The future of LFR, ala carte insta 90

[draykorinee]

It's 2014 and people still don't know that PVP gear has virtually the same stats as an equivilent ilvl PVE piece in the same slot? Really? The only exception being socket bonuses are often +pvppower but otherwise they have the same budget for non-pvp stats and a seperate one for the pvppower amount.

Aye I did know, I was being sarcastic because I got made to look silly. I', grinding JP as we speak.

[DarthMonk79]

I for one hate afker's and auto-attackers in LFR. I still do mostly LFR for the valor and easier chances at whatever i need for the current legendary stage on a alt. Even if its LFR and its super easy you should at least attempt to help and treat it like its a actual raid. I also use it more right now cuz my guild is stagnant, I won't leave them though cuz I enjoy the people in it. Rather then wait 4ever in flex, I queue LFR. You actually learn a lot in LFR if you pay attention and learn the proper mechanics. Its made it easier the few times I've done 10/25m norm. I only need a little explanation on the differences and I'm good to go.

[Deja Thoris]

Aye I did know, I was being sarcastic because I got made to look silly. I', grinding JP as we speak.

You're welcome :P

[draykorinee]

You're welcome :P

You have my eternal thanks, I shall no longer remain in a green helm.

[Smudge]

The people freaking out about this must be in some other LFR.

Now, I am in a fair number of questionably effective flex pugs, but LFR has gone pretty smoothly since "Boost Day."

[Ragashii]

The future of LFR is tourist mode and it will probably give items barely better than heroic dungeons for some reason.

The present state of LFR is a horrible mess that makes it pretty damn hard to finish your cloaks. Tues/Wed used to be a good day to run it. Now all the new 90's try to get carried on those days and the weekends seem better. With the influx of the new 90's it's pushed me into flex on alts just to get anything done. But that isn't a bad thing. With 6-8 more months of mists those new 90s have lots of time to get geared...

I hope they never sell max level characters again while the content is still relevant. I don't care if they sell them during a pre-patch for the next xpac but this whole ordeal has been a huge mess.

[Dorothyjean]

I'm not a big fan of LFR but probably for different reasons than most. I realized this while I watched some Hunter in Flex decked out in pvp and pve gear, no reforging, no gems, no enchants ... and the Leader LET him stay. I think the biggest problem with LFR is people's apathy towards people abusing our efforts. Most people are in a rush to get into LFR, get it done and over with and get the frack out ... but what if you spent those extra minutes after every boss to save wipes on future bosses to;

a. Kick low DPS -- learn your class or go away. If people are in full timeless but no reforging, no gems, no enchants -- thats why they're doing low DPS and KICK them! Don't let them make excuses.
b. Kick people who aren't helping out ... 2k heals from a healer -- Click his name, right-click, Vote to Kick.

As for Flex and pugging, Stop allowing these Bad players to infest Your fun. See a Hunter with Warforged gear from Ordos but no gems or enchants on it -- KICK them and replace them. Stop allowing these people the ability to ruin LFR or Flex for everyone else because we're being too apathetic.

[Daffan]

easy game pre-heroic raiding creates easy players

[Sarella]

Actually, a lot of the issues are caused by blizzard creating the discrepancy in dps numbers between first and last tier.

When you first hit max level in an expansion, your dps numbers are low, sometimes even lower than the end of the previous tier as you go from high stat purples into low stat greens. Then the expansion begins, and the numbers rise... and rise...

You begin at 20k, then it's quickly 25k, then 30k, 40k, 60k, 100k... pretty soon you're sitting on 500k dps. And then you go into LFR.
And all of a sudden, someone is doing 40k and you're annoyed, because when you began this tier with an ilevel 40-50 points higher than they are currently, you did twice their dps.

Part of the power creep issue is blizzard making numbers jump so much... when there's really no need for it. People would still feel superior doing 40k if they began doing 20k because it's still more. And more is all people care about.

So while they add an item squish, perhaps they should also consider improving how damage scales in an expansion, so the issue of 20k to 500k doesn't happen as usual. Then you'd find LFR a more enjoyable place!

[Shamanberry]

Part of the power creep issue is blizzard making numbers jump so much... when there's really no need for it. People would still feel superior doing 40k if they began doing 20k because it's still more. And more is all people care about.

So while they add an item squish, perhaps they should also consider improving how damage scales in an expansion, so the issue of 20k to 500k doesn't happen as usual. Then you'd find LFR a more enjoyable place!

There is a need for it. The issue is relative power between tiers, and it's more than just player feelings. You don't just have to be more powerful than you were last tier - you have to be *significantly* more powerful. The reason is that gear from last tier should not be powerful enough to get you through this tier - otherwise, there's be no point in gearing up. If TierX+1 only gave you 500 more DPS than TierX when you're doing 10k DPS to start with, that's enough to be covered by the RNG and good play.

