of nonsense being spewed in this thread is staggering.

Highly ironic coming from the guy who himself has spewed plenty of nonsense in the past, passing it off as fact just because you yourself hadn't read up on your own class