1. #1201
    Deleted
    Doh ... Moonkins are getting even more ability bloated ...

    I mean seriously, 6 damagespells that are required for the rotation? 6? Is that necessary?
    Moonfire + Sunfire = basically the same spell with a different color
    Wrath + Starfire = also the same spell with different color and well a higher casttime
    Starsurge ...
    Stellar flare ...

    So I have to use 6 keybinds for my very basic rotation on top of all the situational spells, healings and ccs aswella s all the forms.
    Why does the balance druid need to have every spell duplicated because of this stupidly forced eclipse thing.

    Same goes on with things like Mushrooms ... one spell to place them one to explode them and so on ... button bloat is execcsive with druids and nothing has been done to fix that.

  2. #1202
    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    Doh ... Moonkins are getting even more ability bloated ...

    I mean seriously, 6 damagespells that are required for the rotation? 6? Is that necessary?
    Moonfire + Sunfire = basically the same spell with a different color
    Wrath + Starfire = also the same spell with different color and well a higher casttime
    Starsurge ...
    Stellar flare ...

    So I have to use 6 keybinds for my very basic rotation on top of all the situational spells, healings and ccs aswella s all the forms.
    Why does the balance druid need to have every spell duplicated because of this stupidly forced eclipse thing.

    Same goes on with things like Mushrooms ... one spell to place them one to explode them and so on ... button bloat is execcsive with druids and nothing has been done to fix that.
    Stellar Flare is a talent so you may or may not be using it. It also takes the rotational keybind of the current Starfall. Moonfire+Sunfire in one button further reduces current rotational ability buttons.

    Mushroom Detonate has been removed and thus frees up a keybind. Only Mushrooms themselves remain and they do no damage. They emit fungal growth on placement and they are basically 3 aoe snares that can be moved on demand.


  3. #1203
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    Doh ... Moonkins are getting even more ability bloated ...

    I mean seriously, 6 damagespells that are required for the rotation? 6? Is that necessary?
    Moonfire + Sunfire = basically the same spell with a different color
    Wrath + Starfire = also the same spell with different color and well a higher casttime
    Starsurge ...
    Stellar flare ...

    So I have to use 6 keybinds for my very basic rotation on top of all the situational spells, healings and ccs aswella s all the forms.
    Why does the balance druid need to have every spell duplicated because of this stupidly forced eclipse thing.

    Same goes on with things like Mushrooms ... one spell to place them one to explode them and so on ... button bloat is execcsive with druids and nothing has been done to fix that.
    As Juvencus mentioned above Moonfire/Sunfire will share the same button now so that's gone, I agree btw, Its was my biggest pet hate especially in PVP when engaging combat Moonkins have a number of tedious GCDs to process before we can get into a rotation of such. (at least in my opinion in comparison to my Ele for example, one button Flameshock and your off!).

    The Wrath + Starfire spells are ok having two spells imo, and we couldn't have one button for them with the new allignment changes (automatically scrolling allignment between Solar and Lunar).... take this for example:
    You start casting Wrath but your now 'Auto moving Alignment bar' takes you into the Lunar half making your wrath a poor spell. If they where merged into one the ingame model would have to auto change your spell mid-cast to the coresponding spell for each eclipse, this is them playing the game for you. Or would result in bar delay and not allowing you to pre cast due to them sharing an icon.

    Personally having the Wrath/Starfires to watch out for especially now on a moving allignment bar will add some additional thought to the rotation in addition to the task of refreshing the Wrath/Starfire Dot before you miss the opportunity that eclipse period, this will only allow the skill-cap for the class to be raised slightly.

    Finally Mushrooms as Juvencus rightly said are now one ability with no detonate. A much welcome change as far as I'm concerned! Finding time to place 3 shrooms and detonate whilst being trained by melee was not fun nor necessary.

    All in all they seem to be reworking the spec mechanics to be slightly easier to pick up but harder to master (timing within alignments) and personally I'm OK with that.
    Last edited by mmoc76988e8730; 2014-06-25 at 03:22 PM.

