Celestalon on Demo tanking

[Durandro]

Warlock tanking was a bad concept to start with. Its just not balanced with the way WoW functions.

Firstly the demon is the one doing the tanking. It needs to be as survivable as any other tank. That alone causes major issues.

Then there's zero consquence to the demon dying - you can resummon it.

Then there's issues with precise positioning/facing the enemies...

Yeah, it was never a good idea. The only way it could work is if the Warlock embues themselves with demonic energy and does the actual tanking - which in of itself also causes serious issues since then you need to somehow nerf the Warlock's DPS and utilty to counter that. Its just a messy concept to begin with.

Better to spend that time balancing the tanks we already have. Which is something that still needs some work.

[Mayhem]

ahm demo tanking was never about pet tanking, or at least i hope

[Deleted]

2 things dodge and parry still exist that are just derived stats so x strength = y parry and xagi=y dodge

Also warriors,monks also get flat damage reduction see critical block, elusive brawler

Bears and dks get shields

You are also going to need a lot less dodge\parry rating to have the same effect

Blizzard and tanking community said they like active mitigation and dodge/parry are going away from gear/itemization more so they are getting some flat numbers and amounts they get from stats is not great. Simply can be fixed by giving us flat amount like what they did with critical strike from agility, simply flat 10% or make it scale with mastery like they will soon in future in WoD for each tank class. If this is no enough we could be class scaling not with parry or dodge but with armour so in tank stance you get better armour scaling (this gives us physical dmg reduction). Mastery in DA stance already is changed to flat dmg reduction which is awesome.

What do you mean by dk and bears shields ? they have same active mitigation skills as Warlock (fury ward is an absorb mechanics).

with the upcoming equipment changes locks need nothing at all, they could very well make us perma demon as tanks, merging with our voidlord or whatever and changing our gear to support a more melee style gameplay, pff keep the spells the way the look just make them melee range only and convert our spells to physical hits, a few tweeks to mitigation here and there and done

i´m pretty sure i´m missing alot here, but it´s 8 am and i may be still asleep, haven´t had a coffee yet

If you sacrifice Voidlord you get a cooldown that gives you +30% HP for 10 sec ... tanking cooldown and this is not WoD promise this is current state of game. So by giving us tanking option we would go and probably sacrifice daemon or use it as a soul link dmg sponge. Very good both ways.

Warlock tanking was a bad concept to start with. Its just not balanced with the way WoW functions.

Firstly the demon is the one doing the tanking. It needs to be as survivable as any other tank. That alone causes major issues.

Then there's zero consquence to the demon dying - you can resummon it.

Then there's issues with precise positioning/facing the enemies...

Yeah, it was never a good idea. The only way it could work is if the Warlock embues themselves with demonic energy and does the actual tanking - which in of itself also causes serious issues since then you need to somehow nerf the Warlock's DPS and utilty to counter that. Its just a messy concept to begin with.

Better to spend that time balancing the tanks we already have. Which is something that still needs some work.

Nobody is talking about pet tanking, we are talking about Demon Hunting Glyph adding to demonology a Tanking stance. More info here:

Here is mini guide on tanking (by me):
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10119772092

Also added info links and videos on the topic by other people who also did this with the best video of all times by method warlocks

Here is try to explain basics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQDJqyTYyL4

My channel (sub, like, flame my english):
https://www.youtube.com/user/theVoidyTv

[arcaneshot]

Warlock tanking was a bad concept to start with. Its just not balanced with the way WoW functions.

Firstly the demon is the one doing the tanking.

Stop right there. That alone shows you have no idea what anyone else is discussing.

[Mayhem]

snip

love the method video, thanks for your stuff too

[Deleted]

Blizzard has hinted that there will be caster tanks in Mythic raids. If you become a melee tank now, it is most likely that there will be a day when you see that caster boss X, and when the difficulty turns to Mythic you get replaced by another class, which might be a pure dps caster, for example. Instead of being the cool tank for this boss, you would only see yourself as the tank for pussymodes, and more generic style fights.

