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  1. #1
    Over 9000! Gimlix's Avatar
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    How come that the Forsaken aren't kicked out the Horde yet?

    For their crimes against the horde at the Wrath gates?

    I barely followed the lore in wotlk, but why didn't the horde do something against their crime?
    Do they just not care, or are they afraid?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shekora View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?
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    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?

  2. #2
    It was a group of forsaken on their own, not the majority. It was a while ago but I don't think sylvanas was apart of it, I think she was with the players when they were taking back undercity?

    I wouldn't put it past sylvanas to play both sides though and continue on with the horde if her plan failed :P

  3. #3
    Herald of the Titans Detheavn's Avatar
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    I guess you missed the quest chain back in WotLK which actually took you into Undercity?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    I barely followed the lore in wotlk,
    This is why.
    Quote Originally Posted by MyndZero View Post
    It was a group of forsaken on their own, not the majority. It was a while ago but I don't think sylvanas was apart of it, I think she was with the players when they were taking back undercity?

    I wouldn't put it past sylvanas to play both sides though and continue on with the horde if her plan failed :P
    but there's the real reson.

  5. #5
    It was Varimathrass and High Apothecary Putress, or something like that, that lead a splinter group in UC which was in contact with the Burning Legion. It had nothing to do with the Forsaken as a whole. During the event most of UC was exiled to Orgrimmar, including Sylvanas.

    Spell-check suggests I change Varimathrass to Aromatherapist btw...

  6. #6
    They're also bound by some sort of loyalty to the Blood Elves. Both suffered enormously at the hands of the Lich King and that doesn't even account for the fact that Sylvannas still has some level of "affection" (or "cold, calculated loyalty" at worst) for her people (She was Ranger-General of Silvermoon) and when the Blood Elves comprise a powerful ally for the Horde (their knowledge of the Arcane is unrivalled and they are astounding Rangers/Hunters/Marksmen/Guards) it's in the Horde's best interest to keep them happy. Since the elves live, somewhat, under Sylvannas's thumb it also serves the Horde to keep HER. The Forsaken themselves have developed a pious loyalty to their Dark Lady and you do not want a kingdom's worth of intellegent, necrotic, powerful and unfeeling Zombies on your bad side.

    Their methods are questionable, their results undeniable. The Forsaken are bound to the Horde in the same manner most Horde races are... Mutual dependence. They would not survive against their foes without the Horde and the Horde would not be in good standing to lose them either.

  7. #7
    Imagine you are locked in a cold war with another group of races. Now, each faction holds a majority share on two different continents. On the continent held by your enemy, you have an ally firmly entrenched in the ruins of one of the greatest cities your enemy has ever built. It is a symbolic victory for your faction, and a bitter reminder to your enemy.

    On top of this, your ally on this distant continent is a race of beings that do not need to eat, sleep, or drink. When they go into battle, they do not need to worry bout logistics like supply lines, or finding nearby potable water. They don't get tired when a battle goes long. This ally also has the ability to add to their own ranks the dead soldiers of your enemy.

    The Forsaken are an incredibly useful tool for the Horde. So long as the Horde believes that they can be controlled well enough, kicking them out would be a terrible idea. Clearly, Garrosh felt as though he could control them. It remains to be seen if Vol'jin is of a similar opinion.

  8. #8
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    Grand Apothecary Putress and his group of followers were executed during their coup d'etat on Undercity, after the events taken place at the Wrath Gate.

  9. #9
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    For their crimes against the horde at the Wrath gates?

    I barely followed the lore in wotlk, but why didn't the horde do something against their crime?
    Do they just not care, or are they afraid?
    Sylvanas appealed to Thrall for aid in retaking the Undercity, as Putress and Varimathras had launched a bloody coup after the Wrathgate. It was a huge event back in Wrath that was sadly removed in Cataclysm due to phasing issues with the rebuilt Azeroth (though devs have seemed amenable toward making the Battle for the Undercity into a scenario one day).

    The Battle for the Undercity is also when the Alliance-Horde coalition from TBC completely fell apart, as Varian sent troops in to take Undercity for the Alliance and to get revenge for Bolvar's (apparent) death. When the Alliance and Horde forces met in Sylvanas's throne room after Varimathras's death (the Alliance took down Putress in the Apothecarium while the Horde took down Varimathras in the throne room), Varian attacked Thrall and made clear he had no intention of working with the Horde anymore. It's part of what instigated his fight with Garrosh at the Violet Citadel in the Ulduar trailer.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  10. #10
    Odd how it was a band of rogue Forsaken yet we see Sylvanas using the plague even after Wrathgate. If we had to dethrone our mighty Warchief Garrosh, then that "bitch", Sylvanas, should be forced out as well.

  11. #11
    Easy, there are players in that faction, you can't kick them from the game.

