MoP dereased the numer of Tanks and Healers, and WoD will do so even more ?

[TheWindWalker]

Uh, what? I never see the tanks getting bitched at unless they're legitimately terrible. It's always the healers and low DPS taking the brunt of the abuse.

And I have. The issue is "legitimately terrible" starts at "low geared" (That tank has half the HP of the other one! We wiped so kick him!) and goes all the way to "doesn't know the fight intimately already." (Did he just ask for advice? We got a shit tank, kick him!)

[Deleted]

I think if tanks really will deal a lot more damage without vengeance we should see an increase because people tend to equip and main what they use for questing and such.

[Traveler Voltin]

And I have. The issue is "legitimately terrible" starts at "low geared" (That tank has half the HP of the other one! We wiped so kick him!) and goes all the way to "doesn't know the fight intimately already." (Did he just ask for advice? We got a shit tank, kick him!)

this is pretty much what i see when i see the tanks get yelled at.

[Super Kami Dende]

And I have. The issue is "legitimately terrible" starts at "low geared" (That tank has half the HP of the other one! We wiped so kick him!) and goes all the way to "doesn't know the fight intimately already." (Did he just ask for advice? We got a shit tank, kick him!)

The best way I found to avoid other people blaming anything on me as the tank, Is I just assume I'm doing my job and everyone else's in runs.

Many times in WoTLK/Cata/MoP have I tanked and topped the DPS and Healing at the same time. Even had many times where healers/DPS would die to their own stupidity (Mechanics/High Damage AoE/Fire hurr derping) and I was able to solo kill the bosses.

In MoP I solo'ed all the dungeon heroics in 5.2 on my BrM just for the lulz.

I rarely get bitched at, except for pulling to fast.

[Xjev]

The only serious role I would play in this game is healing, no matter what. I spec unoptimized dps for solo and shit

[Seditian]

This thread is overlooking a new change.

Gear will change depending on your spec - This will encourage people to be whatever they want. Then they can also easily switch to a dps role to do their solo activities.

That still doesn't properly fix the fact that Hybrids get shafted, as always. I have to drag around five gear sets currently to properly do everything. I have to keep 2 sets in my bank because I don't have enough room, and no I'm not some cheapskate with 20 slot bags, they're all 28 slot bags. Blizzard can easily give us so many quality of life improving changes, but they just don't bother with it. Yet still ask themselves: "Gee whiz, why are tanks and healers so rare?".

[Firebert]

Is there enough evidence that such changes would be healthy for the game?

Only when the lack of tanks becomes a serious problem in WoW (which it isn't). Blizzard would have to step in somehow to either make tanking more attractive, or, failing that, putting in a system that relieves the problem (even if it would be temporary).

What's the % of players that would point that as dumbing down?

Counter: what's the percentage of players that would quit because there's no way to get groups because of the lack of tanks? The game is designed with dumbing down in mind (compare Vanilla to now), that should not be a problem. The bottom line is what Blizzard have always cared about; if the lack of one of the trinity causes damage to that bottom line they will act on it.

What about players that like Tanking and Healing nowadays?

What about them? With them nothing changes, without them bots take their place.

How would that impact subscribers?

Increase for the casual end (quicker LFRs) and no impact on the upper end. The reason it's not being done now is that there's no urgent need for it.

How would that shape community?

Tanks and healers would start feeling replacable (just like DPS are right now). Tanks would continue to leave the role if they feel like they hold the majority of the responsibility; it is on Blizzard to change that.

Is it a needed changed?

It is approaching "needed". It is not a dire enough situation yet.

Should all games adapt to that or just some?

Games adapt to positive changes. It's on Blizzard to make it as positive as possible, and hence as successful as possible. Other games will adapt to it if they feel it conductive to improving their bottom line (see other games incorporating LFD into their games).

Why WoW should?

Because WoW is on the forefront of MMO development by virtue of subscription amount.

If WoW did, why not Tera?

What's a Tera?

[stomination]

This is how I see things right now and how I think (read fear) things will be in WoD.

The gameplay of Mists of Pandaria had some influence on the decreasing number of Tanks and healers because:
- Daily questing is most efficient as dps
- Scenario's favour (mostly) 3x dps
- There were very few 5 man dungeons between 86-90
- Hardly any reason to run heroic 5 man dungeons at 90
- Playing a Tank in LFR puts a target on you for frustrated people.