[Deleted]

I don't understand your argument we had bosses in Vanilla, TBC and Wotlk that we "tanked" but they it also could be a hunter or other class. We always had this "tanky" thing in us and with metamorphosis we could expand on the class and become real tanks.

Mythic raiding is something i will aim for but nobody says i will get to, there is a lot of things like time, skill and simply luck that i could not have. Being a off tank for 1-2 bosses in expansions is not really aim of this discussion. The aim is to open to a new thing which would be warlock tanks not in 2 row but front row of world.

I would halt before talking about Mythic for about 1-2 months until we will get information about encounters, for now i doubt we got even half of patch notes on classes and classes will undergo a deep change next 2 weeks - 4 months. Mythic could simply require you to have more than 2 tanks eg. 3... and on a mythic levle probably better than warlock to tank something in the air will be to use paladin as he has a lot of skills to make it happen and insane durability. But that is a wild guess we don't know a thing except name of this hard mode.

One thing that we always wanted to have is a caster tank. And there is no better choice both lorewise and game wise than warlock

Try to graps few things:
- Warlock tanks is not forcing anyone to become tank
- Warlock tanks are a gain for everybody because game lack tanks
- We are prepared and there is not much design balancing needed to make this work
- WoD changes to gear opened this clear state "blizzard you don't need much now!"

I don't want people to feel like the point is to lose anything, the point is to enrich the game.

[Deleted]

Tanks are not real. They are only metal boxes with a taunt button, ie. nothing like "tanky" locks.

My aim is to end your discussion of spoiling that which is tanky.

One thing that we always wanted to have is a caster tank. And there is no better choice both lorewise and game wise than warlock

...since what you discuss about, is nothing like a caster tank. You should have no problem including a spec like destro into the tank discussion if that were the case. ("Give destro some magic resistance in the next patch, oh please!")

One reason why I worry about the demo tanks, is actually that it may result in the other specs becoming more squishy, as the "tanky" could become a flavour of one spec alone. (So a demo melee tank can't spec into a dps and become a caster tank for a caster boss X)

However this is minor compared to the fact that when a caster boss is made, Blizzard will decide who is the tank for it, with very small adjustments. And it is probably going to be a pure dps caster who will tank there, because they have no variety in their gameplay that would come from other source.

- - - Updated - - -

we had bosses in Vanilla, TBC and Wotlk that we "tanked" but they it also could be a hunter or other class.

I was not sure what to say of this, history lesson -wise. For ~4 years there have been raids with "any class" playing in most of the raids, 10 or 25 man. There were no caster tank(s) during this time, but right now Blizzard hints that they will happen. And the reason is that "every class" is expected to be present in each mythic raid. So this should be the furute way to make caster tanks: from one class at a time.

[Deleted]

I have always welcomed the thought of a dedicated caster tank, or, even if this wasn't the original discussion, a specialization that uses its pet to tank. I think that doing the latter would be iffy, but the former I don't see a real problem with besides the fact that it would have to be a fourth specialization. A modification of Demonology is a common proposition, but then there would be no specialization that uses the pet for damage unless the specialization was hybridized, and seeing as they demarcated Death Knight tanking I suspect they would be very unwilling to do so. I still love the idea of it, though.

[Count Zero]

As much as it pains me to say it, I think we should agree to table the 'Lock tanking discussion for now. Dark Apotheosis isn't in WoD (as of right now), and it would be a fight with the devs just to get back the watered-down version we had, much less flesh it out. Alpha/Beta is going to last months, yes, but the earlier we get solid ideas in about how we want our class to look/play in WoD the better chance we have of actually having some influence on that process.

Don't get me wrong -- I absolutely want 'Lock tanking eventually, but I don't think it's worth the time investment to lobby for it right now. I'm more concerned about the fundamental functioning of our existing role, and I haven't seen anyone react to the changes with, "I think we're good to go, now."

[Munemasa]

gimmy a taunt and i am good to go

[Grizelda]

Will trade DA for Fel Flame back.

[Deleted]

WoW we got a full response:

T14 beta, Demo Tank preformance similar to other tanks. Nerfs came. Revert nerfs, rebalance, Demo tank live?