The bigger your numbers get, the more they have to jump to keep that going. Increasing power by, say, 50% means that if you were doing 20k before, you only need to go up by 10k to 30k the next tier. However, if you were doing 100k, you have to go up by 50k to 150k. Then the next tier you go up by 75k to 225k, and so on. Of course, to make it worse, we essentially jump up 4 tiers per actual tier these days due to different raid difficulties - but it seems they may be tweaking that with LFR, so we'll see how that plays out too.

But the point: the item squish IS doing something about it. Without it, the problem would have just gotten worse next expansion.

[Deleted]

But the point: the item squish IS doing something about it. Without it, the problem would have just gotten worse next expansion.

Item squish doesn't actually adress this issue at all.

The stat gain is currently tied to the ilvl of the item by a logarithmic relationship, which resutls in ever increasing differential between tiers. Or in other words:

T14 DPS = 100k
T15 DPS = 200k
T16 DPS = 400k

the above is just an example but you get the idea.

Unless they alter the relationship between ilvl and stats then the power gain throughout an expansion won't alter.

[Deleted]

LFR is just too hard for the ilvl threshold. A full raid of lowest ilvl players (without enchants, gems and glyphs) will have a raid experience but have no chance to kill something without the help of those feeling forced to run it to gear up and move on. Which could be good design. But what if most don't pick up any skill along the way because they are being carried (with or without them knowing it)?

At the same time kick protection is limiting any form of selfcontrol in LFR. I don't try and kick that many folks, yet 90% of the time I 'cannot kick this player for another 2 hours' (personal restriction?). AFK players and queue abuse (dps that queue as heals) needs to be reportable offenses. Tho that would only work if blizz would actually add up reports and enforce something. The biggest pleasure I do get out of LFR is to eventually manage to kick that one healer that even admits/trolls about being afk "playing pokemon" (if only 2 bosses after this had been established).

I know it's too late and they won't do anything like it, but LFR should give you an option with what ilvl of folks you want to queue up. So that a 570 can choose to be a carrying player, or just suck up a long queue untill you get a group that is atleast 560ilvl in some shape or form (example ).

All of this can be fixed with social behaviour like guild runs, friends and pugging thru trade. But let's be honest, you won't find a raid looking to pick up a 483 ilvl for anything, not without very carefull planning or sheer stupid luck.

LFR only works in its current form if enough normal raiders are forced to run it.
It would be so refreshing if they GM's would make an occasional appearance in LFR's and hand out some 3 month long account wide 'dungeonfinder/raidfinder' bans. And why not put an MVP like role in place to gather up info for those report. But there is no sign of any kind of enforcement. We can only hope the group finder lives up to expectations. I'm not going to skip on WoD over it, but it will help define player mentality like previous LFR crap has already done and thereby the quality of new players.

This is spot on. Working on my 4th cloak atm as a Disc Priest and since nobody in the guild does ToT, I'm forced to do LFR. Luckily I can more or less solo heal that crap but unlike the afk'ers and the bads, I actually have to put in some effort to keep the group alive. And why don't I just go afk as well? Cause I don't wanna spend 2 hours per wing.

But when you see a lvl 90 character dish out 35k dps on a boss fight, it just makes you wanna cry tbh.

[clevin]

What's terrible about this is that it's somehow blizzard's fault, and yet all the people in the LFR who aren't holding these afk-monkeys accountable by booting them are innocent. Players have the tools to fix this. They continuously choose not to, yet ask for more.

If only that were true."Can't kick in combat." "Can't kick right after combat". "need 3 more people to start a kick vote" "Can't kick for 20 minutes"

I get that some of this is needed, but right now there are too many kick protections for assholes. And when the asshole is a tank or healer it's often a matter of "do we want to deal with this jerk or wait 20 mins for a replacement?" If it's a DPS... a single AFK DPS doesn't matter so kicking one won't help.

The issue for DPS is that there's no floor below which you don't get loot. You could do 1k DPS and get loot. Tanks and healers are harder to measure, but... Blizzard won't do any of this because they're making money.

[Zka]

Also, pointing out your healing done in lfr (especially as disc) is a fairly poor metric of determining how good the other healers.

OH HAI he's talking about hitting #5 on the DAMAGE chart as healer. And it is indeed a good metric - it shows how poor the DPS are.

But yeah, OP is just whining, people aren't standing in fire because they got boosted. It's a different problem that has been present forever.

[kamuimac]

Part of the power creep issue is blizzard making numbers jump so much... when there's really no need for it. People would still feel superior doing 40k if they began doing 20k because it's still more. And more is all people care about.

!

whether its true or not we should see in WoD - i personally cant wait for the tears of all those "pros" who depend on overgearing and bruteforcing through current HC and future Mythic mechanics - just cant wait for the tears and QQ "omg blizz nurf nurf cause we cant bruteforce with shiny gear cause it doesnt quadruple our dps each tier"http://www.mmo-champion.com/editpost.php?p=26120376&do=editpost

Although my personal view may not be representative. For example, there must be a reason why Blizzard suddenly went back to ToT and nerfed Horridon Ads for I believe 5th time now

it really doesnt show anything expet for how terribly fucked up was the initial difficulty of it even with all the hc raiders saying how easy it was if they felt they need to nerf 1 boss 5 times - notice that they didnt even touch any other lfr bosses exept for horridon this time there must be a reason for it even with all this crying from freshly boosted 90 .

and on the side note - dont tell me shit its the casual players with the bossted 90 - causals dont buy frikin pre purchased shit when there is not even a clue when the premiere of game will be - most of those who bought it are the super nerdy types not the casual ones. - it might have been causals if blizzard set prices to buy it now get 50 % discount not when they upped the price by 10 $ in comparison to previous ones - i just dont buy it that its the casuals with htose boosted 90 - its the frikin self entitled childish people who always were scremaing "retards" everywhere they could in lfr while afk alt tab cause they run 10 alts weekly through it therefore they ont give rats ass as long as they are carried.

