1. #2241
    Quote Originally Posted by Miraclous View Post
    "BoP is an interesting talent" said nobody ever.
    I like BoP as a Patchwerk talent, but i wouldn't say setting a DoT every 20s is interesting.

  2. #2242
    Quote Originally Posted by Miraclous View Post
    "BoP is an interesting talent" said nobody ever. I'm pretty sure throughout the 112 pages this thread is atm, everyone that is a regular poster had already mentioned at least once that they did not like BoP before the flare nerf. It makes sense to me that now that BoP looks like a valid option we start having a better look at it. To noone's surprise BoP is still as boring as a couple of months back and this is confirmed in the posts. People seem to be somewhat divided about Euphoria, when personally I am really interested to find out how the increased cycling speed of Euphoria will change our play on bossfights.
    BoP isnt interesting talent, I dont think it should be either. None of the talents are "interesting" if we're going to it, Euphoria is closes to it being "interesting". Others just buff damage or add/remove button(s) to our rotation.

    It makes sense to try out all the things in beta when numbers dont matter, not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miraclous View Post
    I am actually hoping somewhat for Flare to be a baseline ability for balance and us just having another talent in it´s place. I got nothing to possibly put on my `2´ hotkey when not playing with Flare and it´s so sad
    Flare just adds one button to the rotation, nothing more. It should be a talent like it currently is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    I completely forgot about the extra cast speed <.< Still, with only 1 SS per eclipse(20s) no euphoria is better (20% increased cast speed isn't going to make up for 100% reduced peak length) but with 2 SS per eclipse(20s) Euphoria would indeed allow for more empowered casts during peak.
    With the current tuning of Shooting Stars and the gear we have in beta, Euphoria awards more Empowered spell peak time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    Might be screaming SINGLE TARGET to you, to me it screams FACEROLL. And I'd expect a faceroll talent to be worse than complicated talents, no matter the encounter.
    The whole class screams faceroll in singletarget. Seriously, the two single target test last night I just followed what my addon told me. Theres absolutely nothing hard about moonkin single target, no matter what talent you take.

    Also, taking away buttons doesnt necessarily mean its easier. For example are you sure when you should swap from wrath to starfire and vice versa? Since without BoP you'll use Sunfire in one of the cases (if not both) making the transition decision alot easier for you.

    Theres so many things people just dont consider. Conversation about things is fine, but instantly yelling for buffs/nerfs/whatnot without properly thinking stuff through just isnt the way to go.

  3. #2243
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Also, I think blizzard has pretty clear direction with the spec. They havent done any significant changes to it after the initial patch notes. Just because you dont like it doesnt mean they dont have it.
    I Disagree.

    If you reed the toooltip for every single dot in the moonkin arsenal it implies that at which point u cast it during the eclipse cycle is an important and deciding factor in the effectiveness of the spell. This was the case at the start of the beta when Dots could snapshot. They removed the snapshotting but kept that mechanic as a core, making the niche of the dots, moot. this is a design flaw as a new change to the clas mechanic rendered a gameplay design pointless.

    Then you have BOP which looks like it would be amazing live with the current dot durations, but is almost pointless in the beta.

    These changes and that talents make the specc seem like they are not sure what to do with it. It is just the way it feels. I like the sine wave personaly thats not my issue. My issue is lvl 100 talents and Dots. If anyone feels liek these 2 things are in a good place please explain to me why. For me right now they just feel like "pick x talent and do x% more dmg" and dots just feel like "maintain uptime and do x amount dmg"

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    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    I dont think Flare is going to be difficult at all to balance, its just up to Blizzard whether they want flare to be competitive in single target dps or not.

    Making it only castable while at certain point of eclipse would remove most of its multitarget capacity. If blizz wants that then Im fine with it, but then there would be no real multitarget talent, depending on how long the window would be.
    Yes this would leave a door open for BOP to be completely redesigned. Yes i concur, YES, DO IT NAOW BLIZ!!
    Im sorry but i just cant understate how terrible that talent is...Most bring talent since the days of Vengeance.