UI support, Active Mitigation skills, multiple cooldowns, talents with defensive benefit, glyphs with defensive benefit, an interesting defensive rotation, defensive value for all stats (that's gigantic), Vengeance, DPS tuning, mob control abilities, defensive mechanics that scale at the right rate, community understanding, etc. Warlocks are/were nowhere close to being full-fledged tanks. Sorry, it's just not the same thing. (Celestalon)


Followed by

feel like there's a similar argument for making prot a dps spec that goes beyond what one talent can do.
On the contrary, Prot Warriors have all of the DPS equivalents of those, or are getting them anyway for other reasons. (Celestalon)

At least it is clear blizzard will never make it happen and its a hard coded decision ofc also shows that Celestalon doesn't know about our active mitigation mechanics, pretty solid defensive rotation and glyphs that are designed for tanking But I will not explain this to him :-) there is no point in fighting the devs.

Also blizzard mentioned warlocks indeed are getting big nerf in WoD.

Dear Cele, never gets old, but why be any other dps when you can be warlock? And why did you guys stop game balance hotfixing?
There's a huge conversation to be had about *when* to nerf. Short answer is that nerfing warlocks would also nerf *guilds*. (Celestalon)
Instead, we think the right call is to leave them until Warlords, then fix them there. We agree that they're too strong now (Celestalon)

At least we are sure now, i'm a bit angry but i understand them they will never make any solid change to the game and just keep it like it is forever

I recon perma meta is also going away(pretty sure about this as they will nerf us hard) and after WoD we will also have another icc/dragon soul/soo 12 months of shit. So good times.

Cheers guys

[Skayth]

I am for lock tanking, if I can never be a demon hunter.

The major problem with how lock tanking was (mop beta), it was all about mitigation. We literally took no real damage. While Celestalon does have a point in most of his post, he is also false on some them.

UI support- Already in game-, Active Mitigation skills- one currently exists in the form of fury ward, but if he is talking about dodge/parry/heal mechanics, sure-, multiple cooldowns -I will take this as defensive cds, which we have 2 total,without talents, Unending Resolve and Twilight Ward-, talents with defensive benefit -Dark Regeneration, Soul Link (if u decide for either more hp or 20% transfer to demon), Sac Pact (a nice large bubble on a minute cd), and Dark bargain. Could we use more? Sure, but as it is, we actually have more (talents n defensive cds) then a bear-, glyphs with defensive benefit -Its not like you guys are milking the shit out of Unending resolve... oh wait-, an interesting defensive rotation -got me there. Beta/current is pretty shit-, defensive value for all stats (that's gigantic) -Agree. We do need more defensive stat values. Our beta/current is stack mastery and stam and be a meat shield- , Vengeance -Was the only reason people took Archimondes Vengence, but we do need a real vengence -, DPS tuning -Have u seen DA's numbers? its pretty crap -, mob control abilities -Provocation was originally a regular taunt, but u took that away-, defensive mechanics that scale at the right rate -Agree. Our Defensive mechanics need to be implemented better-, community understanding -50/50 warlocks want to tank, the ones that dont do not understand that Pures are a dying breed and simply cannot say no, when someone asks them to tank-, etc. Warlocks are/were nowhere close to being full-fledged tanks -All honesty, if you gave me permission, I could easily come up with mechanics to do it within a day (right now, based on mop numbers). Now programming it with your special ui you already have set up for creating abilities, may take two days, if even that. Internal testing mmm, a week to get it to play right. And then creation of new artwork for spells/w.e. how every long it takes a team to create a few spells. balancing? Forever since nothing in this game is truly balanced, but to a not overpowered state? a few months, with many exceptional raiders trying it out, looking over the damage taken and so on..- Sorry, it's just not the same thing -May, or may not. As it is, the full extent of glyph specs is completely unknown, as the extent we have is DA, and that is basically a meat shield. It could need a new spec, but basing things on numbers is not a very hard thing to do, yet you make it seem so hard, when in reality, it is fairly easy algebra-. (Celestalon)

Actually, I will create a concept for today, and even use complete mathematical solutions to create a new spec, as i probably do agree that it is fairly hard putting everything needed into a single glyph, unlike making a tank a dps. Ah well. To start working on the spec I go.

