Morbid Feedback: Soul Reaper

[ro9ue]

I don't find Soul Reaper as interesting as its name sounds and it's just an extra button that doesn't offer compelling gameplay. Redistribute that damage back into our main attacks sort of how Frost had that below x% shit hits harder imo.

If there was a cool soul reaping mechanic or animation, sure, but there's not. Seems like they just added it for the sake of adding a new ability in an expansion.

[Praxis]

I've played DW Frost exclusively this expansion. 576 ilvl at the moment, in a 12/14H guild on Kel'Thuzad. Had a few high ranks earlier in the expansion, but not much that's noteworthy at the moment. I pretty much exclusively PvE, with the exception of a battleground or two here and there, so no real PvP experience to speak of.

My experience with Soul Reaper in raids has been mostly neutral/negative. I don't feel that it has had an impact on my DPS that's at all noticeable with the exception of early on, before attaining higher Mastery values.

In soloing, I've definitely had some fun with the haste effect, but I still noticed it feeling weaker and weaker as my gear improved.

I feel SR is a great idea, but doesn't fit with the current state of Frost -- it doesn't deal enough damage to be worth using, and its secondary benefits are rarely, if at all, usable in a PvE raiding environment. It just isn't something that screams "USE ME" (which is how I imagine Execute and the like to be).

[chibichibiko]

I've been primarily a blood death knight for MoP and have raided on that toon from ToT to present in a mostly normal 10-man beer league guild.

The 4pc dps tier from ToT that extended the range of SR execute to 45%, for me, was one of the most fun set bonuses of the expansion. It meant I could still get in my execute before warlocks/shadowpriests/warriors sniped the kill with their executes in dungeons/scenarios. Back at 35% and with all the advancements in gear, I only use this ability on bosses.

As a tank, using SR on adds that are a second from dying in order to gain the 'consolation prize' felt like an interesting choice that offered skill expression in ToT. Since 5.4, rune haste is quite possibly the most easy-to-overlook buff we could have on tanks that are GCD capped quite often. There's no point in harvesting SR haste on small adds in that environment, which bums me out a bit.

I don't use the glyph (has no place).

Overall, it feels like from a design perspective, SR is something tanks benefit from using, but every discussion about SR seems like it's devoted to dps specs. It no longer affects my role aside from just doing more filler damage than heart strike, which is also an ability that is used just to generate runic power for a better filler. Feels like there's a lot of ways this could be addressed, but I also don't feel like it's on anyone's priority list since it doesn't really get in the way of anything at present.

[Rothulean1]

What specs have you played?
I've played a tiny tiny bit of Blood (on Dark Shaman only). The rest of the expansion I've been purely Unholy. Current ilvl is 577.

In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been?
1.) Overall my experience with Soul Reaper has been...boring and/or frustrating. The idea of hitting a button and seeing the damage 5 seconds later doesn't feel very rewarding (and in most content, it isn't rewarding). As someone said, there's no specific graphic to indicate its on the mob and when the damage goes off, it isn't even that easy to see unless it crits.

2.) The other issue is that in challenge modes or while questing (basically anything that isn't a raid) its incredibly frustrating to try to get Soul Reaper to go off. Most of the time it doesn't because of mob hit points being low outside of raids. Having to cast Soul Reaper on a normal mob at 70% turns into this race to try to get the mob to 35% health fast enough, but not quite dead. That stops being fun quick. And I'm sure I speak for most ppl when I say that I don't even cast Soul Reaper in non-raid content anymore. Early in the expansion it didn't matter if the mob died because we got a nice haste buff. Now, the haste buff isn't even that good.

3.) The other puzzling thing is the cooldown. A rune ability having a cooldown has never made any sense at all. It's clunky and leads to weird pauses in our rotation at times.

Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

No, not at all. I have and probably always will be unholy. And it has no effect on the glyphs I use at all.

Overall, it just hasn't been a very enjoyable execute. I'd rather Soul Reaper act as a dot (or be removed completely) then have the 5 second delay. Getting it to go off in the first place is frustrating, but even if it does go off, it doesn't feel that rewarding.

[Maxweii]

-What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?

I have played (or well raided) as Unholy almost exclusively all of Mists, switching to DW Frost only for progression Spoils. I solo old content in Blood if I am feeling lazy about surviving.