  4. #2244
    Quote Originally Posted by Criminalle View Post
    Yes this would leave a door open for BOP to be completely redesigned. Yes i concur, YES, DO IT NAOW BLIZ!!
    Im sorry but i just cant understate how terrible that talent is...Most bring talent since the days of Vengeance.
    At this point? Unless it proves unworkable, don't get your hopes up.

  5. #2245
    Any1 managed to get a respond about finishing-casting-consuming Empowered Moonkin buff?
    And so far they said the first tuned down was focus on single target. they tuned down: starfire, wrath, moonfire and Stellar Flare and even Treants.
    I hope they are not ok with it. next one will focus on aoe. I hope they do increase Hurricane dmg.

    Many may not have same concerns as I have about the spec. But right now I concern about this spec will be boring and CMs; how moonkins will work in low-ilvl scaling.
    I fear once again I will either have to resto-heal it or another dps class. (and tbh, it shouldnt be that way in WoD anymore)

  6. #2246
    So from testing what are the stat weights looking like? Ive not been testing as much as I could but from the little Ive done Straight mastery seems meh. I was testing around with haste=mastery>crit Build and getting pretty good results but my testing pool has been really small.

  7. #2247
    Quote Originally Posted by Criminalle View Post
    I Disagree.

    If you reed the toooltip for every single dot in the moonkin arsenal it implies that at which point u cast it during the eclipse cycle is an important and deciding factor in the effectiveness of the spell. This was the case at the start of the beta when Dots could snapshot. They removed the snapshotting but kept that mechanic as a core, making the niche of the dots, moot. this is a design flaw as a new change to the clas mechanic rendered a gameplay design pointless.

    Then you have BOP which looks like it would be amazing live with the current dot durations, but is almost pointless in the beta.

    These changes and that talents make the specc seem like they are not sure what to do with it. It is just the way it feels. I like the sine wave personaly thats not my issue. My issue is lvl 100 talents and Dots. If anyone feels liek these 2 things are in a good place please explain to me why. For me right now they just feel like "pick x talent and do x% more dmg" and dots just feel like "maintain uptime and do x amount dmg"
    So because they changed the mechanic without changing the description into "more" fitting (as it still fits it, just not that well) they have no clue what they're doing?
    Snapshot removal was made for a reason and it was well justified.

    Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean its a design flaw.

    Those changes makes it seem like they know what they're doing.
    All 3 lvl 100 talents are different to each other, they change our rotation in their own way and have their own niches. DPS talents are just "hey, pick this talent for some dps increase and a little rotational difference". If you really want totally new rotation, then just go and reroll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Criminalle View Post
    Yes this would leave a door open for BOP to be completely redesigned. Yes i concur, YES, DO IT NAOW BLIZ!!
    Im sorry but i just cant understate how terrible that talent is...Most bring talent since the days of Vengeance.
    Yet it would lead us to same problem as with dot snapshotting eclipse, which is something Blizzard already went against.

  8. #2248
    Deleted
    Starfire right now is just takes too long to cast at 3 second base time. It's almost as beneficial to spam moonfire during the lunar phase on a single target fight. Considering many fights have a wide degree of movement involved it's not really viable to be timing your near 3 second casts between periods of movement. Cancelling one of these casts for movement requirements is a big drop to DPS.

    For me it harks back to a time when we used to do the moonkin shuffle dance in Cataclysm during solar as it provided great dps throughput on multi target fights.

    Stellar Flare feels like an ability you can choose if you want to add a bit more excitement to your rotation. I'm not really sure what the idea is with the spell.

    You have Balance of Power which suggests itself towards single of possibly 2 target fights in maintaining constant uptime on buffs whilst freeing up GCD's for other spells.

    You have Euphoria which at the moment for me is the talent of choice to provide any sort of speed to the rotation to allow you to be less penalised during movement fights and has a nice throughput with Soul of The Forest.

    Stellar Flare just doesn't seem to add any benefit, you could argue its an extra dot for multi target fights but the added cast time and inability to get the maximum benefit out of it on multi target (only one cast can be at middle of bar) i'm not entirely sure what its desired purpose it. You can of course cast on other targets at any point and the change in damage is insignificant enough to make this viable. However, since they have pretty much halved the damage in the latest build i imagine this was not the initial intention.