[Dreknar20]

Everytime I run a wing of LFR Im pretty sure my life expectancy is lowered by a month

[Shockzilla]

Blizzard:

I’m not going to sit here and QQ about the level 90 boost, you are a business, you need to profit to survive to keep the game that we love up and around. However, the way you have implemented this is crap.

In general I don’t think the boost to 90 is the problem and I don’t think it’s not knowning how to play a class, though there is an issue with that to a degree. The problem is what a lot of the posters have already spoken on.

1. People don’t care and don’t try they just auto attack.
2. People don’t care and try to die, I have watched people run out of their way to stand in shit and die.
3. People burst on pull to get on the DPS meters and then just go afk for the rest of the fight.
3. People will not wait for someone to explain the fight, some dip shit will pull.
4. Lots of people will not gem, enchant or reforge their gear while going through LFR.
5. The person that gets picked as Raid Lead almost never knows what the hell they are doing, won’t respond to anyone or just plain don’t give a shit.
6. People that are willing to help can never get assist to mark kill targets of players, makes it harder to get things done.
7. They ability to remove someone that is being a disrupting force is often almost imposable to implement.

[Meillquei]

I understand what the OP is saying, but I disagree that the 90 boosting has made it any worse.
LFR was already bad to begin with. Yes boosted 90s may go in ungemmed/unenchanted and not know the fights, but it was like that before there were boosted 90s.
I do agree that more should be done regarding AFKers/people that don't care.

[Smudge]

I understand what the OP is saying, but I disagree that the 90 boosting has made it any worse.
LFR was already bad to begin with. Yes boosted 90s may go in ungemmed/unenchanted and not know the fights, but it was like that before there were boosted 90s.
I do agree that more should be done regarding AFKers/people that don't care.

To the extent that LFR has become more tedious since "boost day," I would point the finger at a contingent of experienced but bored assholes who enjoy zoning into LFR to pull Maegara for an hour or two.

[Deleted]

whether its true or not we should see in WoD - i personally cant wait for the tears of all those "pros" who depend on overgearing and bruteforcing through current HC and future Mythic mechanics - just cant wait for the tears and QQ "omg blizz nurf nurf cause we cant bruteforce with shiny gear cause it doesnt quadruple our dps each tier"http://www.mmo-champion.com/editpost.php?p=26120376&do=editpost



it really doesnt show anything expet for how terribly fucked up was the initial difficulty of it even with all the hc raiders saying how easy it was if they felt they need to nerf 1 boss 5 times - notice that they didnt even touch any other lfr bosses exept for horridon this time there must be a reason for it even with all this crying from freshly boosted 90 .

and on the side note - dont tell me shit its the casual players with the bossted 90 - causals dont buy frikin pre purchased shit when there is not even a clue when the premiere of game will be - most of those who bought it are the super nerdy types not the casual ones. - it might have been causals if blizzard set prices to buy it now get 50 % discount not when they upped the price by 10 $ in comparison to previous ones - i just dont buy it that its the casuals with htose boosted 90 - its the frikin self entitled childish people who always were scremaing "retards" everywhere they could in lfr while afk alt tab cause they run 10 alts weekly through it therefore they ont give rats ass as long as they are carried.

The reason (imo) they nerfed Horridon adds once again, is cause most people just ignore them and then at the end, they overrun the raid and cause a wipe. Healers aren't dispelling, so the debuffs are rolling on the entire raid, then comes Frozen orbs, Sand traps and the mighty War God who stomps on the tanks. You actually need some strong healers to heal through that shit and you rarely have healers who can do more than 60k hps.

With the boosted 90's I believe there's been a rise in the amount of crap geared players in ToT LFR. You'd usually see a lot of SoO Flex/Normal/Heroic geared players hunting Secrets and Runestones and these players would carry the group. But with more crap geared players - many of them on a boosted 90 they have no clue on how to play - stuff like adds on Horridon just won't be killed fast enough - if at all.

Don't pretend like LFR Horridon adds needed a 5th nerf, cause that's just ridiculous. It's a L2P issue that Blizz can only counter by nerfing. And yes, I'm one of those Heroic raiders who killed Heroic Horridon pre-nerf and the only hard part was your setup as a 10 man group (you needed the right mix of classes to dispel).
People who struggled, QQ'ed about it being too hard etc. are most likely the same people who're still struggling on Heroic Galakras by now.