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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    I'm not taking offense and I hope none is given. I'm just genuinely curious about what you guys get out of pve. I presume I'm missing something.
    With regard to pvp: I don't see the level of repitition as comparable. You have the germ of a good point in that most pvpers actually do the same crap every bg. But, for the creative, you don't have to.
    Let's take AV as an example, look at the number of potential strategies you can employ:
    Now, in pve, I can't actually go anywhere the raid isn't without dieing instantly.

    There's a pretty much optimal rotation and set of tactics in pve. Any deviation from that
    rotation is just going to lower your dps. When you get new content and new abilities, sure
    that changes, but we have to wait until autumn for that.
    ^ I haven't PvP'd for a long while - got Glad during Season 1 3 4, stopped PvP-ing at the end of TBC, and only back briefly for rated-BG early this patch - so my experience may be outdated, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I won't address random BG because to me it has never meant to be competitive since after the rank 14 grind during Vanilla, and more like just a mean to grind points now.

    Whether you have, or don't have to follow a specific tactic in PvP, is arguable. If you want to aim for the best outcome, then it's likely you will have to follow one in a set of certain tactics. That set, isn't much bigger than PvE's set, either. Look at your 11 "potential strategies", for example, a lot of them (i.e: #8, 9, 10, 11) aren't really a strategy, more like some tricks / parts in a strategy - which there are similar parts in PvE strategy too. You may have not noticed since you did only LFR, which require little to no tactic, but judging PvE based on that will be similar to someone AFK in BG or only do some random BG and judge PvP to be boring and zerg-ish.

    As for lowering performance, even in PvP, you can mess around with various stuff, but more often than not, you won't get the best result - which is the same in PvE. In arena, for example, while people usually claimed "it's real people and not AI", to me it didn't seem that much different back then. 9 out of 10 games, I could pretty much tell which strategy a team is going to use, who in my team / their team will likely be targeted first, when it will be dangerous, etc. It was far from unpredictable. If we lost, it was more because we didn't have the strat / skill to counter theirs, and not because we didn't see what was coming. Same for RBG, even before the game starts, we had a clear idea of what to do (i.e: X and Y go to zone A, if success, do (1), if not, do (2)) So saying there aren't optimal strats in PvP isn't entirely correct. "For creative, you don't have to" is true. But generally, if you do something just "for creative" in PvP, it's likely you will likely contribute little to victory.
    Last edited by Qualia; 2014-03-24 at 11:41 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Herecius View Post
    Well, for starters, you can totally have deviation from tactics and rotation. From fight to fight, how you approach it as DPS will change. As a healer, you may have a different setup, each fight will present a different sort of challenge. As a tank, it's all about how best to get the positional requirements of the raid in line while staying alive and doing lots of damage while doing it. As a raid leader and all of his/her helpers, it's about working out the strategy, figuring it out and implementing it, making whatever your raid's composition is work to beat a boss.

    And as a raid as a whole, it's about spending however many tens, or hundreds of attempts to down a brutal boss and the rewarding feeling of a great huge group of people all beating a huge fight together.

    In PvP, even at its largest organized scale - 10v10 ranked BGs - no single battle feels like the almost insurmountable hurdle that an extreme fight such as Heroic Lei Shen, or Heroic Rag, or Heroic Lich King can feel like. Going all the way back to Lich King for example, when you start that fight, it is just this MOUNTAIN of challenge. A long fight, with no truly easy phases. Lots of coordination - tranq shots gotta happen within split seconds, stuns on val'kyrs must be coordinated and happen right away and on demand, soaking spirits needs to be taken care of on a rotation, you need a competent leader in the spirit phase and the raid has to stick to that leader (let's not even mention the hell that is doing defile correctly) - and it all has to happen in one pull. Getting it all to happen at once is a big deal, and it's just a load of fun when you actually get it down.

    So yeah, maybe it's like working at a bank with really fun co-workers... if every time you closed a transaction at the bank, you got a big cut of the profits and fireworks shot into the sky.
    Great post. Yeah, I did enjoy the LK fight.

    (Though, if you think there are no "insurmountable hurdles" in pvp you've never played a geared Russian/German team with a PUG team. )

    (also, isn't that what city bankers do?)

  3. #23
    Scarab Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    May 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    Yeah, you are right. However, you individually can do whatever the hell you want.