  4. #1204
    Quote Originally Posted by Skook View Post
    Personally having the Wrath/Starfires to watch out for especially now on a moving allignment bar will add some additional thought to the rotation in addition to the task of refreshing the Wrath/Starfire Dot before you miss the opportunity that eclipse period, this will only allow the skill-cap for the class to be raised slightly.
    Won't be that much of an issue to cause stop casting. Remember that the eclipse bonuses will be fluid so the very end of one eclipse and the very start of the other one will have very small damage differences. Certainly small enough to keep you from cancelling that long Starfire. Kinda like in Wrath where Eclipses would proc at random, you wouldn't cancel your current cast.


  5. #1205
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    Won't be that much of an issue to cause stop casting. Remember that the eclipse bonuses will be fluid so the very end of one eclipse and the very start of the other one will have very small damage differences. Certainly small enough to keep you from cancelling that long Starfire. Kinda like in Wrath where Eclipses would proc at random, you wouldn't cancel your current cast.
    Hmm fair point, my initial thought was that we'd have to time our casts to get the best out of them, I suppose thats the nitty gritty minor dps boost, but as you say for the most part wont matter too much...

    Additionally, I'm interested, concerned and excited (but nervous) about getting these Starfall/Starsurge procs, stacking up to 3, I know we can use them on Starfall which will be nice! But, do we know if the shooting stars Starsurges will still be instant as is on live? If they're casted I can see us just casting a chain of SS through our rotation and barely touching Starfire/Wrath, unless they reduce the proc chance of Shooting Stars through gear scaling or something..

  6. #1206
    They will be instant on account of all Starsurges being instant once you get the perk. Shooting Stars just gives another charge, nothing more.

  7. #1207
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    They will be instant on account of all Starsurges being instant once you get the perk. Shooting Stars just gives another charge, nothing more.
    Hmm, I was hoping that was correct however on this post.

    It has the following with a line through it:
    "Several Glyphs and Draenor Perks will be redesigned in a future build, and so are currently TBD.
    Glyph of Omens
    Glyph of Sudden Eclipse
    Empowered Starfall
    Enhanced Mushrooms
    Enhanced Starsurge
    Enhanced Storms"

    Edit: Suppose that answers my own questions its TBD. Hope they keep them instant! Going to Tweet Celestalon and hope for a reply!

    Will let you know if I hear anything back.
    Last edited by mmoc76988e8730; 2014-06-25 at 04:02 PM.

  8. #1208
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    Stellar Flare is a talent so you may or may not be using it. It also takes the rotational keybind of the current Starfall. Moonfire+Sunfire in one button further reduces current rotational ability buttons.

    Mushroom Detonate has been removed and thus frees up a keybind. Only Mushrooms themselves remain and they do no damage. They emit fungal growth on placement and they are basically 3 aoe snares that can be moved on demand.
    Oh thanks for the answer! Skook aswell!

    I didn't know that about the mushrooms, that is pretty great I guess.
    Concernin Stellar flare, yes you're right but as it is a 1,5 sec cast ability which is thereor superior to wrath or starfall in PvP, I guess you still would want that.
    Since I doubt you can get a 3sec starfire or 2sec wrath off now that mostly all haste sources are gone, when you're actively trained and ... considering how much a free casting owl hurts, we will be trained.

    But the Moonfire+Starfire merge is great to hear!


    I personally can live with Starfall + Wrath, of course but as I have mentioned it is not the only spell we have to manage which basically does the same -> damage.
    However in that case we have 4 buttons left for a rotation 5 with the talent, I think that could somehow work. Especially since Starsurge is going to be an instant cast spell.

    Concerning the difficulty to master the spec: I don't mind that but some things aren't very difficult but just annoying like the mushrooms and how they currently work.
    However, that is still not enough in my opinion. For other classes having 4-5 rotational spells is manageable, but druids are supposed to use the utility spells of 4 different forms aswell, that just leads to so much bloat even without having 2 spells for the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skook View Post
    Hmm fair point, my initial thought was that we'd have to time our casts to get the best out of them, I suppose thats the nitty gritty minor dps boost, but as you say for the most part wont matter too much...

    Additionally, I'm interested, concerned and excited (but nervous) about getting these Starfall/Starsurge procs, stacking up to 3, I know we can use them on Starfall which will be nice! But, do we know if the shooting stars Starsurges will still be instant as is on live? If they're casted I can see us just casting a chain of SS through our rotation and barely touching Starfire/Wrath, unless they reduce the proc chance of Shooting Stars through gear scaling or something..