-In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been? Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

For Unholy Soul Reaper was just what I wanted. It gives the spec a really powerful execute-type move. Obviously with our mastery being increased shadow damage it worked in our favor, and when we won the battle in Beta to get it to not be a death rune it made the ability even tastier. Soul Reaper with end content gear always hit for such a satisfying amount, and it filled the void of where Frost was the big number spec and gave Unholy something that had impact as well. The ability to pre-cast it say at 37% HP on the boss so that right as it hits 35% is really nice, although mistiming can net a wasted rune or an accidental hit of the ability could cause you to hit it at any HP on the boss. It's a bit strange, but overall the ability to precast it is nice. As gearing went on the 6 second CD on the ability was easier to manage, but with lower levels of rune regen it can get points where unless you game your runes right you are waiting a bit to use it again.

I won't touch upon it for DW Frost as I only played it for progression Spoils.

For Blood Soul Reaper is nice. It gives a bit of oomph, but it's not a make or break ability. It does hit much harder then a Heart Strike, but even then it didn't give a "wow" factor as much as it did for Unholy.

[scabobos]

Sure do wish it did shadowfrost damage

[Clash the DK]

I think just about everything has been covered. But, here we go...


SOUL REAPER: Arguably the coolest name for an ability in the game attached to arguably one of the worst abilities in the game. (Yes, I play Frost)

Delayed Damage Mechanic: My first problem with Soul Reaper is the fact that I "feel" like I get nothing out of the button press. 5 seconds is a long time to wait in order to get a reaction from your initial action. Did my execute hit or did my Obliterate just crit? I have no idea because I initially hit the button ages ago. There is a complete disconnect happening here.
PvP, on the other hand, does bring about a feeling in relation to Soul Reaper. It's called FRUSTRATION. Health percentages fluctuate extremely fast in PvP. This makes the use of Soul Reaper with it's 5 second delay extremely difficult to say the least.

Ability Cost: The cost seems fine for Blood and Unholy; I've had no problems when playing those specs. However, it does not jive with 2H Frost specifically. Breaking apart rune combinations that would otherwise go to the hard-hitting Obliterate does not feel good. And while it does work fine for DW Frost, it would feel so much better if SR cost an Unholy rune instead.

Damage: Damage feels good for Unholy and fine for Blood. But once again......Frost is another story. We complained in Beta that Soul Reaper needed to be Shadowfrost damage or there would be problems down the road. But it was kept pure Shadow damage. And now, here we are in the final tier not even using our brand new execute ability because the damage does not even justify the effort. It's an execute ability; Aren't these things supposed to hit hard and cause a scene?


Final Thoughts: Even a shortened 3 second delay on the damage would be a huge improvement for this ability. BUT.....I honestly feel that a delayed damage type of mechanic is not the right choice for an "execute ability". Having SR cost Death runes would work for Frost and Unholy if there was no cooldown or delayed damage mechanic associated with the ability. It would fit into the puzzle for those two specs in that scenario. Unfortunately, Blood would be left out in the rain. But, I think it's more important that the two dps specs have an execute ability that works opposed to what we have now. And finally, any ability that is intended to be used and is to be shared between Frost and Unholy needs to be either physical damage or Shadowfrost damage due to Mastery. Having Soul Reaper deal Shadow damage does not work.

[Magdalena]

-What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?

Unholy main spec and occasional tanking when called upon in addition to lots of solo content

-In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been? Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

Unholy - I know that soul reaper is a damage increase, but I don't notice it. I use it because I know that it would be a dps loss to not use it, not because it feels awesome to use it. On raid bosses, there is too much happening to notice the large numbers and out in the world, things usually die too quickly for me to make use of it. I only know that soul reaper did a lot of damage by checking recount at the end of boss encounters.

I also dislike the lack of ui element to inform you that the ability is optimal to use (and this is because it can be used at any health percentage). I had to download an addon just to be able to see health percentages to effectively use it.

In PvP, the effects are more noticable. It does feel good to have the soul reaper tick down and then explode in your enemies face, but it's also very unreliable. If the enemy just happens to heal up above 35%, then your rune is wasted and it feels lame.

If there was a glyph that caused the shadow portion of soul reaper to be applied instantly at reduced damage or increased cooldown then I would likely take it for pvp purposes, but not for pve, unless it was proven to be a dps improvement.

I do not change my talents or existing glyphs to accomodate soul reaper due to soul reaper having a six second cooldown.


For blood spec, I notice the effects of soul reaper even less than I do as unholy. If there is satisfaction to be felt from checking meters or logs as unholy spec, there is none for blood. I only pvp in blood if I ever need to be a holder of an object and the damage from soul reaper in blood spec is barely noticable and doesn't cause the feeling of satisfaction that I feel in unholy when it does a significant chunk of damage or causes a killing blow - In blood spec it does neither.