    Even if what happened in Wrath wasn't Sylvanas' doing, it was her fault. And what we saw in Gilneas proves that she is just as evil as the Lich King. She just calls it 'survival' instead of 'justice'. The Forsaken can only survive by plaguing the rest of the world, but Blizzard can't turn them into the bad guys because they are a playable faction. Getting barely any new lore is the only thing that keeps them from becoming villains.

  12. #12
    Because Horde needs them now, more than ever before.

  13. #13
    The rogue faction departure from Sylvanas wasn't the existence of the plague, but the intention to use it for, as Putress said, "death to the living". She wanted a plague to use on her enemies -- the Scourge, and enemies in and around Lordaeron, be they scarlet, Alliance, or unaffiliated. She did not have an agenda to betray the allied and friendly coalition at the Wrathgate, that was all them -- across the board "death to the living" is the Burning Legion talking, through Varimathras (not for nothing, in that same Battle for Undercity, Horde players interrupt him communing with his Master, almost certainly either KJ or Sargeras).

    The Forsaken were never in danger of being expelled from the Horde over that. Sylvanas was obviously embarrassed, she was apologetic and deferential when she met with Thrall and Jaina prior to Battle for UC.

    I wonder how hard it would be to reinvent that questing as, like, a level 74 scenario. Prior to Theramore, it was easily the most pivotal faction-war lore event during World of Warcraft, certainly in game. Hate to see it lost.

  14. #14
    Eh, there is some speculation that Sylvanas was secretly involved in that, and I certainly wouldn't put it past her. But that hasn't been confirmed in lore or by Blizzard in any way. So, officially, Varimathras/Putress and their followers are a renegade group that broke off and tried to overthrow Sylvanas at this point. You can't really blame the Forsaken as a whole for the actions of a few.

    If Blizz ever decides to make Sylvanas go full-on apeshit and become a villian, they might pull a "YEAH, GUESS WHAT, REMEMBER THE WRATHGATE? THAT WAS ME" thing with her.
    Last edited by Ciddy; 2014-03-16 at 05:57 PM.

  15. #15
    Why haven't the orcs been kicked out of the Horde yet for their crimes against the Horde?

  16. #16
    The Unstoppable Force Resentful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    Why haven't the orcs been kicked out of the Horde yet for their crimes against the Horde?
    Because they were two split factions in the first place

    One royal to Garrosh

    and one royal to ''Thrall's horde'' hence you see some orcs siding with Vol'jin in the first place.

  17. #17
    The Horde is all about the fixer-upper, not so much kicking people out. That's more the Alliance's turf, hence why for instance Eitrigg can befriend Tirion and it's no big deal, but Tirion is threatened with execution over it.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    Why haven't the orcs been kicked out of the Horde yet for their crimes against the Horde?
    Same logic here took the words before I could type them. Those that are seen as toxic members of the Horde are usually a minority or extremist sect. There are numerous Forsaken that were against Varimathras' schemes, just like there were Orcs that didn't hop on the boat with Garrosh.

  19. #19
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Imagine you are locked in a cold war with another group of races. Now, each faction holds a majority share on two different continents. On the continent held by your enemy, you have an ally firmly entrenched in the ruins of one of the greatest cities your enemy has ever built. It is a symbolic victory for your faction, and a bitter reminder to your enemy.

    On top of this, your ally on this distant continent is a race of beings that do not need to eat, sleep, or drink. When they go into battle, they do not need to worry bout logistics like supply lines, or finding nearby potable water. They don't get tired when a battle goes long. This ally also has the ability to add to their own ranks the dead soldiers of your enemy.

    The Forsaken are an incredibly useful tool for the Horde. So long as the Horde believes that they can be controlled well enough, kicking them out would be a terrible idea. Clearly, Garrosh felt as though he could control them. It remains to be seen if Vol'jin is of a similar opinion.
    They're really not nearly as useful as you'd think, especially as 1.) They are officially not supposed to be using the plague/necromancy and 2.) Vol'jin's current goal is peace. Despite being perhaps the most powerful force in the Horde right now the Forsaken's strength is mostly cooped up in Lordaeron where it's not much use to the rest of the Horde. They've also got incredibly bad PR with the rest of the world. They're more likely to get the Horde embroiled in a war for Lordaeron which they don't actually want to deal with than they are to be of any help. Vol'jin's first move as Warchief should logically be to jettison the Forsaken from the Horde, allowing the Alliance, and Argent Crusade to deal with them as they wish whilst solidifying the Horde's power in Kalimdor.

  20. #20
    ^If you recall correctly, Thrall and Varian fought over who got to bring Varimathas to justice, and then Taran Zhu stepped in and asked them to put him on trial in pandaria instead, so he ended up escaping back to his homeworld and that's why the next expansion is called Warlords of Xoroth.

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