Tinker Discussion Thread

[Florena]

Does he have the tinker ability to become the tank? Then yes he does have the hammer tank on his back because it's the backpack that folds out into the tank.

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You seem to be arguing against tinkers, this argument enough has no real logic behind it bar "I dislike tinkers"

There really is no sound argument against tinkers being a class, only minor annoyances from people who cannot understand class themes and how professions are reflected in the world.

I'm not against tinkers (so long as the 'silly' elements are kept in check) but I am against people claiming that Tinkers are the 'only' option blizzard could go with for the next class and dismissing all other ideas out of hand. Not saying all tinker fans do this but some in this thread certainly have.

In reality though, there isn't at present a distinction between engineers and tinkers. Tinker is even a subset of engineering skills where you enhance your armor. Blizzard could create a difference if they made a tinker class, but at present there isn't really one except npcs are able to take it farther than players currently can, unlike say enchanting where there are different schools of arcane magic and enchanting is one of them, while mage player spells fall under something else. The only real difference is in terms of scale, a tinker is a more powerful engineer in the terms of what players are asking for in the class, while a mage is not just a more powerful enchanter, those are two different schools of arcane magic.

They certainly could make a tinker class if they want to, but I think it would be difficult to do so without A. infringing on the identity of the profession which has been around since vanilla and B. keeping the 'silly' elements toned done, like the robo arms coming off your backpack. The silly elements of brew master were quite enough for me I'd rather not see another repeat of that, but that's just me.

[fixx]

That's no different than using a bulldozer to move a tree. Hence is why you can sell a shrink ray to someone else.

That is using technology to fight bad-ass monsters, which is exactly what your theme of tinker was.

Maybe instead of suggesting others go look up the meaning of theme perhaps you should take your own advice?

Yet another piss-poor strawman argument...

And there are heroic engineers. They're called Tinkers, and they're not utilizing the engineering profession, since the profession is too weak to meet their heroic needs.

...before we get back to semantics instead of going anywhere even close to the theme.

Yes there is. You're just too blind and biased to acknowledge it.

I already proved your theme for tinker and Blizzard's theme for engineer are exactly the same with slightly different wording you twisted into semantic arguments.

Are you looking at what you're typing? You're saying that Teriz isn't talking like an "adult", yet you called him an idiot, and you called him illiterate, along with other petty insults.

If he can't read what I write, he's illiterate by the very definition of the word. And he has proved quite many times today as being unable to read what others write either by ignoring things that would break his word view or using strawman arguments for intentional misreading of the original text. I don't see that as an insult but accepting facts.

[Sukhoi]

Guild wars 2 has engineer class...just a friendly reminder.

[Florena]

Guild wars 2 has engineer class...just a friendly reminder.

It also has mesmers and necromancers, so what? Diablo 3 has Demon Hunters and witch doctors. Doesn't really have any affect on WoW.

[Drilnos]

You forgot to mention Ulduar one of the most amazing raids ever but no, it isn't equal at all. Technology is a rather minor part of the WoW lore. I never said it was nonexistent. Stop putting words into other people's mouth. Arguing magic and technology have equal coverage in WoW is laughable. They just don't. WoW is largely a fantasy-based universe with some overlaps (it doesn't take itself too serious and borrows from pop culture and others).

The Warcraft universe is the only one where the orcish horde was an alien invasion. The lore is thick with sci-fi tropes. The airships and the spaceships and the robots and techno-cities and the Titanic facilities are not their only representation, but merely the most visible. In other places standard fantasy magic dominates. In most places there is some mix of the two, inextricably linked. All of these elements put together are what make Warcraft what it is.

What's the main theme of Warcraft? It isn't magic or technology. It's something to do with war and the heedless cycles of revenge. Magic and technology are in there too, wending their way through a veritable snake's nest of themes, sometimes combined, sometimes at cross purposes. Everyone's interested in a different subset of them. But as it stands the only representation this particular facet gets is one profession. Heroic fantasy buffs have access to eleven classes and fourteen professions. The impact of technology on the world might well be lesser than the impact of magic, but dammit man, it's not that much less.

[Ielenia]

It's probably the same guy trying to spread his idea inside people's mind. It's not popular, it's just the same topic being bumped more often.
I don't even like it and we have enough classes for now.

It's amusing how Teriz keeps changing his avatar several times during this thread's lifetime. It almost feels like he wants to pose as different people.