Now in WoD, I expect less reason to play as a tank or healer because:
- All of the things mentioned for MoP
- No flying, so world pvp will ensue and you will quest as dps.
- EVEN FEWER dungeons! (yet 5 more levels to bridge).
- You will have to fight for nodes/herbs more often because you can't fly (or fly away).
- Giant world pvp zone will not favour Tanking in general.

I know that we have double specs and that gear will be more usuable outside of main specs, but I still don't think that people will tank or heal because it's outside of their "comfort zone", and not unimportant either they might not be good at it because they don't regurlary play it because of the reasons above.

I will still play my Tank simply because I love tanking. But I gotta say, my current experiences and the foresight in WoD worry me somewhat.

1. Getting dps gear isnt that hard.
2. Getting dps gear isnt that hard.
3. That doesnt affect tanks only.
4. Once again doesnt affect tanks only.
5. Taking anything that ppl in LFR seriously is your own problem. Half the people in LFR barely know how to do their own job. Grow some thicker skin.

Wod
1.All of the things above.
2. Oh noes...you have to quest with that easy to get dps gear. Man you should ask how questing is as some healers. SLOWER
3. Once again not a tank issue.
4. I dont see what this has to do with tanks. But you fought over nodes and herbs with flying mounts as well. The thing that helped is when they put a shit ton of nodes out there which messed up the prices on ah.
5. Tanks are able to kill ppl just fine.

[Saybel]

I honestly hope all self-heals on tanks disappear. Or at least 75% of their potency. Our DK healer (heh) can easily get to 300k HPS on Malkorok, it's ridiculous. DK tanks should be the only tanks that have really potent heals (300k HPS is too high, though), other ones shouldn't.

If your DK took Death Strike off his/her bars and just spammed DPS it would still do 200k HPS...

That is because Bloodworms, a mechanic that overheals 90% of the time, cannot overheal on Malkorok, not because DK selfhealing is out of line.

[Deleted]

no reason to start crying allready - Ill BET that there will be healers and tanks enough in WoD - and if there aint, i bet some people will roll those to avoid the long queues in LFR - problem fixed!

[Clrg]

Tank isnt a noob friendly role, you can easily spot when a player is new when he is trying to tank something, at least in Wrath you only concern was hold aggro because your passive mitigation and avoidance will do the rest for you, now you need to push way more buttons, track more stuff, if you dont play the active mitigation game you take a lot of damage, as a healer who raid in hc is a nightmare when you have to heal a tank that have a hilarious low active mitigation uptime.

[Deleted]

Go to a PvE Server then ?

[arel00]

To be honest with the removal of Parry, Dodge, Hit and Expertise, what do you think tanks will be wearing? The answer is DPS gear and tanking jewelry. It's not that hard to collect 3-4 items for another spec, when practically everything is shared. Even now there are necks, rings and trinkets that are shared between tanks and DPS. This is especially true for monks, druids and paladins, that makes 3 out of 5 classes already minimizing the gear problem.
Make 6.0 changes go live, and I swear I'll never ever swap gear between Retri and Prot saved for weapons. If it wasn't for the tier bonuses I'd already be tanking with the same items, bar one trinket.
I expect these changes to make picking up a notoriously shorter-queued role much, much easier.

[Traveler Voltin]

To be honest with the removal of Parry, Dodge, Hit and Expertise, what do you think tanks will be wearing? The answer is DPS gear and tanking jewelry. It's not that hard to collect 3-4 items for another spec, when practically everything is shared. Even now there are necks, rings and trinkets that are shared between tanks and DPS. This is especially true for monks, druids and paladins, that makes 3 out of 5 classes already minimizing the gear problem.
Make 6.0 changes go live, and I swear I'll never ever swap gear between Retri and Prot saved for weapons. If it wasn't for the tier bonuses I'd already be tanking with the same items, bar one trinket.
I expect these changes to make picking up a notoriously shorter-queued role much, much easier.

armor is the new tanking stat i guess.

[Tinary]

Honestly, I do not see the point, there should be more DPS than healers/tanks, cause you cant just bring 2 dps and 4 healers and 4 tanks to the raid. (would be fun, but you cant). The reason why there are few tanks are cause everyone likes to see big numbers, whether its a DPS or a healer. Not to mention the fact that other people depend on you. Altho, imo, WoD would have more tanks and healers than MoP, why? Cause the start of the x-pack, people play the roles the guild needs, at the end of x-pack they change to DPS. First time we try'd to get out 10man raiding going in MoP start, I had 5 tanks and 12 healers and only 2 DPS to take

[Deleted]

Removing instant heals is a turn-off.