    The things I mentioned can mostly be done in solo. After some practice it is even possible to hold
    up the horde at Balinda for around a minute.

    - - - Updated - - -

    That wasn't why I started the thread. I have no wish to stop people doing what they enjoy. I'm happy for them.

    I'm trying to understand it.

    Let's change the tone of the thread:

    What do you enjoy about PVE?

    What are the moments in raids do you have great memories of?

    What motivates you to do the same content repeatedly?
    It's fun?
    Too many to list.
    What motivates you to do PvP repeatedly? - Having fun.

    You're also comparing LFR and pug content in PVE to a well-run raiding guild. Just as in PVP, where random BGs are an annoying nightmare of incompetence and flaming (=LFR), the difference between the two is enormous.

    Both aspects build on social structures and the team experience, and that's when they actually start to come into their own. The challenges they pose are different ones - PvP requires more dynamic reactions and a different type of communication and control of your character. PvE requires a different kind of environment awareness and organization. Each hold their own challenges.

    You may not enjoy replaying the same encounter over and over again, others do. I don't enjoy running after enemy players as much as I do running PVE content.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    How is PvP really all that different? You're doing the exact same things over and over, are you not?

    Also there is a much bigger challenge in heroic raiding in heroics, especially 25m, than most people give it credit for. Most people who say raiding isn't hard are just a kind of backseat driver. They haven't raided in a deep heroic raiding guild, don't do challenge modes. I don't think using LFR is a good example. The reason people can do that same content over and over is the same reason people can play Diablo 3 over and over, loot; progress. Some people do it for the challenge, heroic raiding. Those are just two examples.

    I hear people say the exact same stuff about PvP that you have. It's always changing, always different, different strats. No offense, but after you play BGs/arena for so long, eventually you're just performing the same strategies, playing against a certain amount of healers/dps or comps over and over. You're doing the same thing over and over, no different than PvE.
    You are simply wrong. If you are doing the same things over and over again you are probably very predictable and you are not going to achieve a high rating. The goal is to not be predictable and have multiple tactics, which is not equal to doing the same things over and over.

  5. #25
    Brewmaster Mystrome's Avatar
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    Dec 2013
    Absolutely fucking lost
    When you reduce PVE to raiding only, the answer is quite simple: Raiders raid because they like beating a challenge with (usually) a group of people they know and like, and get that 'accomplishment rush'. I remember when we first killed the LK like it was yesterday, probably my best moment in the game. There were many lows before getting to that point (and i do mean MANY), so that particular high felt epic.

    The thing with raiding is, that the rules of the game are defined, and your job is how to figure it out with the tools in your raidgroup. Since most raidgroups have a different setup, what works for team A doesn't nessecarily work for team B, allowing you to feel you did something unique. I'm not talking about bleeding edge progress raiding, let's leave that out of my equasion for arguments' sake. The average progress raid group, will have something to tackle for most if not all of a raidtier.

    So yes, a lot of the fights in any given instance are very repetative once they've been beaten, but the reward is that you're always working towards something new, and most people do that with a large group of people they know. It's a social thing, and even though each group probably has someone in there who says he's there "just for dem dere lewtz", most people aren't and like the thought of teamwork.

    Now a lot of these points i've made can also be made for PVP, except for the most important one: the rules being defined. In PVP you don't always know what to expect, you don't know how strong your opponent is, how well they are geared, when to expect the dmg to start being inflicted etc. In anything except BG's teams are very small, some people just like being part of a large (10+ people) group, and except for RBG's, there's an overwhealming lack of organization in most other large pvp battles.

    Personally, i'm not that good at PVP, probably will never be either. I can't react to what is going on very quickly, i can't keybind stuff properly (don't have 100% usage of my hands, 75% at best on a good day) so i go around the world of warcraft madly clicking away. In PVP people like me get stomped most of the time, which isn't all that fun if you will believe me. However in PVE that's much less of an issue for me, since i can start preparing for stuff to happen because you know it's coming in 5-4-3.... etc.