You ever stop to think that maybe I have a lot of free time and just enjoy arguing with other people?

People who 'enjoy arguing with others' for the sake of argument do not insult other people or arguments participating in the discussion, so forgive me if I don't really believe those words of yours.

Actually it doesn't, since the Tinker hero has a completely different ability set than the profession, and the hero preceded the profession.

There is no Tinker in WoW, so the profession precedes the hero. But if you want to get technical and consider all the Warcraft games, engineering still precedes the Tinker hero because there was engineering back in Warcraft 2, thanks to submarines and flying machines.

Theme has nothing to do with game mechanics or classes? You do understand that abilities are assigned to classes based on theme right? You do understand that classes are differentiated based on theme correct?

Which proves game mechanics are dependant on theme and concept, unlike you claimed. Theme and lore trump game mechanics.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Hunter/page29
About 600 cared about Tinkers in that poll.
Enjoy. [/QUOTE]
A poll created back in August 2013 vs a poll created February 2014... yeah, I'll go with the most recent one to gauge a tinker's 'popularity'.

[url]http://www.wowwiki.com/Runemaster[url]
Picture of a Runemaster:
[img]http://images.wikia.com/wowwiki/images/1/16/TaurenRunemasterColor.jpg[img]
Again, this thread would go a lot smoother if people knew what they were talking about.

And here is an example of what I said earlier: you don't like arguing with people, you like insulting them, demeaning them.

And the only thing in that picture I see connecting them to monks are the fist weapons. But, then again, rogues and shamans use that, so the 'connection' is flimsy at best. Monks don't use runes, and are not arcane spellcasters, so any kind of comparison you try to draw between runemasters and monks is doomed to failure.

Is that why both the Monk and DK had abilities and themes from WC3?

That's because the Monks and DKs themes were not completely absorbed by other classes or professions. If we had a necromancer class, that would have made Death Knights nearly impossible to be implemented.

And I've answered it a half dozen times;
Engineering profession: A crafter/tradesman who crafts technology-based items for personal use or sale.
Tinker class: A hero who uses technology to protect allies, and defeat enemies.

My character also uses technology to protect allies and defeat enemies. Your argument has been debunked.

For all intents and purposes technology in WoW is equal to magic in Wow.

Wrong. Everytime magic is pitted against technology, magic always won. Oh, and the Exodar is a magic vessel that crosses the Nether. The Dark Portal is a magic portal that crosses worlds.

Any dictionary will disagree with you and have those other way around. Tinker is an amateur engineer.

Not to mention it's rather dumb calling a 'Grandmaster' a simple amateur, right?

[Teriz]

It'd be odd if a tinker didn't have engineering since it'd be natural result of being a tinker. I agree with you enchanting is odd in that regard but every game designer makes a mistake which isn't easily reversed (ie. removing enchanting). Lets not make the problem worse. And, its questionable if its as odd as a tauren who didn't pick herbalism.

How has Mages not being automatic experts in Enchanting been a "problem" that has adversely affected the game?

You forgot to mention Ulduar one of the most amazing raids ever but no, it isn't equal at all. Technology is a rather minor part of the WoW lore. I never said it was nonexistent. Stop putting words into other people's mouth. Arguing magic and technology have equal coverage in WoW is laughable. They just don't. WoW is largely a fantasy-based universe with some overlaps (it doesn't take itself too serious and borrows from pop culture and others).

Actually I did mention it when I mentioned ancient technological facilities in Northrend and Uldum, but whatever. The point is that technology is all over WoW, and by all accounts its just as powerful as magic. Unless you want to seriously argue that the Mages of Dalaran and Magylos are more powerful than the Titans who use technology.

The engineering profession covers it more than enough as far as I am concerned.

Well that's your opinion. The fact of the matter is that a player cannot raid using only Engineering items for Tank/Heal/DPSing. Thus there's no way that the Engineering profession covers the space of a technology class.

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That is using technology to fight bad-ass monsters, which is exactly what your theme of tinker was.

No, that is helping someone else fight a bad-ass monster, since Shrink Ray doesn't kill anything, it just makes it smaller.

Not that anything in Engineering can kill anyway....

[Ielenia]

How has Mages not being automatic experts in Enchanting a problem that has adversely affected the game?