    Well Starsurge provides a buff that increaes the 2 following starfires or the 3 following wraths.
    So I guess rotationally we want to use those hardcasts after the starsurge to get out more dps before using another starsurge.
    Last edited by mmoc9469597767; 2014-06-25 at 04:06 PM.

  9. #1209
    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    Doh ... Moonkins are getting even more ability bloated ...

    I mean seriously, 6 damagespells that are required for the rotation? 6? Is that necessary?
    Moonfire + Sunfire = basically the same spell with a different color
    Wrath + Starfire = also the same spell with different color and well a higher casttime
    Starsurge ...
    Stellar flare ...

    So I have to use 6 keybinds for my very basic rotation on top of all the situational spells, healings and ccs aswella s all the forms.
    Why does the balance druid need to have every spell duplicated because of this stupidly forced eclipse thing.

    Same goes on with things like Mushrooms ... one spell to place them one to explode them and so on ... button bloat is execcsive with druids and nothing has been done to fix that.
    Unless you pvp and have a lot of 1 2 3 and focus macros you have plenty of action bar and keybind availability. Stop being so dramatic. You want just wrath and moonfire?

  10. #1210
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Fountaiin View Post
    Unless you pvp and have a lot of 1 2 3 and focus macros you have plenty of action bar and keybind availability. Stop being so dramatic. You want just wrath and moonfire?
    I currently have over 38 keybindings without even counting focus target or 123 macros.
    So I don't know but that does sound like a lot in my opinion.

  11. #1211
    Quote Originally Posted by Skook View Post
    Hmm, I was hoping that was correct however on this post.
    No, they just decided that kind of thing doesn't belong in the patchnotes. The Re-design is already done. The original Enhanced Starsurge increased the Eclipse energy generated by Starsurge, which no longer makes sense.

  12. #1212
    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    I currently have over 38 keybindings without even counting focus target or 123 macros.
    So I don't know but that does sound like a lot in my opinion.
    It's not a game for pudgy-fingered old grandmas. If you don't like a plethora of abilities choose another game. Hopefully enough abilities survive the pruning - I think it's finally over - that the game is still interesting and requires some decision making.

    In before the argument of lots of spells != skill or fun gameplay... Well, most of the problem was that there wasn't much need in PVE for abilities like Hibernate because they stopped creating content that needed it.

    btw 38 means you have unbound spells or important items. Thanks to people like you the game is becoming far too simplified and a lowered skill-cap as well. 6 damage spells too many for you lmfao? There's other specs out there for people that want the simple mongloid destro lock-type rotations. Leave the more complex specs alone. They've cut >10 abilities. That's more than enough.

  13. #1213
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dolsonthedruid View Post
    It's not a game for pudgy-fingered old grandmas. If you don't like a plethora of abilities choose another game. Hopefully enough abilities survive the pruning - I think it's finally over - that the game is still interesting and requires some decision making.

    In before the argument of lots of spells != skill or fun gameplay... Well, most of the problem was that there wasn't much need in PVE for abilities like Hibernate because they stopped creating content that needed it.

    btw 38 means you have unbound spells or important items. Thanks to people like you the game is becoming far too simplified and a lowered skill-cap as well. 6 damage spells too many for you lmfao? There's other specs out there for people that want the simple mongloid destro lock-type rotations. Leave the more complex specs alone. They've cut >10 abilities. That's more than enough.
    I deffinately hope that people like me influence the game up to that degree, because people like you obviously have no idea what they are talking about.
    And by the way, if the game is already too simple for you and will be too simple after pruning, I am pretty sure that you have killed heroic garrosh and that you're gladiator in PvP, right?

    If not, something about your argument is simply total crap and only makes you look like a hyprocite.

    By the way complexity does not mean more abilities. There is a reason why quantity doesn't equal quality. I guess you have visited enough school to be able to seperate those two terms correctly.
    If not, well ... you should care more about that than about the so called complexy of a game.

    So back to the topic:
    Having two exactly the same spells for two states that are flashing over your display and only a monkey would not check, does not add to the complexity of a class, it just adds bloat.