    Ultimately, it's just a matter of taste. Some people only like PVE, some only like PVP and some will like both while leaning towards either side.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by spelgubbe View Post
    You are simply wrong. If you are doing the same things over and over again you are probably very predictable and you are not going to achieve a high rating. The goal is to not be predictable and have multiple tactics, which is not equal to doing the same things over and over.
    Unless the PvP game has changed greatly now compared to when I quit, I'd beg to differ. Most of the tactics in PvP are known and predictable to some extends in high level PvP (see my previous post). I hadn't seen any team trying to do something I had never seen / thought of before and succeed.

  7. #27
    While PvP can be really fun at times I enjoy being able to "beat the game". Which is something you can only achieve in PvP if you account some meta gaming (achievements, rank #1, etc.). That's also why I don't enjoy the Diablo style of farming so much. Thus I am not a big fan of heroic difficulty, killing the same boss a second time is not really exciting for me.
    Also I like being able to determine my own level of skill without accounting for the skill of others. Or in other words, while I often rage in PvP about the enemy, I almost never complain about difficulty in PvE.

  8. #28
    Because pvp in this game consists of cc the player so much where they can't attack and burst them down before it comes off. That's not enjoyable to me. And you did LFR which is a horrible way to do weird pvp if your trying to do first impressions. And if you did LFR of course it isn't challenging.
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    We have had multiple threads of white people complaining that black people were offended over some racist thing some white person said.
    Here we have a thread of white people offended over something some racist black person said.
    The key difference is that the white people in this thread aren't being told "shut up stop being offended get over it."

  9. #29
    High Overlord plumwd's Avatar
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    Jan 2012
    Treasure Coast
    A huge part of what makes PVE fun is the team you're playing with. When you have a great, cohesive team, anything is possible. It makes the time spent much more enjoyable. In addition, I know I want that next piece of gear, that next boss kill, that next achievement...

    I used to PVP quite a bit, and honestly doing the same BGs got boring too. You have the same idiots screaming at people to go to this, or go cap that. "STOP FIGHTING IN THE ROAD", "FIGHT ON THE FLAGS!", "CAP MINES" with the same lack of communication that you do in LFR.

    This isn't meant to be a solitary game. You need the help of people and in particular those that you trust and have worked with. This is true for PVE and PVP. Why do you think they made rated battlegrounds?

  10. #30
    After playing this game since launch many years ago and actively participating in all aspects of pve and pvp, I have come to the following conclusions.
    - If you like organised raiding, there is no better option than wow.
    - If you like organised pvp, there are many better options than wow.
    This is probably why I enjoy pve in wow a fair bit more than pvp. This statement is purely my opinion and I am sure many will disagree, as is their right to do so.
    "Plz inv for steelsnap"

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by MyCelar View Post
    LFR isnt pve though :P.

    Never was.

    Indeed, nothing more boring then farm when there is no more content to come, but trying to get bis for next patch I could live with.
    lfr IS PvE. Its just the trash of raiding.

    But OP answered his own question with LFR. So /thread

    The thing that makes me come back to PvE every new patch is the teamwork i have with the firends i play WoW with. The new content is fun, and we dont blaze through it like some other guilds does. We have fun and take it serious and we raid casually.

    There is a reason they release several raids during an expansion you know So it doesnt become to repititive. Thats also why so many,0 ppl are unsubbing atm,

  12. #32
    Scarab Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    May 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Kookies View Post
    After playing this game since launch many years ago and actively participating in all aspects of pve and pvp, I have come to the following conclusions.
    - If you like organised raiding, there is no better option than wow.
    - If you like organised pvp, there are many better options than wow.
    This is probably why I enjoy pve in wow a fair bit more than pvp. This statement is purely my opinion and I am sure many will disagree, as is their right to do so.
    I'll sign that, having played all the big competitors as well.

  13. #33
    Pit Lord
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by advanta View Post
    Normal experience in an LFR raid is this:
    Stopped reading there. Comparing PvE with lfr is like comparing PvP with raiding Stomwind with 40 lvl 75 chars.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I've done nothing wrong. I'm not the one with the problem its everyone else that has a problem with me.
    Quote Originally Posted by MilesMcStyles View Post
    I don't care that other people don't play the content that I enjoy.

  14. #34
    PvP is no different, lol, stop trying to kid yourself into thinking being a PvP'r makes you a better player.

    It's all about tactics and knowing your opponents abilities, same in PvP. You have to react to situations, counter abilities, work as a team, etc etc. It's all the same.