Because 'Enchanting' is a school of magic adventuring mages do not learn, instead focusing on other schools. It doesn't work with technology. At all.

Actually I did mention it when I mentioned ancient technological facilities in Northrend and Uldum, but whatever. The point is that technology is all over WoW, and by all accounts its just as powerful as magic. Unless you want to seriously argue that the Mages of Dalaran and Magylos are more powerful than the Titans who use technology.

Wrong. Every time technology was pitted against magic, technology lost. Yes, that includes Titan technology.

[Florena]

How has Mages not being automatic experts in Enchanting been a "problem" that has adversely affected the game?



Actually I did mention it when I mentioned ancient technological facilities in Northrend and Uldum, but whatever. The point is that technology is all over WoW, and by all accounts its just as powerful as magic. Unless you want to seriously argue that the Mages of Dalaran and Magylos are more powerful than the Titans who use technology.



Well that's your opinion. The fact of the matter is that a player cannot raid using only Engineering items for Tank/Heal/DPSing. Thus there's no way that the Engineering profession covers the space of a technology class.

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No, that is helping someone else fight a bad-ass monster, since Shrink Ray doesn't kill anything, it just makes it smaller.

Not that anything in Engineering can kill anyway....

There's a difference between mages/enchanting and tinkers/engineering. A 'tinker' class would basically be a more advanced engineer. But enchanting is a school of arcane magic not directly related to the mage class, mages don't enchant things by default. In fact in the schools of arcane magic book the lore character example provided is Kael'thas' magic weapons, which are beyond what player mages or player enchanters can do.

Engineers meanwhile pretty much do what tinkers do, tinkers would just take it to the extent they can function as a playable class. Building crazy gadgets, using rockets/bombs, turrets etc. A tinker would be a more advanced engineer while mages/enchanting are dealing with different schools of arcane magic altogether. The tinker would basically be an engineer that has good enough stuff to fight with it directly.

[Bijohx]

But what about the races? the unique races that come to mind are alli: Gnome-Human and horde: Undead-Goblin

[fixx]

No, that is helping someone else fight a bad-ass monster, since Shrink Ray doesn't kill anything, it just makes it smaller.

Not that anything in Engineering can kill anyway....

You still have no clue on how to separate theme from game mechanics, or the reason why thematically quite overpowered engineering abilities aren't that powerful in the game.

For a while now I've had absolute certainty you're just playing dumb to piss off people, but now I'm not so sure anymore...

Infracted.

[Teriz]

Because 'Enchanting' is a school of magic adventuring mages do not bother to learn. It doesn't work with technology. At all.

So again, no adverse affect at all.

So what is this "problem" that you guys keep talking about?

Let's bring it back to Tinkers and Engineering; How would it be a "problem" if Tinkers aren't experts in Engineering form the get-go? How would this lack of knowledge adversely affect either the Tinker class, or the profession?

Wrong. Every time technology was pitted against magic, technology lost. Yes, that includes Titan technology.

Except it wasn't just pitted against magic. It was also pitted against physical strength (Warriors), or cunning skill/agility (Hunters, Rogues, Monks). Further, that same force also brought down beings who are incredibly powerful in magic such as the Lich King, and Deathwing. So technology getting beaten by that force does nothing to show its actual strength.

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There's a difference between mages/enchanting and tinkers/engineering. A 'tinker' class would basically be a more advanced engineer. But enchanting is a school of arcane magic not directly related to the mage class, mages don't enchant things by default. In fact in the schools of arcane magic book the lore character example provided is Kael'thas' magic weapons, which are beyond what player mages or player enchanters can do.

Engineers meanwhile pretty much do what tinkers do, tinkers would just take it to the extent they can function as a playable class. Building crazy gadgets, using rockets/bombs, turrets etc. A tinker would be a more advanced engineer while mages/enchanting are dealing with different schools of arcane magic altogether. The tinker would basically be an engineer that has good enough stuff to fight with it directly.

Disagree. Just like there are different schools or magic, there are different schools of technology as well. Also there are areas of tech that the Engineering profession doesn't cover, but the class would/could.

Additionally, just because a Tinker is an exceptional engineer doesn't mean that they have the expertise to craft guns or malfunctioning teleporters. Their expertise could simply lie in only constructing the Claw Pack/Hammer Tank and its related weapon/defense systems.

Indeed, its like saying that since Tony Stark could build the Iron Man suit, he could craft a handgun and some bullets by default. Tony Stark's expertise lies in robotics, not in constructing handguns.