[Deleted]

Well prot is getting DPS spec which is something completely from "the moon" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY6insZjCfU ) but Warlock tank is something blizzard don't want.

Not sure what to think about this. But there is a lot more clunky mechanics even between tank classes.

Relsolve and mentioned by me Protection Paladin, this is a problem it doesn't buff paladins and even current model is not buffing that much paladins (only dmg output) but no defensive value, the best defensive value comes from haste...which works toward reducing GCD so you can spam faster and have better uptime for SotR.

Warrior active mitigation works based on 2 different skills. shield Block and shield barrier, with glyph of +20 more rage you could potentially hit both but usually you don't have that much rage.

Druid active mitigation is based around dodge (doge )) ) and even if you manage to keep it up close to 100% you will be hit because dodge is DR'ed. So it is essentially random when you get dmg or not.

Not mentioning monk, dk because they are both new and designed with active mitigation in mind so they kinda work well.

So there is massive disproportion in how active mitigation works and how classes benefit from it. Warlock active mitigation ability is more like modern design: dk,warrior, monk and less than odd design paladin/druid. Thats why i think celestalon didn't even try to think about this concept at all. Obviously skills are there and class can be made to work. I personally have few models in mind and can bring up the numbers.

Regarding "Demon Hunter" it is not happening now and we don't know if it will ever happen, so why you do this blizzard. I got a strong feeling that blizzard wants to "punish/nerf" warlocks after really good expansion. Maybe they feel we got too much this expansion ?

[Mayhem]

with the upcoming changes to equipment and setitems i don´t see a need for a prot dps spec

[Deleted]

with the upcoming changes to equipment and setitems i don´t see a need for a prot dps spec

I have similar feeling but guess what...
http://wod.wowhead.com/talent#wy2|

+ gives you http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=38630 ... remember times of throwdown ? it probably has come back to life.


Shield Charge
8 - 25 yd range
Instant
Requires level 70
Charges an enemy, knocking it back and inflicting normal damage plus 3325 to 3675.

Gladiator Resolve is only for Prot warriors just to make it 100% clear.

Blizzard think is cool to make prot dps fun fun but lock tank is not fun logic

Or maybe it is a form of preparation for Warrior Class quest that will lead to amazing "green fire" for warriors Who knows...

[Jessicka]

Prot Warriors already have a 'DPS rotation' for when they outgear and no longer require to maximise their active mitigation, there really isn't any more work to do beyond rebalancing numbers, which is pretty much all the talent does when it replaces abilities.

[Deleted]

Prot Warriors already have a 'DPS rotation' for when they outgear and no longer require to maximise their active mitigation, there really isn't any more work to do beyond rebalancing numbers, which is pretty much all the talent does when it replaces abilities.

U sure ? because... Warlock already have a tanking spec for when they outgear the content....

Prot warrior is not a dps spec and all this will make weird is PvP when prot warriors will own other people. Knockback, Charge, proper DMG and good survival...oh and spell reflect. Hmmm.... for reals you think Gladiator Stance is a better idea than Warlock tank i think not. ?

This will be
a) op in PvE or underpowered in PvE no chance to make it balanced
b) it will make PvP crazy and it will be first thing to be nerfed/disabled in 2 season

(ofc that is my prediction because 30% dmg reduction in PvP ain't OP with proper dmg and a lot of movement and cc.)

[Jessicka]

No, Warlocks don't have a tanking spec. They have a glyph that affords some half assed defensive improvements built around an archaic model of tanking. The spec itself would be much better served in PvP by having the Glyph cut and having its baseline abilities balanced properly without worrying about turtle mode so people can play the spec as a damaging spec.

I'm ambivalent about Gladiator stance, I play a Prot Warrior and honestly it functions just fine as a DPS spec if you're hitting Heroic Strike instead of Shield Block (okay not in terms of damage, but that's all). Whether the control and survivability need toning down for PvP, I have no idea but Fury and Arms Warriors seem to have all the same toolkit in that regard anyway.