    Also WoW has the same BG's / Arenas over and over, most RBG's for example everyone does the same tactics, there are no variations.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kookies View Post
    - If you like organised raiding, there is no better option than wow.
    - If you like organised pvp, there are many better options than wow.
    Totally agree, and this is a massive part of why all of the 'WoW Clones' have fallen flat. No game yet has created a PvE end game to rival WoW.


    What makes PvE fun varies depending on who you are. For me the main thing is overcoming a challenge with people that I like. Raiding with people you like isn't just raiding, it's a social platform. After our guild raid is done for the night there'll be people on TS chatting away for atleast the next couple of hours. That's fun to me.

    Your comparison of LFR to working in a bank makes no sense. It's more like... do I want to go down to the pub and drink by myself in room of strangers (LFR), or would I like to go down and have a few pints with my friends (actual raiding).

    LFR is shit, and if you base your idea of PvE on it then yea, you won't enjoy it.

  16. #36
    im a 14/14 heroic raider and although I do enjoy doing pvp mainly on my other hunter which isnt sporting almost full bis pve gear for world pvp the majority of my time and fun comes from raiding. You really cant compare ranked pvp with lfr. You have to compare like for like eg heroic raiding with high rated pvp. In heroic raiding its not just a matter of picking the best strat that the web has and using it as if your doing early progress there are no guides and your group composition will change on a weekly basis also skill levels within the raid will also effect these choices. You have to keep trying new strats till you find the one that works with that group and keep refining till you get the perfect strat (for your gp) and the perfect pull. for garrosh heroic we were one of the first guilds that solo tanked it and it was with pally which I think we were the first. Not through choice just bacause we were a tank short but had to learn the fight without using any guilds even though all the forums told us it was not possible with that composition. Doing things dif from eveery other tactic is also fun in itself.

    The as bosses become farm bosses your strats change again either from that key player missing or because you want to mix it around for fun and new challenges.

    Once you have every boss on farm yes it becomes boring but very few guilds get to that level of collective skill.

    In pvp if you get the flavour of the month which I know a lot of pvpers do, that is generally unfullfilling as its not cheating but its also not balanced although at least these extremes are less than they used to be. I didnt even bother pvping on my hunter when we were opp as I would not find that fun. I enjoy owning from skill alone.

    Im a hunter and in pvp there are much less things you can md to your mate to kill them in breaks too which is always good entertainment.
    Last edited by olordwhite; 2014-03-24 at 01:00 PM.

  17. #37
    could say the exact same about bgs. bgs are so boring and their mostly full of retards that never work together. try controlling 40 people, now try controlling 25 in a raid. a little easier, or try working with just 10. much easier. raids may be repetitive but pve players dont find it as boring.. well some bosses are but then we just turn them into fun ones to make them challenging again. like seeing how many bosses we can 1heal on heroic modes. or try and wipe the raid for lulz and see if our healers can handle it ( splitting instead of stacking at the end on galakras). also with a full raidteam and then some, u can sub players in and out as they choose, most sit on bosses they dont need loot so new players get a free carry + some fun bossing exp

    lfr isnt bossing btw, or even raiding. its just a magical afk fest where loot drops right into your bags regardless of whether you participate.

  18. #38
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    The forums

    LFR is NOT the definition of PvE. (can't point that out enough)
    Try raiding in a proper guild and see what a different experience that is.

    That said, I dislike PvP with the same passion that you have for PvE. Or what you consider PvE to be (wrongly)

  19. #39
    Brewmaster ACES's Avatar
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    Mar 2013
    Arlen, TX
    PvE gives rewards that are more accessible, substantial, and permanent. When I beat a heroic endboss I know I'm getting a title that I can keep forever, so why would I even bother doing PvP when any title I get, except for rank 1, will go away and I'll have to earn it again.

  20. #40
    Mechagnome chaddd's Avatar
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    Aug 2010
    24 Hours of Lemons track
    LFR is merely tourist mode - people who don't get to raid often that want to get a look at a boss. I enjoy PVE because I get to play it with friends and it's a group of us overcoming a challenge that the game developers have set in place. 1st you beat it on normal and then you go and do it in heroics, which are more challenging. I could akin almost all single player video games as PVE games as it is you vs the environment (developer).
    The light that burns twice as bright burns for half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly.

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