    I get the impression that we are supposed to be intelligent with our choices of spell to use such that if we choose to cast a spell with a long cast time we should not be expecting to move. The problem is the DPS increase of this over dot spamming with starfall fillers during lunar is so negligible that the loss of mobility and the punishment of cancelling one of those casts makes this not a desirable method of DPS during lunar phase. Solar is ok because of the new changes to sunfire and it's AOE ability and wrath's decent cast time. It is quick enough to provide flexibility in decision making.

    You can see a similar trend in healing and why resto druid and holy priest have initially been very strong. Their ability to cast instant spells in encounters has given them a definite advantage.

    I'm fine with the thought process of choosing the right spell for the right time in an encounter, what I won't be OK with is unbalance brought into classes because some are simply far better in movement situations than others. 3 seconds to cast a main rotational spell is just too long. It's nearly a second above that of say any mage main DPS rotation spell i.e. Fireball, Arcane Blast, Frostbolt.

    I mean you could of course always make Starfire always critical strike and crit strike chance increase its chance and turn it into something like Chaos Bolt, but even this spell for warlocks has a 2.88 second base cast time so i don't see why Starfire is seen as such an awesome spell that it requires this cast time.

    Do people concur with this or are you happy with where this is currently sitting in the rotation?

  9. #2249
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by QuadEarz View Post
    Starfire right now is just takes too long to cast at 3 second base time. It's almost as beneficial to spam moonfire during the lunar phase on a single target fight.
    That is simply not true. Outside of the buff you get to the DD of your dot when you reach eclipse peak, the DPET of Starfire is about twice the DPET of MF. While I agree with you that Starfire's long cast time is very punishing during movement, I don't think it's a problem. Once you get used to an encounter you will know when you can expect to be moving, and time your SF casts around that. Also SF has a slightly higher (around 5% I believe) DPET than wrath to make up for this exact problem.

  10. #2250
    Quote Originally Posted by QuadEarz View Post
    Stellar Flare just doesn't seem to add any benefit, you could argue its an extra dot for multi target fights but the added cast time and inability to get the maximum benefit out of it on multi target (only one cast can be at middle of bar) i'm not entirely sure what its desired purpose it. You can of course cast on other targets at any point and the change in damage is insignificant enough to make this viable. However, since they have pretty much halved the damage in the latest build i imagine this was not the initial intention.
    If a target is going to live for 20s, Stellar Flare has about three times the DPET of a nuke (before empowerment or set bonus). At moderate levels of mastery, it is stronger than Sunfire (single target), no matter where you are in the Eclipse cycle.

  11. #2251
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Erdluf View Post
    If a target is going to live for 20s, Stellar Flare has about three times the DPET of a nuke (before empowerment or set bonus). At moderate levels of mastery, it is stronger than Sunfire (single target), no matter where you are in the Eclipse cycle.
    Can you give me an example of a boss fight where there is a mob that will only last 20 seconds? Typically in that situation it will be a group of mobs and then surely sunfire outweighs stella flare because of the AOE aspect of it. In either case it certainly does appear that its only really worth going for on fights where there are additional mobs that will only last a short period in which case you would choose stella flare over say wrath/starfire. In which case you then choose to use your starsurge procs on Starfall instead.

    Either way i don't really feel that it plays very well into the class as a lvl 100 talent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    That is simply not true. Outside of the buff you get to the DD of your dot when you reach eclipse peak, the DPET of Starfire is about twice the DPET of MF. While I agree with you that Starfire's long cast time is very punishing during movement, I don't think it's a problem. Once you get used to an encounter you will know when you can expect to be moving, and time your SF casts around that. Also SF has a slightly higher (around 5% I believe) DPET than wrath to make up for this exact problem.
    Is this DPET assuming that you are spamming moonfire on GCD or is this the DPET of moonfire when cast once and the dot ticking to finish?

  12. #2252
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by QuadEarz View Post
    Is this DPET assuming that you are spamming moonfire on GCD or is this the DPET of moonfire when cast once and the dot ticking to finish?
    It is only the DD of the moonfire.