[Ielenia]

So what is this "problem" that you guys keep talking about?

To be tinkers, they need to know engineering. All of them. And all engineers tinker, making them tinkerers. There is no distinction at all between them to make them separate.

Except it wasn't just pitted against magic. It was also pitted against physical strength (Warriors), or cunning skill/agility (Hunters, Rogues, Monks).

Irrelevant. The fact is, everytime technology lost. No exceptions. At best what you said shows that physical strength and cunning also beat the Titan's tech.

Disagree. Just like there are different schools or magic, there are different schools of technology as well. Also there are areas of tech that the Engineering profession doesn't cover, but the class would/could.

Dead wrong. There is no such thing as 'schools of technology'. Technology is a single thing. There are no 'schools of tech', nor anything in the in-game lore that even suggests or alludes to such a thing. That is complete conjecture and fanfiction from your part. Also saying 'areas of tech the engineer cannot do or cover' is dead wrong as well. Proof? Engineers build guns, build bombs, build rockets and build modified shredders. That alone is proof of concept engineers can build a rocket-launched equipped, gun-armed pilotable mech.

[Teriz]

To be tinkers, they need to know engineering. All of them. And all engineers tinker, making them tinkerers. There is no distinction at all between them to make them separate.

Engineering =/= Engineering profession. Now please explain how this would harm the player of WoW to the point where Blizzard wouldn't implement the class. Afterall, the only reason Blizzard wouldn't implement the class for this reason you're describing is if it causes the player's game experience to suffer.

So Ielenia, please explain how a player's game experience will suffer if a Tinker isn't a master of the Engineering profession at level 1.

Irrelevant. The fact is, everytime technology lost. No exceptions. At best what you said shows that physical strength and cunning also beat the Titan's tech.

Actually its not irrelevant since everything loses to the heroes of Azeroth, no matter if they're magic, technology, physical strength, etc. You can't logically argue that tech is weaker than magic because it loses to a force of heroes, because magic also loses to that same force of heroes.

Dead wrong. There is no such thing as 'schools of technology'. Technology is a single thing. There are no 'schools of tech', nor anything in the in-game lore that even suggests or alludes to such a thing. That is complete conjecture and fanfiction from your part.

So you're saying that Titan, Legion, Draenei, Goblin, Gnome, Forsaken, Worgen, and Dwarven tech are all the same, though each do different things, have different attributes, and utilize different skillsets?

Also saying 'areas of tech the engineer cannot do or cover' is dead wrong as well. Proof? Engineers build guns, build bombs, build rockets and build modified shredders. That alone is proof of concept engineers can build a rocket-launched equipped, gun-armed pilotable mech.

For it to be proof of concept, the potential for use has to be proven. Since we both know that the Engineering profession will never receive a gun-armed pilotable mech, your PoC argument here is nonsense.

[Ielenia]

Engineering =/= Engineering profession.

And yet you so far haven't found any way of explaining how a tinker differs from an engineer in lore.

Actually its not irrelevant since everything loses to the heroes of Azeroth, no matter if they're magic, technology, physical strength, etc. You can't logically argue that tech is weaker than magic because it loses to a force of heroes, because magic also loses to that same force of heroes.

If by 'heroes' of Azeroth, you mean players, well, the Lich King only died because Tirion slashed Frostmourne's blade in two. Deathwing was only beaten because Thrall and the Aspects used the Dragon Soul. Meanwhile, the Titan tech was indeed beaten by this ragtag group of heroes, who couldn't beat the LK or Deathwing on their own.

So you're saying that Titan, Legion, Draenei, Goblin, Gnome, Forsaken, Worgen, and Dwarven tech are all the same, though each do different things, have different attributes, and utilize different skillsets?

No, I'm saying is that gnome, goblin, forsaken, draenei, worgen, dwarven tech are all the same, and do the same things. Meanwhile, Titan and Legion tech are the same since Sargeras is a fallen Titan.

EDIT: 'do different things', 'have different attributes' and 'utilize different skillsets' is all conjecture and guesswork from your part with no real foundation.

For it to be proof of concept, the potential for use has to be proven.

And it was. Blackfuse's modified shredder is the 'potential for use' proof.

[Teriz]

And yet you so far haven't found any way of explaining how a tinker differs from an engineer in lore.