  14. #1214
    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    I deffinately hope that people like me influence the game up to that degree, because people like you obviously have no idea what they are talking about.
    And by the way, if the game is already too simple for you and will be too simple after pruning, I am pretty sure that you have killed heroic garrosh and that you're gladiator in PvP, right?
    Armory link is tough to click i guess. The game atm is okay in terms of complexity. The actual damage rotation for balance could be more complex. There could be more interesting/important uses for things like soothe or remove corruption, but it's not too simple in MoP. It's also not too simple, yet, in Warlords. You were pushing for an incredibly basic and boring spec and wanted to take away abilities without adding anything better to replace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    Having two exactly the same spells for two states that are flashing over your display and only a monkey would not check, does not add to the complexity of a class, it just adds bloat.
    The reason there are 2 spells is so that better players choose the correct one at the correct time. Eclipse works differently in WoD and while that idea may have been okay for MoP it's not for Warlords gameplay. Start casting the nuke before you enter the next eclipse so that by the time it finishes it receives the new buff. It's not as simple as using starfire when it's blue and wrath when it's yellow. Timing all the spells well in different situations will be part of the skill-cap.

  15. #1215
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dolsonthedruid View Post
    Armory link is tough to click i guess. The game atm is okay in terms of complexity. The actual damage rotation for balance could be more complex. There could be more interesting/important uses for things like soothe or remove corruption, but it's not too simple in MoP. It's also not too simple, yet, in Warlords. You were pushing for an incredibly basic and boring spec and wanted to take away abilities without adding anything better to replace.
    I've clicked it and saw a PvE hero with no Gladiator title and no 2,2k rating speaking about complexity of a class and button bloat.
    While in a PvE environment you might get away with using only those 6 skills, in PvP you don't.

    Also, I am no game designer I am a consumer, I don't have to provide replacements but I can and will criticize what I think is inapropriate.
    Having 2 abilities that do exactly the same thing doesn't add complexity, period.

    Take Moon and Sunfire for exemple. Both do the same thing and you will apply them regardlessly of your current eclipse state. So one of them is obviously not adding any depth, just bloat.

    You should also try reading comprehension. I have never ever said or mentioned that I want to reduce every single ability.
    And again, quantity does not mean quality.

    The reason there are 2 spells is so that better players choose the correct one at the correct time. Eclipse works differently in WoD and while that idea may have been okay for MoP it's not for Warlords gameplay. Start casting the nuke before you enter the next eclipse so that by the time it finishes it receives the new buff. It's not as simple as using starfire when it's blue and wrath when it's yellow. Timing all the spells well in different situations will be part of the skill-cap.
    That is funny because the actual goal for the change was to simplyfy it, but yet you defend it as being complex?
    This deffiately strangthens me in my opinion that you have not the tiniest clue about what complexity means.

    Using blue when it is blue sounds awfully complicated for sure!

    However since the majority of the people playing the game are casuals which have never seen heroic raiding nor gladiator level PvP, your prior statement is totally wrong and maybe, it is the oposite way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dolsonthedruid View Post
    It's not a game for pudgy-fingered old grandmas. If you don't like a plethora of abilities choose another game. Hopefully enough abilities survive the pruning - I think it's finally over - that the game is still interesting and requires some decision making.
    It more likeley seems to be a game where you are wrong , atleast that is what blizzards development heads to since BC.

  16. #1216
    Quote Originally Posted by Dolsonthedruid View Post
    It's not a game for pudgy-fingered old grandmas. If you don't like a plethora of abilities choose another game. Hopefully enough abilities survive the pruning - I think it's finally over - that the game is still interesting and requires some decision making.

    In before the argument of lots of spells != skill or fun gameplay... Well, most of the problem was that there wasn't much need in PVE for abilities like Hibernate because they stopped creating content that needed it.

    btw 38 means you have unbound spells or important items. Thanks to people like you the game is becoming far too simplified and a lowered skill-cap as well. 6 damage spells too many for you lmfao? There's other specs out there for people that want the simple mongloid destro lock-type rotations. Leave the more complex specs alone. They've cut >10 abilities. That's more than enough.
    Clearly the developers dont feel the way you do.....belittling his OPINION doesn't change their opinion.
    Having spella that do the exaxt same thing is not skillful, fun, or intresting. MF/SF are not liek IS/MF used to be. IS reduced hit chance, Wrath used to proc lunar EClipse and SF solar. In mop it was just silly, the spells all just did dmg with the caveat, this one is SOlar...woooo intresting....
    Last edited by Criminalle; 2014-06-25 at 06:53 PM.