I wanted to highlight this post as a particularly salient example of good feedback. It directly answers all questions asked and brings in a personal element without straying too far off-topic. That's not to imply that there aren't other good posts in this thread- most of them are- but that this one caught my eye in particular.

[Baphomette]

i560, very casual raiding and PVP as Frost (2H; BT); mostly old content soloing and occasional pinch-hitting tank as Blood (RC)

As Frost/BT, the only time I really enjoyed SR was when I had 4T15. I have no problems using it whenever it's up, because BT, but I don't feel particularly rewarded for doing so. Shadowfrost damage would be an obvious buff, so obvious that we've been suggesting it since beta, but anything that makes SR more valuable than half an Obliterate is good as long as it doesn't get overbuffed for the other specs.

As Blood/RC, it's very easy to use instead of an HS. No complaints.

Overall, for such a thematic ability SR is a bit disappointing. Other execute-range abilities do big damage but also give some kind of resource generation/conservation. Execute gives free Overpowers. HoW gives 1 HoPo. Kill shot IS free, saving Focus. Don't really know what Dispatch does saves Energy maybe. Using SW: D on cd generates Shadow Orbs more quickly. Shadowburn saves CB cast time and generates the Mana you would have recovered during its long cast time. Drain Soul gives guaranteed Soul Shards.

Soul Reaper on the other hand is a fairly negligible damage increase in PVE that is penalized by its wind-up time and dispel vulnerability in PVP, and the only time it gives resources is if the target dies before it does damage... which is largely irrelevant on boss fights. It is usable from 35% unlike the 20% of most executes, but because it is relatively low damage this scarcely matters. It is tempting to suggest it would be better balanced as a <20% ability that hits harder than it currently does, but it is awkward enough to use in PVP as it is. Off the top of my head, I would rather see something like this:

Strikes an enemy for 130% weapon damage and afflicts the target with Soul Reaper, dealing X Shadowfrost damage over 5 sec. If the target is below 35% health when the effect ends, it will deal Y additional Shadowfrost damage and increase the Death Knight's haste by 2% (stacking) for 15 sec. If the enemy dies before this effect triggers, the Death Knight gains 50% haste for 5 sec.

Agree with other poster/s that the default UI needs something to show targets in execute range.

[Olrox]

Lotta buzzwords going around in this thread - "clunky" and whatnot - not helpful.

I've raided from T14 to heroic SoO as every spec this expansion; most extensively as Frost and Unholy but I've tanked my share as well.

Soul Reaper has been dragged through the mud in this thread already - which is exactly what I was planning to do so I'm not sure what else I can say but I'll lay out my overall thoughts anyway.

I think Soul Reaper is just a mangled, deformed and ultimately mis-begotten ability how it appeared in the game.

Soul Reaper was added so far as I can tell to go with Blizzard's giving every class some kind of execute; they just happened to give us an unbelievably shitty one compared to the grandmother herself - Execute.

It's already been said that Soul Reaper just feels crappy to press - you get no immediate satisfaction for it and the cost is more of an annoyance than an actual payment; Execute feels like it costs me something and I'm ok with that - I'll pay up, considering how strong it is - I feel like I GET something for paying that rage.

Soul Reaper eats one rune and its initial damage is trash (intentionally, of course - can't have it being a one-rune wonder for Fr/Bl and can't have it supplanting SS for Uh) and the fact that it uses an "eruption" style is also just underwhelming given the damage SR is capable of; even with unholy's mastery scaling it I just don't feel that same rush when I use it compared to when I execute on my warrior - I don't like Hammer of Wrath but I still think it works better than Soul Reaper does.

I feel like Soul Reaper just won't work unless they fundamentally change it (and again, I think PvP balance probably affects this so that will contribute to Soul Reaper being lackluster in PvE and vice versa) to something with more oomph, lower usable range and greater cost.

I think something akin to a stacking mechanic would be best; it costs one rune or some amount of RP and you have to land three of them in PvP or five in PvE and it does a substantial burst at maximum stacks and it's shadowfrost damage; I don't see any other way to give it the same satisfaction as other executes.

Alternatively, I'd say they could just make it hit substantially harder but add either a second rune to its cost or make it the only ability that eats a rune and some amount of runic power at the same time - I'd be willing to pay more resources to get a stronger, better execute that isn't just a purple/blue-text version of the warrior's iconic ability.