And yet so far you haven't found any reason for why that matters at all.

If by 'heroes' of Azeroth, you mean players, well, the Lich King only died because Tirion slashed Frostmourne's blade in two. Deathwing was only beaten because Thrall and the Aspects used the Dragon Soul. Meanwhile, the Titan tech was indeed beaten by this ragtag group of heroes, who couldn't beat the LK or Deathwing on their own.

So now you're saying that the player never really beat any magical bosses in WoW?

No, I'm saying is that gnome, goblin, forsaken, draenei, worgen, dwarven tech are all the same, and do the same things. Meanwhile, Titan and Legion tech are the same since Sargeras is a fallen Titan.

Forsaken tech:



Dwarven Tech:



Draenei (Naaru) tech:



But yes, they're all the same....

EDIT: 'do different things', 'have different attributes' and 'utilize different skillsets' is all conjecture and guesswork from your part with no real foundation.

We know that the Forsaken's technology is based around chemical dispersal and chemical weaponry. That's far different than the Dwarven focus of steel and gunpowder, which in turn is different than the Draenei's tech which is more crystal-based, and appears far more magical.

Heck, even Gnomish and Goblin tech isn't the same;

http://www.wowwiki.com/Goblins_versus_gnomes

And it was. Blackfuse's modified shredder is the 'potential for use' proof.

Then please explain how we're going to put guns on the sky golem in a future WoW expansion when Blizzard won't permit that to happen.

[Ielenia]

And yet so far you haven't found any reason for why that matters at all.

If they are one and the same, then a Tinker class cannot exist because the engineering profession has all the tech theme assimilated into it.

So now you're saying that the player never really beat any magical bosses in WoW?

I'm not saying they didn't. I'm just saying that, so far, for at least two bosses, the players needed outside help to beat them, and both of those bosses were magical in nature. The heroes even lost to the Lich King, remember? They were all killed, in the end. They were only revived because Tirion destroyed Frostmourne before their souls were consumed.

Forsaken tech: [img]http://eqrez.com/stormhaven/mediawiki/images/7/73/Forsaken_catapult.jpg[img] #1
Dwarven Tech: [img]http://www.paperspencils.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/t_sfdfsdfsffsfsf_155.png[img] #2
Draenei (Naaru) tech: [img]http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wowpedia.org/5/58/Naaru_Ship.jpg[img] #3
But yes, they're all the same....

#1 : A simple catapult. Nothing fancy about it.
#2 : A tank... which the Iron Horde can also make.
#3 : A magical space ship. Fueled and created by magic.

We know that the Forsaken's technology is based around chemical dispersal and chemical weaponry. That's far different than the Dwarven focus of steel and gunpowder, which in turn is different than the Draenei's tech which is more crystal-based, and appears far more magical.

Yet the technology the Forsaken and Dwarves use is very much the same. And what you claim is the 'Draenei tech' is simply the Naaru magic crystals. There is no tech at all in Azuremyst Isle, Bloodmyst Isle, or in the Exodar. Oh, and in Tempest Keep as well.

[Teriz]

If they are one and the same, then a Tinker class cannot exist because the engineering profession has all the tech theme assimilated into it.

They aren't one in the same because an Engineer can't raid or perform class roles using only engineering items.

Yet the technology the Forsaken and Dwarves use is very much the same. And what you claim is the 'Draenei tech' is simply the Naaru magic crystals. There is no tech at all in Azuremyst Isle, Bloodmyst Isle, or in the Exodar. Oh, and in Tempest Keep as well.

No tech in Azuremyst Isle?

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=9305/spare-parts


As for that "simple catapult", it's driven by a machinist;

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=36292/forsaken-machinist

Teriz, don't you ever get tired?

Nope.

However, I won't have as much time to post next month.

[Deleted]

Teriz, don't you ever get tired?

[Ielenia]

They aren't one in the same because an Engineer can't raid or perform class roles using only engineering items.

Irrelevant because we're talking theme, and 'class roles' aren't themes.

No tech in Azuremyst Isle? http://www.wowhead.com/quest=9305/spare-parts
As for that "simple catapult", it's driven by a machinist; http://www.wowhead.com/npc=36292/forsaken-machinist

#1: magic crystals;
#2: simple catapults, still. Just need a common shmuck to aim the shots and drive it around. No engineering knowledge needed for that.