  17. #1217
    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    I've clicked it and saw a PvE hero with no Gladiator title and no 2,2k rating speaking about complexity of a class and button bloat.
    While in a PvE environment you might get away with using only those 6 skills, in PvP you don't.

    -snip-
    Until you can form coherent sentences, use spell check and have a more enticing argument than insults there's no point in arguing with you. Feel free to link your armory/rank one/hero/world ranked kills if you aren't satisfied with mine being enough to have a meaningful opinion. My experience in WoW is fairly well-rounded, while leaning on the PVE side, of course, since I find it more fun and a lot more development time is spent on that side of the game.

    The pudgy fingered grandma comment wasn't directed at you, as you were focusing on 1 ability as far as I can tell - been gone for a few weeks so I am currently several pages behind on this thread in particular. There are many people that would like to have this game extremely reduced - 1-2 single tar abilities, an aoe button, a defensive cd, a sprint and thats about it. I'd prefer to preserve as much as possible while keeping the game playable for casuals. You don't need to use every ability currently to clear normal modes or reach 2.2k rating in 3s or 2s, but for the highest level play you'd need to take advantage of a lot more things as well as having higher reaction time/awareness, etc.

    And there's extremes to this too. You can have far too many abilities that are too situational or too few abilities that happen to work for most situations. You pretty much ignored my timing of starfire/wraths near the middle of the eclipse bar discussion so I'm not sure if you've played the Alpha or watched a stream to understand how the new eclipse mechanic works. This has also been discussed on twitter by the devs on why they are keeping both. I'd just suggest you move onto another ability that you think should be pruned as those two are very unlikely to be merged at this point. I actually think hibernate should come back, but in the form of a talent perhaps. I do like what they've done with druid defensives, without making druids much squishier in the process. So I'm not completely opposed to pruning, I just think that you're out with a hacksaw today.

  18. #1218
    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    Take Moon and Sunfire for exemple. Both do the same thing and you will apply them regardlessly of your current eclipse state. So one of them is obviously not adding any depth, just bloat.
    Moonfire lasts twice as long as Sunfire, while Sunfire splashes in a small radius. They are not doing the same thing, they aren't available at the same time, and they stack.

    Even if Sunfire was just an orange Moonfire, it wouldn't add any bloat, since you don't have both at the same time.

  19. #1219
    Quote Originally Posted by Criminalle View Post
    Clearly the developers dont feel the way you do.....belittling his OPINION doesn't change their opinion.
    Having spella that do the exaxt same thing is not skillful, fun, or intresting. MF/SF are not liek IS/MF used to be. IS reduced hit chance, Wrath used to proc lunar EClipse and SF solar. In mop it was just silly, the spells all just did dmg with the caveat, this one is SOlar...woooo intresting....
    Actually the devs do feel the same way about wrath and starfire. They will not be merged. I can only explain proper timing so many times. You might want to check out some moonkin vods of Alpha if you're still struggling to understand.

    I like the MF/SuF change because it distinguishes the eclipses more and makes them feel like they have more purpose rather than being recolors. Starfire and wrath are a very different situation.

  20. #1220
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    Still not liking the current Sine-wave playstyle. Really, really boring when the game basically plays itself =/
    Cyous - Are you in the Alpha currently? If so I was wondering if you could expand upon your comment that the sine-wave playstyle is boring. I know that I have wanted more control over balance druid damage (not less - which is the way it seems to be going) which would make the playstyle more interesting to me. Still I have held my comments until more information is forthcoming from the Alpha since so many things are not fleshed out at the moment.

    Interesting gameplay has very little to do with actual # of buttons but more to do about the decisions you need to make (thoughtful decisions >>> hit X button every Y seconds) so this whole conversation about ability pruning is a red herring. Let's hear from some Alpha testers: are there fun & interesting decisions to make while playing boomkin now or is it more of a canned rotation?

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