[CausalXXLinkXx]

Please remove soul reaper

[Deleted]

What specs have you played?
90% of the time unholy, and the rest is testing frost and blood. Casual full normal mode pugs as pve and 2.1k 2v2 at best in pvp pretty casually too.

In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been?
1.) To begin with, I love soul reaper. Its probably my favourite dk spell. Satisfying button to press and see almost 1m crits later. As unholy it seems to fit your rotation really nicely, but like other people have said, as 2h frost it doesnt feel all that good. I love how mastery buffs the damage of soul reaper so you have the option to try to make it get bigger crits. I even like the part of the spell where the damage is delayed. I think its a great execute in both pve and pvp. I agree it can be annoying to try to make it hit something with low health by applying it early and hoping the target will fall below 35% before soul reaper goes off. In pvp thats more fun for me because of the great reward from succeeding in it. Also works nicely with necrotic strike to try to prevent your opponents health from going up.

The haste part is kind of ok for wasting a soul reaper but the speed glyph I find useless most of the time.

Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

Somewhat. Since cataclysm I have liked unholy more than frost. And im not that much into tanking. Though soul reaper might have made unholy even more interesting for me over frost. The only thing soul reaper does have little effect on is my talent choice in pve. In pvp blood tap is a must really but I like to pick it up for pve too. I probably wouldn't if it didn't help to get soul reaper rune back every time you need it without having to sit on runes or wait for them to come back.

[Nangz]

Little positive feedback based on responses read from others. While others find SR less satisfying with regards to the "big hit" when compared to other abilities, I find the opposite, at least for unholy.

Unholy's, wet noodle but frequent, scourge strikes are a great contrast when you soul reaper for 3 or 4 times the damage. Though I very much can understand complaints that SR doesn't feel fun because of its comparison to hard hitting nukes like Obliterate.

[Deleted]

I kind of like soul reaper in general, it can be a reward or an annoyance depending on when you apply it. The rune cost can be a bit of a pain but i suppose that comes with the territory.

I've never used it as blood don't even have it on my bars. If I was playing at a higher level then maybe I would use it for the extra DPS or if I was running with runic corruption which I never do (not quite sure if the haste buff would affect this and if it doesn't it should), but at my level of play its just a bit meh, although i may change my mind if I found out it does nasty damage with vengeance. If the buff was say mastery for blood instead of haste then I might be more inclined to use it, there's plenty of bosses that get x% increased damage below x% of health that is in SR range. I'd add an extra dimension for those fights and for optimal blood shield usage.

As frost I don't really like it. If they changed the damage to Shadowfrost I think it would synergise better with the spec in general. Just imagine how fun it would be with a 10 stack of the 2pc and then using soul reaper. At the moment for me I know it is doing good but it doesn't give the feedback an execute type ability should do. When I hit execute on a warrior it hits damn hard and feels like an execute, whereas soul reaper just happily ticks away and you don't even notice it unless it crits.

Unholy's, wet noodle but frequent, scourge strikes are a great contrast when you soul reaper for 3 or 4 times the damage. Though I very much can understand complaints that SR doesn't feel fun because of its comparison to hard hitting nukes like Obliterate.

I don't really mind that its not as crazy as an oblit or FS, i'd just like it to feel like an execute, a change to Shadowfrost/Frost damage in frost spec could fix that. Hell i'd even take a longer cd on it for more upfront damage or stronger dot aspect to it as frost.

[nazuvious]

-What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?

Unholy and very reluctantly DW Frost

-In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been? Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

PvE Experience - All heroic content cleared of current expansion

Unholy – I found it easy to weave in Soul Reaper into my rotation with Blood Tap as I could bank charges and Tap when needed to fire off a SR. With Runic Corruption however, I had to be more conscience of rune status as it could throw off the rune regen sequence when used too aggressively. Since my gemming / reforging setup is for DW Frost as well (too lazy/poor to have another set), I tended to run heavy in mastery as opposed to the more contemporary setup of being Crit heavy, my SR's would hit harder but, it was hard to appreciate that fact in the grand scheme of things. The meta game of applying SR pre 35% was probably the only real challenge of using an otherwise hard hitting but bland button. The delayed detonation and CD of SR makes it hard to enjoy it when compared to other Executes.

DW Frost – HB spamming and in the midst of that checking to see if my AP was at the breakpoint for a HB vs SR decision wasn't very fun, I found my usage of SR to be very low as DW Frost due to the frantic nature of the playstyle, did I lose out on DPS? Possibly. Did I care enough to miss it while hitting HB? No.