[MrExcelion]

Tanks undergo a much higher level of scrutiny in LFR and are one of the first to be kicked if anything goes wrong, which probably isn't helping

[Tapaj]

All classes and specs for PVE are basically the same...

Tanks - 3-6 Attacks + active mitigation + Cds + Placement
Healers - 4-5 Heals + manage mana + Cds + Placement
Dps - 4-6 attacks + Cds + Trinket Proc management + Placement

Now yes this is a rudimentary bundling of each class, and for the sake of arguing one can say, "Tanks have it hard, they have to...blah blah blah" or "healers have to ...blah blah blah" or "Dps have to.... you get the picture.

If you are at least half aware of wtf is going on in a raid etc. you are ahead of the curve of many cry babies who think any class is hard.

Go ahead an argue gear; everyone at some point didn't have the gear to be awesome in your eyes.


Now with the changes coming with WoD. I welcome them. WoW has been stale for a while, and those who excel at their respective classes will succeed whereas those who don't will suffer; its with this why many of the, "Instant Gratification" players will fail, rolling the new flavor of the tier player.

I play a Rdruid, have since Early Wrath as my main. I am not the best not even close but I rolled with the changes and adapted and sit at 570.

I also play a Prot Paladin, only since this tier, not great by any means, and he sits at 562

I also play a Sv/Bm Hunter, on and off since BC, mostly PVP, leveled him this tier, he sits at 559.

I'll Close with this...no one likes changes when they finally got a solid grasp of their respective class, and as mentioned before, either you adapt...or unsub and stfu lol.

[Theodon]

I believe the reason for the reduction in tanks and healers is due to the content that is used to measure the levels of tanks and healers in the game, and also what people want from this expansion and how they go about playing the content toward the twilight months of an expansion.

Toward the end of an expansion I find that many people tend to just want an easier time getting through SoO for the Nth time, and trying to achieve that as a tank or healer is just not going to happen. You can take it easy as a DPS as there isn't as much demand on giving it your all and paying full attention during a run, so the tank and healing role slowly starts to see a decline in how many people play it as people increasingly feel the need to take it easy. Every individual has a point where they think "meh, cba to tank this time"

We also look at dungeon content when we see how many tanks and healers are currently playing, which is where you would want things to just be over and done with so you can finally get that item you've been after for months. So why do it as a tank or a healer if you want to take the easier and less stressful route? It does involve people being shitty to tanks and healers, but I believe that playing the roles themselves is also a bit more stressful for the person involved, so being a tank or a healer is the first thing to go when someone has reached a point in how much effort they can bring themselves to put in to the game; some line that, when crossed, sees them queue as dps.

I would imagine that looking at a graph showing tank and healer population over the course of an expansion would show some peaks and valleys that correspond to major patches. I, at least, think that this would be the case. It's not as simple as people just quitting because people are arseholes to tanks and healers in particular, but it is something that contributes to the erosion over time of people's desire to make an effort.

[Museigen]

I haven't done dungeons in forever on my main, Blood DK. New job means I miss 1/5 weeks of raiding so on that week I tried doing dungeons for valor. I've decided that my dps offspec can either wait to be upgraded or upon entering a dungeon I pretend I'm soloing and then solo the dungeon. Out of 6 dps and 2 healers from the two groups only a single dps was active for more than half the time. Another was active for about half the time, the rest were either afk entirely from the start or moved enough to follow the group then stopped. The first healer threw a fit I didn't wait for them to load in before starting trash despite me being a 570 blood dk, I didn't even lose a point of health before they loaded. The second healer was completely new and said so upon loading into the dungeon and failed to save a dps who stood in fire until he died. The dps vote kicked the healer insulting them with some colorful language.

To the point of the thread, I don't think blizzard can do anything that will effect the game more than the players who play it will. It could be the best game ever and it would be a terrible experience with the people I've met since I did dungeons again. It could also be a pretty crappy game but still be fun enough with a group of friendly people, of course a nice happy medium would be a good game without crappy people. Blizzard can only change the game, not the people and from what I've seen, by far and wide, the people are the bigger problem.