  13. #2253
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    The whole class screams faceroll in singletarget. Seriously, the two single target test last night I just followed what my addon told me. Theres absolutely nothing hard about moonkin single target, no matter what talent you take.
    .
    Sorry if I've missed something in this (now) very long thread, but what is this AddOn you've mentioned a couple of times? Thanks

  14. #2254
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffers123 View Post
    Sorry if I've missed something in this (now) very long thread, but what is this AddOn you've mentioned a couple of times? Thanks
    Just an addon that basically just shows what spells you should cast next, still in alpha phase and only has single target included in it

    And no, its not public

    @QuadEarz

    Starfire having 3sec base cast is fine, nothing wrong with it. Moonfire spam on single target is never better than hard casting Starfires (assuming target doesnt die during the starfire cast) and spamming Moonfire to multiple targets (having one up in every target) is always better than harcasting Starfire to one (assuming targets wont die in a few seconds).

    Movement punishing our dps is how it should be. I dont know what you want from this game, but if you just want to cast everything while moving then go play some game like Wildstar, it seems to be a better fit for you.

    Stellar Flare is supposed to be a dps talent that adds a spell to your priority system.
    Balance of Power is supposed to be a dps talent that basically removes dots from your priority system (single target)
    Euphoria is supposed to be a dps talent that neither adds or removes a spell, but changes the priority system feeling (rather than the system itself)

    Stellar Flare adds extreme benefit to multidot, its cast time is the same as our gcd - effectively having the same cast time as Moonfire or
    Sunfire. Its damage difference between 0 point and peak eclipses is minimal, meaning it deals near maximun damage all the time its on.
    Its damage nerf was justified and made it to be onpar with BoP on single target. Its superior on multitarget by far which seemed like their initial intention.

    I've no idea where you got your dot+starfall spam being nearly as good as hardcasting starfires and using starsurges from? Its not the case, not even close. But hey, feel free to do shit dps if you want.

    Resto Druids and Holy Priests are currently strong because hots are way too strong.

    You say you're not fine with unbalance brought into classes by movement dps, yet you've played this game this far.
    I suggest you pick a melee class, then you can just go and whack all the time even while moving - or just reroll the game.
    Last edited by lappee; 2014-08-24 at 03:52 PM.

  15. #2255
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Just an addon that basically just shows what spells you should cast next, still in alpha phase and only has single target included in it

    And no, its not public
    So, you're already depriving yourself from all the fun that is to be had with the new Eclipse mechanic? It sounds like an interesting AddOn. I guess it would be great to have, given that it is likely updated dynamically with stats, both static and on proc. I might have to tinker with this myself now! *smirk*

  16. #2256
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffers123 View Post
    So, you're already depriving yourself from all the fun that is to be had with the new Eclipse mechanic? It sounds like an interesting AddOn. I guess it would be great to have, given that it is likely updated dynamically with stats, both static and on proc. I might have to tinker with this myself now! *smirk*
    I've hated the eclipse mechanic for pve from the very beginning.
    The addon calculates stats and compares dps between the spells when they actually hit, but it doesnt have any trinket procs etc included (aka it doesnt care if trinket proc expires during cast, it'll require some more work on it)

  17. #2257
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Its damage difference between 0 point and peak eclipses is minimal, meaning it deals shit damage all the time its on.
    Fixt.

    So if my math is right, the direct dmg of moonfire with lunar peak buff is equal to the dmg of unempwered starfires?

    45*2/1.5 = 60 vs 180/3 = 60

    Mastery affects both so didn't include that. In practice I seem to get more dmg out of unempowered starfires though, don't know why.

  18. #2258
    Stood in the Fire Arberian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darlissa View Post
    Fixt.

    So if my math is right, the direct dmg of moonfire with lunar peak buff is equal to the dmg of unempwered starfires?
    No, 1/2 of Starfire's damage.
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  19. #2259
    Sorry been busy the last week or 2, any rotational changes I need to put into simcraft?

  20. #2260
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Arberian View Post
    No, 1/2 of Starfire's damage.
    As you can see I divided them by their cast times.

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