I do not change my talents or existing glyphs to accommodate soul reaper nor does it impact the spec I play

[Deleted]

-What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?

All 3 in PvP & PvE (UH and Blood mostly)

-In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been?

I find it difficult to use. The 5 sec delay means the ability hardly "detonates" its damage on anything except high HP mobs or boss fights.

Standard mobs die too quickly when soloing.

In pvp HP pools either get healed too fast or the target dies before detonation. The "execute" also being dispellable doesn't encourage usage in pvp over other skills (such as necrotics with Death Runes).

I'd rather have an immediate hard hitting button for a "finish him" ability, no delay.

-Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

No it hasn't. I don't use any glyphs or focus my spec around it. I will often try to use it in combat but more often than not the rune is wasted on anything outside of fighting Elites and Boss fights.

[Challenge]

Played all specs at heroic raiding level. Mainly unholy and blood.

Blood - Its pretty good, replaces the wet noodle heart strike for something hard hitting, especially if you can game some vengeance ( I had almost 2 million soul reaper crits on garrosh). Burn phase with dancing rune weapon and 2x soul reaper is also really good.

Unholy- Again, really good, big upgrade from scourge strike, scales with mastery is a plus too.

DW frost- Eh. Doesnt really feel worthwhile pressing, it does SLIGHTLY more damage than a howling blast, not even enough to notice a dps gain. Plus howling blast cleaves, is magical (can't be parried) and scales with the 2p t16. Could use a tweak (shadowfrost damage??) to make it worthwhile pressing imo.

2h frost- Completely clashes with the rotation of obliterate. And again, it was only really worthwhile pressing in ToT when it benefited from killing machine.

Overall: I feel like its a good ability, I like having a execute that is unique from the other ones in game. But could use some tweaks interacting with frost, if it was to stay available to all specs.

Also, for PvP the 5 second delay AND having it as a magical dispelable debuff makes it awkward to use. I know this isn't a wishlist thread, but a 4 second delay with the same cooldown would be more feasible imo.

[Rothulean1]

I don't really mind that its not as crazy as an oblit or FS, i'd just like it to feel like an execute, a change to Shadowfrost/Frost damage in frost spec could fix that. Hell i'd even take a longer cd on it for more upfront damage or stronger dot aspect to it as frost.

I agree. The damage of soul reaper, at least for unholy, is fine. But it doesn't "feel" like an execute, IMO. The delay on it and the damage breakdown (a 120 or 130% weapon strike followed by a big shadow damage portion) just doesn't feel right.

[Schizoide]

My feeling is that's more of a cosmetic issue. The damage is fine for Unholy if you notice it happening.

The explosion needs a cool graphical effect, and perhaps it could have its base damage lowered but changed to always crit so it pops up in scrolling combat text. That autocrit could use the warlock Soul Fire mechanic, where its damage is then increased by your crit percentage so it scales with gear. Both abilities have "soul" in the name, so thematically that makes sense.

Do that and change to shadowfrost damage and we're getting somewhere.

[Deleted]

-What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?

Almost exclusively Unholy, bar some specific fights as DW frost, and having blood as an offspec for soloing/3 tank fights and absences, so I'll just comment on how I think it feels for UH.

-In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been? Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

For Unholy it's been great, especially now we're late in the tier, and expansion, and stacked on mastery. I know our crits are nothing compared to some classes but it is nice, as unholy, to finally see something (bar the pathetic weapon strike portion) hitting like freight train.

The 'great' feeling is, however, due to setting up MSBT so that I can specifically see my DoT ticks and crits right in front of my face to give it exactly that. Also having to set up a weak aura so that I remember to keep using SR, in the fashion of our other procs. These UI enhancements help to make it 'feel' much more like an execute and prior to having them, T14 and partly T15, the ability did feel very lacklustre. And this would be my major issue, like said many times before, on our UI and the visual effect of the ability is poor. I know it's not a wishlist thread, however I would like to see the ability on the boss. Whispy souls surrounding the target for the first few 'ticks' or seconds, then before the ability runs out (final second) the souls go within the target causing a shadowy explosion (you might be able to tell I don't have a very creative mind).

The only glyph I use would be when farming mobs/soloing old content trash, I then us the SR glyph just because I'm going to use my UH rune on something and that speed boost isn't too bad. However outside of that I see little use of the glyph.